Me too cause her reactions that led to the affair were from his EXTREME IB. Although we we will all agree that it was not reason for the A behavior. We should give credit to her for at least any reaction from the poor relationship. Many would have done more worse to themselves. I have seen it.


But she does have to prove to him she would never again act such a way. He won't trust her if he doesn't respect her and that starts with her.

Nope, her reactions were due to poor boundaries. The lack of personal self-control.

His affair too, lest anyone think I'm picking on her.

Yet it's still her here, so she has to work the program, regardless of his behavior if it's her plan to work the program.

The idea behind marriage builders is that it's not about the past, but about the future. Talk about the past is meaningless. One has to act in the fashion they want the future to be.

Ok .lets play the adult decsion game then. See I agree it would not only be an example of growth and maturity for her to do a long plan A, but also would show WH an example of who she is now. An example that could not be denied. But I don't think she is that strong, sorry Hitch. Truth is that she can be. I would love it if she were. It would be pressure making diamonds and a chance for WH to test her and play with her untill she hates him.

I don't think she will love him after a certain point. Prove me wrong hitch, I would love it if you did.


Now what should she allow during the 6 month plan A? anything he wants to do? I thought much of her recovery had to do with sticking up for herself and not accepting the lack of respect that she used as a reason for her A. I know the A was vile but she was living with an entitled boy who never took the time to be with her. Instaed of telling him to straighten out or...she got even. Yes Hitch you sure showed him huh? But he didn't care how she felt either for a long time before. I think its complicated enough to have a letter stating the issues and having S Harley calling the Plan A time.


Your right about the past being behind Ex. I agree you must act on what you want the future to be. Only you controls you and so on, but at what point does she have a valid issue where she can address WH on? If he doesn't commit to the principles of MB its a waste of time anyway. How long before he gets that message and how will she get him to take it seriuosly?


I am just against her doing a long Plan A while he punishes her for being human. Maybe if he doesn't pull a houdini again during that time or flaunt his OW it will show he is getting over his hurt pride and it will be OK.


JLs been off since 24th, waiting for his to come back before I give my final recomendation. I waiver because all these are good points.

Have you read some of the Plan A threads Hitch and braced yourself for H pushing your buttons? You will have to bear up to anything during this and not LB, DJ, or have a breakdown that would scare him.

Yes you have to be the adult for more time, but the difference there is help here and support for you no matter what. Convivnce your H that you are unigue and strong and have control over your life. That he is lucky he has you along with how you love him, and that it doesn't come cheap.

She does it for the 6 month period and if he doesn't wake up and fly right, she does the plan B telling him that she loves him but will no longer put up with his ways. If he liked what he saw the previous 6 months, he can end his LB behaviors and start meeting her needs. If not, she can respond to her attorney, his call.

Plan B is most effective with a good plan A.

Do plan A for 6 months, if he doesn't wake up, change to plan B.

No histrionics, no yo-yo, just a calculated plan that is worked.

I'm down with that. It would be the best way to accomplish what is needed while she builds herself up also.

Hitch, you have the ability and hold the controls. Get ready to act. Be ready for anything but don't sway from the plan. Are you aware of what to do and how to avoid blowing our plan A?

Plan out ..

What you will do when he does ...

How you will communicate with him...

How you would act IF all your needs were being met. What would be the perfect marriage.


I am concerned about the carrot and stick part. That is where I was waiting for JLs take on it.

What does she do when her heart breaks and he is out and about?

You must control your fertile imagination Hitch. Snoop quietly but don't react to negative things that you discover. That will be hard for you but you can do it. If you don't have proof hes with an OW, it didn't happen OK? Even if it does don't react and let it overwhelm you.


As far as I can see what you have to do is establish trust again with him before you address IB issues. You cannot use his behavior as an excuse for your A. That was something you did to satisfy your anger and frustration. I think you see that now even more clearly that it was a loveless selfish act. You will see it more as time goes on.

It takes a while for a guy to believe that thier wife is never going to betray them again. With me it took years with second wife. Never with the first. The closest I can describe it is in braveheart when he found out Robert the Bruce had betrayed him. Everything you are has been a lie and all your strength, conviction, and fight goes out of you.


It doesn't matter what part you had in it, its still that painful.


I thought JL could see and commuinicate very clearly to you how you were in charge and responsible for much of your own pain. That the boundaries you let be crossed were the reasons H didn't even know how he was hurting you. We all know if you ahd come here for help it would have avoided your A, if you had listened to the advice. Lessons learned.

Again though it is important that you communicate clearly with H at every stage in plan A and if B happens. I worry that in Plan A you will not defend your boundaries or develop new healthy ones that will protect you, and in turn your H and marraige. To me that equals false recovery and frustration. I/we want you to have the best marraige in the world, not just recover to to a fair one where the issues are glossed over only to be used again to cause separation.


Welcome to marraige builders

Hi Guys

Thanks for all your posts.

I have reviewed your posts and have some thoughts.

About 6 weeks ago the feedback I was getting on this site was that I have been using lots of carrot and not enough stick. So I have started to slowly assert my boundaries with my H and it seems to be working. Now that was not overnight and probably took me 3 times to communicate my boundaries to him but it worked, including one morning him coming home, and I had packed a bag for him and asked him to move out. Since I have been doing this, he has stopped staying out the night and is home every night, so this is good.

The next part I have been asserting myself is H IB, again I did this last Wednesday night when he said he would be home for dinner and sat in the pub drinking. The only thing I could have done better was wait until the following day to communicate my boundaries but the message would have still been the same 'that was completely disrespectful and I will not up with that'. Which I won't.

After my H had come home from his weekend away, I was quiet and withdrawn and when the time was right I told him this, I said to my H, the reason I was quiet and withdrawn is because your behaviour on weds night really upset me so I have withdrawn to protect myself, H then said but I was only having a pint, I then responded (calmy) "how would you feel if you had cooked me dinner and then I stayed out and did not bother coming home? Can you please take responsibility for your behaviour?" at which point he apologised and shortly after that we had sex for the first time since D Day.

Now you are saying I am in Plan Yo Yo, well I am not. Yes I do get upset at my H reactions, but I am a human and I would not love him very much if I didn't feel anything. Maybe I need to calm down and keep it in perspective a little and not think the worst but that that is it. I come on this site to vent, as my family and friends think he has treated me poorly and want me out of the situation, so I have nowhere to vent appart from here.
This does not mean I am venting at my H, I cannot remember the last time I vented at him, long time ago.

So I am going to give myself a pat on the back, I think I am doing very well. I do not think I have been Plan yo yo, I have been in Plan A, meeting him EN's, not doing any LB's and not expecting anything back. If I come here to vent then so be it. It does not mean I am venting or LB at my H.

Now this 6 months timescale, no I will not be staying in Plan A that long if my H continues his IB and disrespects me. If I do not see a change when I continue to assert my boundaries then I will move to Plan B. I will do this because if I don't he will lose complete respect for me for being such a doormat, and I will end up disliking him for his poor treatment.

I will stay as long as I see change. Again, I am understand now this won't be over night this will take some time. When I say change, I mean that he slowly stops his IB and starts to spend more time with me.

I know he loves me and I need to earn back his trust and love and this will take years, but this does not mean he can treat me poorly in the meantime.

Oh and the other thing, the one thing I am not doing in Plan A is communicating with him enough. So for instance, what Jim Flint raised about my thoughts about OM. So there will be lots more of that. One of the thing that I wasn't hapy about moving to Plan B was there was lots of things Ihadn't said so I will be doing that aswell.

I will also be saying to him when the time is right and his love bank starts to overflow, I need to now my DH, will you commit to rebuilding this marriage with me?

Thank you so much for your support.

Hitch x

Hi Constant

SH asked me about how I was feeling in my session last week, I said I am feeling ok, a bit drained but still determined. He said well that is great continue doing what your doing but as soon as you start doing too many LB's it will be time for you to get out of there.

Plan A is taking control of one's self ...it is NOT "acting nice" ~as if~ there was no infidelity eating away at your family .... infidelity hurts like battery acid poured on your skin

am I right?

heII yes I am right

so you scared and panicky betrayed ~~~> SPEAK UP

tell the truth

"This affair hurts me. This affair is going to destroy our family. Let's get help."

If your spouse does something really thoughtless ... SPEAK UP.

"What you just said (did) hurts me terribly."

"I feel wounded by your affair."

"My heart aches for the love we used to share."

But be careful ... don't get needy or whiney or weepy ... those are love-busters

it's a fine line between telling the truth about what hurts ... and staying away from LB behaviors

ASK for help from the board

if you are unsure if what you are doing is correct... examine how much self control you have at any given moment ... and if you are feeling in control of yourself ... you are probably right on the money !

if you feel yourself losing control ... step away and re-group

above taken from Pepperbands carrot and stick thread.

That all sounded very good Hitch. I agreed with JL when he said enough is enough and it is time for action or both of your parts. Sounds like there is improvment.

Is your H going to read the books? Is he going to participate in MB? Is that going to be one of the things you make a boundary?

Namely, that you won't be part of a marrige that doesn't come first. That you expect him to spend time with you and treat you like a partner not a trophy, or mommy, or whatever you want to call it.


Your marriage is not just a vehicle to get what you want, its also a means to love each other with commitment to the principles and disciplines that will keep it safe. He must care for you and your emotions. Not that he doesn't, but there is more to you than he seems to know. Its up to you to tell him.


The A was an outcome of a marraige that had trouble with intimacy and honest communication. Intimacy, trust, communication should be the basis of the marriage and will serve you better than anything else during your life and your marriage. If both of you don't put more time into those issues, even when you don't feel like it, the marriage realtionship is the least of your worries IMO.

Funny isn't it hitch? The pain associated with this has made you grow? It is said we all have relationships with each other just don't maintain them. The marriage relationship is one that can reveal who we are when we think we are OK and we are not.

I hope your H receives the challange with humility and excitment at how he can learn to be a more attentive husband. Everyone has been sensitive to how the A crushed him and i think that is why they want 6 months Plan A. I agree with S. Harley and your quote from Peps thread. I think if your H is honest he would too.

To me sex is the litmus paper test and shows the health of all the other parts of relationship. Unfortunatly it is used to fix problems rather than enjoying freely each other and cherishing the opportunity to be close. Its a short cut many times used in and out of marriage to have a relationship at any cost, even to the detriment of ourselves and hurt those we attempt to love. If we really loved someone with trust and intimacy sex can be that deep special part of the relationship and not the desparate act of seeking those things.

In 50 years you will have shared so many precious things with H that I can only pray that sex becomes part of the whole person you have become together. Your prioritys will be to maintain intimacy in your relationship first, sex naturally follows that.

This comes around to loving yourself Hitch and insisting on protecting you first. Your doing well in that, don't ever back down. Taking care of yourself IS taking care of your H too. Even if he is lost. Expect a good marriage, fight for it to improve, or it won't happen. I hope your H joins you.


TTYL

Hi Hitch,

Seems like you two are doing a little better, but not out of the woods yet, so to speak.

I think that one thing that you guys do not realize is that this seems to be a revenge affair on your H's part. That doesn't excuse it at all, but just my interp.

Ya know what, I see alot of older people around my place, and invariably it is the wife leading in walking and the husband barely able to keep up because he is old, tired, and most likely ill or somewhat disabled. On the other hand, do you think that either one would trade the other for someone else. Doubt it. They have had kids, raised them, gone thru thick and thin, and are still together. They all have long historiies. I know a woman here who is in her 70's and her H is ill. She is Russian, but so what, she has helped me with my garden. She and her H came here in the early 90s'. I can tell by just talking to her that she is strong, but worried about her H. That is all she talks about unless it is gardening. I can see the devotion, and her H probably spent himself devoting his life to her. Believe me Hitch, I am not dead or incapacitated yet, but that day will come. And, when it does and I look back I will know that the best thing I had was the devotion of my wife to me and our family.

You have gotten some fairly decent advise here, and probably from Harley, but I just feel some people are sort of playing into your hand. You ought to go back and re-read the comments from Mrs. Vanilla and Jim Flint. Imho you have hurt your H badly enough that it is going to take extraordinary effort to win his trust back. His affair and his staying away are bad, please don't read me wrong, but I think it is a reaction to You, and that is something you do not seem to have heard. Instead you seem to be dancing around. You are either devoted or you are not.

You're not young and you're not old. But, please don't run the risk of waking up some morning 10 years from now when you are in your 40's and bemoan the fact that you did not save your M, and that you do not have a family.

In my opinion you have a great deal of courage coming here and staying here to state your honest story. But, in my opinion you have to pee or get off the pot. Simple as that. I think your situation is unique, and considering both of your affairs you have to do an extraordinary effort on a PLan A at present, show him that you are devoted. If it doesn't work, well you have probably lost, and then move on. There are alot of women in this world who are faithful and would never have a reason to be here. Then, there are some who have not been faithful and are here. From what I have seen most of them are not worth the effort on the part of their BH's. I firmly believe that you are not one of them! But Hitch get off the pot and do your damndest to salvage this marriage despite your current feelings.

Hope the best for you.

Tom

Hi Tom

Thanks for taking time to catch up on my thread. It is good to hear from you again. Yes I do need to up the stakes with my DH to show him my devotion, I am doing a lot, but I could do more. I am worried sometimes about overkill though, appearing desperate and invading his space. So its a fine balance, one that I find difficult.



I am devoted, I admit I have had to lick my wounds a little, at times it has been very painful. I know this is of no consolation and I am in 2x4 territory here, but I never flaunted the OM in his face. I am not saying I am better in anyway, far from it.

I have seen him with 2 of the OW, they all live within about 5 miles, he took them to our favourite restaurants, one night he even came home about 1am with OW sat outside in the car. He has slept with about 4 OW that I know of, could be more.

I still have lots of nightmares about him and his OW, like he has fallen in love with them or they are all sat around laughing at me and other weird stuff. The only saving grace is that I know they don't mean anything to him, otherwise he would still be with them. I can forgive him, I just need to know he is not having any contact.

I think this is a major barrier for him though, in his first session with SH, he said that he thought I could not get over the OW and would not forgive him. This would have been an ideal opportunity for me to let him know I could but he needs to put certain things in place to make me feel safe, this was early marriage builders days and I didn't know this then.

So I need to communicate this to him, it is always about picking the right time for me to do this! When we are getting on I don't want to spoil it, and when he is withdrawn I think it goes on deaf ears. DH does constantly mention about me snooping and repeatedly said about you would not be able to handle it in the future if we bumped into OW. Again, I am not sure if this is how he really feels or this is just foggy wayward talk to put up barriers to reconciliation.

On the good side Tom, things are improving, ever so slightly. Which deep down I am very happy about. I probably have not said much about all the things I am doing to show my devotion, but I am really doing little things and often. Could do better though!

Hitch

Dear Hitch,



Here it goes:

Do you realise that thinking about OM and comparing him with your current situation is breaking no contact? Have you read Managing Memories and Dealing with Triggers? You need to learn how to NOT think about OM anymore, not to mention talk/write.

Have you read about Policy of Radical Honesty? Have your H read it? I think you need to tell your H what you need in order to reconcile and to protect yourself. You need him to go NC with these OWs, you need to know his whereabouts all day long for the rest of your lives together. In short, you need to set some boundaries, you don't need boundaries when everything is alright, you don't need to address IB's or violation of EPs, if these things are nonexistent. Unfortunately, this part of your M is not ok, so you need to work on it. Somewhere from the page 20 up till the end in Ivetz's thread people talk about boundaries in her case, truly good reading, I learned a lot from it. I also suggest you read Cloud, Townsend "Boundaries in Marriage".


You will eventually spoil your recovery if you don't tell him all your feelings and thoughts. It won't go on deaf ears if you dont love bust and use lots of "I feel" mantra. I also suggest that you just don't start R talk out of the blue, but ask him whether it is a good time for him to talk. And be honest about your feelings!

Do not pay any attention about his words about you snooping, this is common wayward blaah. Ignore and don't drop your guards! Trust, but verify.

With all my best,

Hello Hitch,

Remember how I said that men and women both need this?

YOU are voicing the same concerns as your H.

MB is NOT about changing your H.

IT IS ABOUT CHANGING THE ENVIRONMENT THE MARRIAGE IS IN!!!

Changing attitudes, behaviors, habits and assumptions.

Your H has the same fears as you do...

He fears what the OM means to you...

and that you will NEVER get over the OM...

and you fear what the OW means to him.

THAT is why you MUST tell him.

By you showing him that the OM is no longer part of your life in any way...

You will create the ENVIRONMENT to allow him to see the OM is no longer a threat and he will be able to forgive you...

Which THEN allows HIM to start showing protection for YOU by stopping the independent behavior and trying to hurt you because HE is hurting.

Makes sense doesn't it?

In his mind it would be crazy for him to lie down his sword while he thought you still had yours...

Remember that YOU need to be his REFUGE from the storm...

not the CAUSE of it.

Let your H see that the OM is not a part of your life...

that your H is your life.

You did not leave your H for the OM because...

You did not want the OM FULL TIME.

Just as an occasional addiction distraction.

Because you had not learned how to TELL YOUR H what was important to you.

YOU NOW KNOW HOW.

The same exists for your feelings of the threat of the OW to you when your H has learned how to protect the M.

He doesn't want them as anything but a destructive distraction from his feeling of losing you...

The threat of the OM to your H is gone because you are learning how to communicate your needs with your H...

Not cover up poor communication with destructive behavior like the OM.

And your H is your FIRST and ONLY choice.

That you now know the M is to be RESPECTED and PROTECTED with BOUNDARIES that others are not allowed to disrespect.

Show him the ENVIRONMENT that allowed the tragedy of the OM into your M no longer exists and what your H means to you and you WILL see a change in him.

You are doing great and I'm proud of you.

God bless.

Jim

Hitch,
Hope your day is going well and you are feeling hopeful......
Hitch I think you just need to say everything you need to say, let it pour out of your heart, be honest about your regret about having your affair, tell your husband he has nothing to worry about when it comes to the OM, tell him you were wrong and that he/the affair means nothing to you, tell him you feel like the OM used you and played you when you were weak emotionally and that he is not the kind of man you could ever respect and have any kind of future with......
Tell him you love him and that all the two of you have been through has been an eye opener for you......
He is afraid of losing you, your job is to reassure him, don't talk about him and his OW in this conversation with him, this is about you and your feelings and your honest thoughts now......
Let him think about what you said for a few days, then leave the rest up to him.....
If he wants to work things out with you he will stop with the OW, they really don't mean anything to him, he is still with you because this is where he wants to be, he is just scared ......
do all the little things you are doing, little looks, little touches.......understand his feelings, listen..........one person occassional in any relationship needs to be the stonger one when the other is not...............you be this person.........
keep smiling Hitch.........you are almost there.......

Jim and Jessie. Those were great posts.

Just wanna say I relly agree with the enviroment statement and what jessie said about how one person occasionally has to be the stronger one.
Keep opening up with H and sharing, thats what it all about IMO

Hitch, I know some people are advising you to do a 6 month Plan A. I don't know if that is what is best. I do agree that there needs to be consistency, but I worry about your emotional state enduring a Plan A for that long.

A 6 month long Plan A for a woman goes against MB principles on dealing with an affair. I know of a case where a woman was advised to not go into Plan B and Plan A indefinitely but there were certain circumstances particular to that situation that made that necessary, particularly that her husband was out of the country working. She was advised to do that by Steve Harley (I believe, details may be fuzzy).

I cannot support a 6 month Plan A in your situation. I worry about what it will do to you emotionally and mentally. I would advise you to speak to the Harley's one more time. They know your husband and your situation. They have the best experience here. Lay out your plan and the idea for a 6 month Plan A and ask for their guidance.

This is not to say that you shouldn't work to be a good wife. You must always continue working on yourself. However, the elements of Plan A that involve no expectations and going above and beyond to meet needs, always stay pleasant and upbeat despite neglect or independent behavior...those things will wear you down pretty fast.

Please call the Harleys and get their advice.

ITA..stay in contact with S. Harley so he can monitor Hs behavior and the effects on you. Protecting yourself is crucial. You don't want to bean him one and then go to plan B. Neither do you want to break down internally from being the women you are becoming as you hold your head up and establish what you want from your marriage.

So glad you and H are improving Hitch.

Hi Hitch,

I am happy to see you feel you are making progress.

I am not here to advise you either way in your situation, you are fully capable of deciding that for yourself based on the advice here and your feelings and intellegence. All I can do is wish you well and say some prayers for you especially, and him.

Miracles never cease, my son has agreed to go to confession with me tommorrow, and for me that is a big step. I know people here or anywhere do not like to hear about faith an religion, but a big step and I thing he will feel better about himself.

Pleaase take care for you and your family.

Tom