Just wanted to update everyone. I haven't done too much more today in the way of contacting anyone. Pretty wiped out from the last week and a half. So, today, I kind of took a breather.

Will resume more work in the coming days and weeks (and forever really). Just needed to take a rest day.

Thanks all for your support and encouragement. It has been hard, but I do think I'm doing the right things...just have lots more to come.

VT,


FYI. It is recommended that partners stay off of each other's threads. You should not be reading Hiker's thread.

AM

OK, now I need some advice on what to do next. I am trying to do all the right things, but I know I am missing things and I feel like I am not doing things fast enough or in the right way.

I have confessed everything to my bf, to my family and to many of my friends (although there are still some to go).

I have contacted OM#2's wife. I am still trying to figure out a way to find OM#1's wife to contact her, but so far haven't been successful.

I have sent no contact emails to my exes.

I have enabled key logging software and given all pws on all my accounts to my bf.

I have been communicating all of my whereabouts and what I am doing at all times to my bf.

I don't travel much at work, but have talked to my boss about not traveling at all. I am starting to WAH when a man I used to date is in the office so I do not have contact with him.

I have not communicated with any other men.

I have stopped focusing on the money scam that my ex and his new wife pulled on me and left it in the hands of the police.

I changed my phone numbers and my email so only my bf, my family and a few women friends have it.

I am evaluating all other things I am involved with in my life to figure out how they have affected me or my relationships in the past, if at all.

I am reading all the MB info, as well as some other books about how to change your life and not cheat and lie.

I went to church the other day for the first time in a long time. The sermon on that day was so relevant to my situation, it was spooky.

I have called a couple counselors, and today I am hoping to find someone and set up a first appt.

I am trying to focus on the positive things in my life. I am trying to rebuild myself. My bf has stuck by me so far, but he is struggling a lot with it and I don't know whether he will be able to get past it in the long run.

Last night, my bf asked a question that made me realize that I still have accounts on some dating sites I have used in the past (although they are not activate or visible). It seems so obvious now that I feel stupid not having thought of that and deleted all of those completely, without him bringing it up. I know I am probably missing lots of other things too.

Whether or not my bf will be able to hang in there with me and get past this, I need to get this right for me. I want to stop living in the past and start focusing on the future and doing it right this time instead of making the mistakes over again. So, I need your help.

Please let me know what things I may be missing and how to prioritize what I should be doing.

VT - I'd like to discuss your relationship with HH.

Do you realize that you are currently not safe for him? Yes, you're making changes. But there are no guarantees they will stick. Not even YOU can guarantee that.

You're currently an alcoholic in the first throes of sobriety. Your pouring all the booze down the drain and not going to the bars. But you aren't there yet. Someone is that situation is told to NOT be in a relationship for two reasons: it hinders their recovery and they are a danger to whoever they are in the relationship with, because they are prone to relapse.

You are currently not safe for your bf.

You are right, you need to get this right for YOU. And part of getting it right is removing your selfish behavior.

Why are you in this relationship? Is it for his good or your own? Because if you're honest with yourself about who you are, there is little good you can provide him now that has any substance, and you cannot promise him good in the future.

You're with him because you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to keep him around to make you feel good.

This relationship will keep you from progressing. It will keep you from doing the work you must do. It will focus your energy away from your self-improvement and funnel it in to him.

So, why are you with him? Is it for you or him?


The right thing is to let this man go while you work on yourself, rather than keep him in limbo.

Vibrissa -

Thanks for your insights. They are really appreciated and make me think.

You are right that I can make no guarantees to him or myself. I have intellectually known that, and perhaps even said those words. I want to be optimistic and believe that I will be successful, but I can't make guarantees.

HH and I have discussed whether it would be best to stay together or take a break - temporarily or for good - and we have struggled with what is right. On the one hand, we want to practice all of the principles of MB with the H & O, POJA, and build a new foundation, etc. On the other, I know I've got lots of work to do and I know that I won't get it all right as I learn how it all works and should be done.

While HH has been wonderful to me, he is struggling with all of his emotions in the process and I don't want to hurt him, and I can see sometimes how much I still am, even with the changes I am making.

I guess my overriding thought has been that when people work together through tough times, they come out stronger. But, perhaps I need to challenge my thinking on that, along with all the other ingrained ideas I have held that I am now re-thinking.
Perhaps the basis for that thought is selfishness.

I will need to think about this more and talk to HH about it.

Thanks for challenging me. I appreciate it even though it is sometimes difficult to hear.

Vibrissa -

Just wondered if you had thoughts too on what things to prioritize as next steps I should be working on?

Thanks,
VT

Armymama -

Thanks for your insights. I understand that it may not be recommended, and I would not have read them if HH did not give me permission to do so. I've also given him permission to read mine and I appreciate his thoughts when he chooses to read them.

But, given your advice, I've since asked if he'd prefer that we did not continue. I will honor whatever he requests.

Thanks again for your advice.

Typically, when a couple pulls through a time like this they have several factors in their favor:

1)They have made a solemn commitment to each other and their community and possibly their God to work through the bad times.
2)There is a foundation of good times to build on.
3)There are usually shared children and a family involved who depend on their success.

You have not made a commitment to one another to share your lives together. You're dating. You're 'trying each other out' and so far, you have FAILED the test. You are not a good fit because you are untrustworthy. It will take YEARS before you become trustworthy.

There is no foundation to build on. You've been together 4 months and have been behaving inappropriately the WHOLE time. The foundation of your relationship is rotten. ANY house you build on this foundation will crumble.

There are no children and no family dependent on your recovery. No external motivation. Only an internal desire to change, and while that is admirable, it is also easy to rationalize that motivation away. You've managed to rationalize the way you live so you can sleep at night so you KNOW your mind is capable of this.

Finally, your history demonstrates that you are unable to have healthy relationships with men. You fracture yourself by spinning webs of lies to get different men to meet different needs. This creates an emptiness within you that you try to fill with more lies and other men. It demonstrates a fundamental unhappiness with yourself. You don't believe that any man will accept you for who you are, thus the lies. This ensures that you will never achieve intimacy with any man as all they love are the lies you've given them.

It is a fundamentally sick way to live. The answer to your problem is NOT another man and another relationship. It is to learn to love and accept yourself. This has to be achieved WHEN THERE IS NO MAN IN YOUR LIFE. This way you cannot base your value on your desirability to a man, or men. Because then your worth will always be linked to that man.

You need to clean up your life, for yourself. Live in a way where your actions are admirable and good. And eventually you will create a sense of self worth based on YOUR actions, not on your ability to catch and keep a man.

You're doing all this work, you say for yourself. But your goal, right now, is to have a successful relationship with your BF. That entangles your personal progress with the strength of your relationship. If the relationship succeeds, if your BF stays with you, then your sense of self worth comes from HIM and his approval of you, not from within.

As for your priorities.

1) Continue looking for the Other OW and confess to her.
2) Discontinue all relationships with ANY men. Men are your drug of choice, they are how you affirm your self-worth. You are incapable of healthy relationships with them. Thus, you must cut them off cold-turkey.
3) Live a life of honesty with EVERYONE you are around. Avoid intimate relationships with men in your search for self-worth. Do this for a few years so you can establish your worth for YOURSELF without the reference or approval of a man. THEN slowly begin to delve into relationships, practicing the principles of Care, Protection and Radical Honesty.

VT since you've been invited to read HH's thread, I'd ask you to go read his post. He's obsessed with being betrayed again. He is hurting and worried. His gut is telling him NOT to trust you and he's being torn because he WANTS to trust you.

But you aren't trustworthy. A few changes over the course of a couple weeks doesn't build trust.

It will take him YEARS to fully trust you, if ever. A marriage takes 2 YEARS to restore after infidelity. What helps is that there was a time BEFORE the infidelity that the BS can cling to and hope for a return of.

You don't have that.

You have never been trustworthy to your BF. So all he has is hope. But hope isn't enough. His mind is trying to tell him he isn't safe, because he isn't. His heart is telling him to give you a chance and ignore his mind.

But his mind won't shut up.

And it SHOULDN'T shut up. It is the only thing in this relationship looking out for HIS interest. You aren't, and he isn't.

The constant pull between mind and heart will eat him up.

And you're willing to put him through this for your own sense of wellbeing?

What does that say about you?

This is long and probably rambling because I am trying to sort through all the information being given and how it relates to everything going on with me. So please bear with me. I offer up these conflicting thoughts for discussion purposes and so I can better understand all the advice given, not because I want to justify any position I have. Right now, I really don't have a position I am advocating for myself. I am playing devil's advocate a bit here so I can flesh out a better understanding.

First, I don't want to be a selfish person, and a lot of what you all have said resonates with me, so I need to look at it very carefully.

I guess what I struggle with most in these discussions are these things, so it is these ideas that I need help to walk through in my mind...

It seems the message that everyone is giving to HH, and to me to some extent too, is that I will fail - that I have little chance to succeed. I'm a lost cause - or very likely so.

I have a hard time with that concept. I don't believe in failure as an option; I believe in succeeding in everything I set my mind to doing in life. I believe that if you want something bad enough and you work hard enough, you won't fail. It might take a lot of work and a lot of trying, but I don't believe you should go into anything thinking failure is inevitable or even an option. I am not one who gives up easily and I have been very successful in a lot of things that many people didn't believe I could ever do - simply being able to walk is one. My gut and my mind believe that this too is something at which I can and will succeed.

Yes, I believe a person needs all the right tools and resources in order to succeed, but if you look for them and study them and work with people along the way, then you will succeed. I also believe in putting in safeguards at all the places that failure could occur so that it doesn't, but to do that doesn't equate to going in with an attitude toward failure and yet I feel like people want us both to have that attitude.

I do acknowledge that previously in this area of my life, I have not sought out much in the way of tools to help me, nor have I reached out to the people who could help ensure success. The biggest thing I have struggled with previously throughout my life is asking for help and exposing my weaknesses to people. It is that basic thing that has been the basis for many, if not most, of my lies.

So, this is another area where the message I am getting seems conflicting. I struggle with the message that I seem to be getting from some here - the message that when I have finally done that (exposed all of the horrors of who I am and what I've done and how weak of a person I am, and I've done that to the people who mean most to me in the world and then ask for and seek their help), I am now hearing that at least some of those people shouldn't give it. It feels like I am being told to admit all my failings and ask for help...but don't ask for it from the people to whom you've admitted your failings and who know your weaknesses and know what areas you need help with?

Maybe it is extraordinarily selfish for me to ask for help from my bf, who has been hurt so badly by me. Maybe it is extraordinarily selfish to ask for help from a good friend of mine who has been on the other end of an EA and to tell her that I was someone who did that to my bf. Maybe it is extraordinarily selfish of me to ask my ex-H to watch the kids while I deal with my failures again of lying and betraying someone else in a similar way as I betrayed him. Maybe it is extraordinarily selfish of me to ask my family to forgive me and support me even after violating some of the morals that they so strongly hold. Isn't asking for help, in general, inherently selfish? I recognize that all of these things are probably exceedingly selfish, so does that mean I shouldn't? And if I don't ask for help from these people, then how can I improve?

The other thing I struggle with in the advice I've been given is that in order to recover and change my ways that I need to face all the horror I have caused and face it head on. Facing these people who I have lied to and and betrayed and cheated, and knowing in my heart every day how much I've hurt them, and then asking for their help is the most difficult thing I have ever done. It is a horror every day to know and see what I have done to them. It seems like breaking off a relationship with my bf, or my friends, or my family would be the easy way out. I wouldn't see the hurt every day and be reminded of the horror I caused. I realize though that not breaking off a relationship may remind that person each day of the horrors too, so I am conflicted here.

Finally, I was told that there is no external motivation for me to change, only my own internal motivation, which has failed me before and therefore is likely to fail me again. I don't understand when people say I don't have external motivation. Isn't admitting my wrongs and facing what I have done to those people every day, and knowing that if I fail again, I will fail them a huge external motivation? To me, it feels that way. If I fail again, I will fail ALL of these people. I will fail my bf. I will fail his kids and his family. I will fail my kids. I will fail my parents. I will fail my friends. And of course, I will fail myself. Yes, I've failed them before, but hid it from some of them to some extent. But, if I fail now, I will fail them ALL in full view and with ALL of their full knowledge of my past. Very scary to contemplate doing that to them. My family and my close friends are the very core of me. They are what I want most in the world. To risk them is to risk EVERYTHING I am.

Before, the majority of what I have always felt is that I was failing myself, rather than thinking of how I was failing others. I spent lots of energy and effort in hiding my failures from other people so noone would know what a miserable, weak person I was - and I never asked for help ever. Very few people ever knew of my failures. I'm not saying that is right. It isn't. I am just stating how it was. But now, when everyone knows, everyone is watching me and counting on me to do the right thing. If that is not external motivation, I don't know what is. That is some of the most powerful motivation I could ever have to change and it is a very powerful motivation to want to succeed. I am a person with a very strong internal motivation to succeed at everything, and I want this. To add the motivation to not fail these people only adds to that.

Still, I can't discount the fact that it is very selfish to ask any one of the people I've hurt to help me. Why should they? Why should they take a risk on me? Why should they risk themselves for something that cannot be guaranteed?

But it also scares me that this is the kind of thinking that got me here in the first place - why admit to people your weaknesses? Why expose failings that will disappoint them? Why should they have to suffer because I am such a failure? Why should they help me - someone who has failed before and hurt them badly, so why ask them for help? So I didn't ever before.

I am afraid that if the message I internalize here and now from you all is that, if I expose myself and my failings and I ask for help, and then the people who I value most in the world don't give it, then what motivation do I have to do it again? Then, I feel like I will surely fail. That scares me.

I want to change. I want to succeed. I am horribly afraid of failure. To screw this up means losing me forever and that scares me beyond what I can express.

Yes, asking for help from people I've hurt seems exceptionally selfish to me because I am asking for help for ME. I recognize that it is for ME. I am asking them to risk themselves for ME. Selfish!

So, then one has to ask themselves why would I do such a thing...do I really think I worth it or worthy of that? Most of you are saying I am not. And there is, and perhaps always been, a little voice inside myself that has said that to myself all my life. Am I worth it? And a part of me listens to the external voices that say no and to the people who have always pushed me down and teased me. But, in my gut, I reject that. I reject that I am not worth it. I believe I am worth it. I am at heart a good person with a lot to offer. Yes, I've got a lot of failings - bad ones. And because of that, I don't believe I am worthy of anyone's trust in me. But I do believe that I will succeed at changing my faults, and I do believe I'm ultimately worth the risk.

So, in summary, I guess the main gist of what I am wondering is:
- Should I get out of relationship because I can't guarantee success, and isn't that setting yourself up for failure?
- Shouldn't I facing the horror each day of seeing what hurt I have caused vs. dropping a relationship, which makes me feel like I'm "getting off easy"
- Isn't asking for help inherently selfish, and if so, should one NOT ask for help from any of the people who are important in your life (which are inevitably the ones who were hurt)?
- If you can't ask for help from the people most important to you, then without that support, how can anyone really have a chance to succeed?
- By getting out of a relationship, isn't that admitting that I am not worth the risk? And by saying that, isn't that again setting yourself up for failure?
- Or is the bottom line really that ANY risk to someone else must be paramount here and supercede any of the other arguments? Is that what people are ultimately saying here: save others before yourself and in doing so, maybe you'll be saved too?

Thanks for any insights. I appreciate it.

I don't think you are a failure at all, I actually think you are very good at getting what you want in life, and have done quite well for yourself that way.



I would say that you most definitely are NOT worth the risk, not for someone who has no kids with you, and not more than 4 months invested. It's nothing personal, I'd say the same thing to anyone who was dating a drunk, a drug addict, or a pathological liar. I would never suggest to anyone I cared about to invest time with such a person, that's all.

As for setting yourself up for failure, HH would indeed be setting himself up for failure by investing more time with you, that is my opinion. I think he'd be much better off finding someone who has not created a pattern in life of lies and cheating.

AGG

I want to clarify my position because I think I may not have explained myself well. Then I will go reread your post and see if I have more insight to offer.

You are not doomed to failure. You CAN recover. However, currently your sense of self worth is based wholly on your interactions with men. It is why you lie to keep them around. Because you cannot base your self worth on another's judgement of you, but on your own judgement of yourself it is not a good idea for you to be in a relationship. By default you will seek HIS approval. Your self worth will hinge on making HIM happy.

Your self worth should come from within as you do things that are good and admirable. That is a much healthier self worth than one that is based on a relationship, your ability to get a man, or keep a man or men.

And no, you can't guarantee success. But you can work darn hard to make it happen.

As you are RIGHT NOW you are dangerous. You haven't even had a month of sobriety yet. Don't you see that you are dangerous?

No, it isn't selfish to ask for help from those who love us. That is why they are there, to help us. But HH has only been in your life for 4 MONTHS!! 4 months of lies. He doesn't love you because he doesn't really even know you, he loves the lies you told him and now he loves the hope that he has that you will become a better person.

I'd suggest that the great compatibility he THINKS you two have is itself a lie. You are skilled at keeping men around. You know how to play that game. You know how to make yourself not just desirable, but irresistible to a man you want. How much of ACTUAL YOU does he know? Do YOU even know who the ACTUAL YOU is?

Your family and close girlfriends can provide you with support, but you've only been in this man's life for 4 months and you've badly damaged him. It is selfish for you to ask him to put his life on hold while you work to a goal you have no idea of when you will achieve.

Right now, based on your past history with this relationship you AREN'T worth the risk. That isn't setting you up for failure, that should motivate you to become better so that there IS no risk involved. A man shouldn't risk infidelity when entering into a relationship with you. The normal risk of maybe we're not compatible, maybe she want's kids and I don't - those are common human risks based on different goals and desires. Everyone risks that getting into a relationship. NO ONE should have to risk potential infidelity. And that is the risk he is taking - that you can be faithful.

I mean look at your past history - he took that risk once and it has gotten him 4 months of lies and deceit. You didn't come clean, he had to out you. You'd still be lying to his face right now if he didn't confront you.

Eliminate the risk of infidelity and you are worth having a relationship with.

So, in summary, I guess the main gist of what I am wondering is:

- Should I get out of relationship because I can't guarantee success, and isn't that setting yourself up for failure?

No, that is not the reason for getting out of this relationship. The reason is to avoid foisting yourself on this man, to get yourself together before joining with another man, because you have a "man addiction", and many other reasons including the reason "It is the kindest, most unselfish thing you can do now is let this man go". This has nothing to do with "success" or "failure".

- Shouldn't I facing the horror each day of seeing what hurt I have caused vs. dropping a relationship, which makes me feel like I'm "getting off easy"

No, no, no, it is not YOU who is getting off easy. It is Happyhiker who you would be BLESSING by breaking up with him. You can and should face yourself and what you have done to your life and to hurt other's lives. But you should face this alone, with counselors, and with girlfriends...NOT with MEN. MEN are like alcohol to you, they feed your addiction and cover up things you need to work on in yourself. You need to stay away from MEN for a while. Period.

- Isn't asking for help inherently selfish, and if so, should one NOT ask for help from any of the people who are important in your life (which are inevitably the ones who were hurt)?

What kind of help are you asking for? If you ask for counseling and help from girlfriends to become a better person it is most UNSELFISH of you. If you are thinking of asking for some kind of help from HH or ANY OTHER MAN, FUGGETABOUTIT!!!! THAT would be the height of selfish behavior since these MEN are your addictive substance and you will easily play with them (and ruin thier lives and lay your drama on them) first appearing needy, then manipulating them....as you always have.

- If you can't ask for help from the people most important to you, then without that support, how can anyone really have a chance to succeed?

You can ask for help from appropriate people such as paid counselors, experts in human behavior, sponsors such as in Sex Addicts anomous, etc. Even girlfriends could be some help if you dont dump too much drama on them at a time. But just NOT MEN> DO NOT ASK MEN TO HELP YOU IN ANY WAY!!!!!

- By getting out of a relationship, isn't that admitting that I am not worth the risk? And by saying that, isn't that again setting yourself up for failure?

Being in a relationship should not be your self worth benchmark or a way for you to get an "A" in accepting yourself. Getting out of a relationship should have no bearing on "You are not worthy of the risk" because self worth should not be dependent on being IN or OUT of any relationship with MEN. And no... you would be setting yourself up for failure if you STAYED in realtionship with HH now. Or any man. That would stunt your personal growth and important changes you need to do now. It sounds like you never thought of being without a MAN or a relationship with a MAN or chasing MEN. IT is time to learn to be alone without any MEN!

- Or is the bottom line really that ANY risk to someone else must be paramount here and supercede any of the other arguments? Is that what people are ultimately saying here: save others before yourself and in doing so, maybe you'll be saved too?

This is part of it, you will only be saved if you break away from your addiction, MEN, and start living a new life involving getting to know yourself, getting to be a moral person, getting to like yourself, and learning to live alone. Then, and only then, will you be ready to meet men again and have healthy relationships. If you jump the gun and drop into a mans life again and leech emotionally off him like you always have, then your precious and important growth will be stunted and you will never be ready for a healthy honest unselfish relationship with ANY MAN!!!!! EVER!!!!!!

Please take a time out from MEN to focus on your personal growth!! It is all important!

I am very bothered by the fact, VTmom, that I haven't heard any more from you about OMW1. What happened to finding her?

Why is there all this focus on yourself when you still have a victim out there who needs to know the truth about what you and her H did to her behind her back?

I think she has found finding OM#1W difficult. I am going to help her with the search.

VTmom, you can find OM#1W by contacting a PI and getting information from him/her. There was a poster named now_what who had trouble finding contact info for OM, and a PI got it for him in 1 day for $55. This information can be obtained by someone skilled at finding people very quickly and rather cheaply. Consider it a good investment in saving your soul.

Also, the reason we are asking you to take a time-out from HH is because you are so insecure you constantly seek out attention from men to validate your sense of self-worth. You need to develop your own sense of self worth without a man around.