Of course a cheater will still find a way, but if he surrounds himself with temptation and opportunity he is much more likely to cheat, isn't he? When a person is trying to withdraw from an addiction, they take extraordinary precautions to avoid the conditions that could make it easy to cheat.

Since when it this even debatable? Do you think Dr Harley is telling people they don't have to take EP's because they will "cheat anyway?" C'mon...

In order to have an affair, a secret second life must be created. That is very hard to do when you are in bed with your spouse every night and together for many hours a day, accounting for your time. It is very easy to do when you travel away from your spouse all week.

Just because some affairs take place while there is no travel, does not mean that sleeping together during the week is not a deterrant, it only means that MORE transparency is needed, NOT LESS.

Ok, I guess here we are talking about a repentant WS who wants to R the M not any WS.
Sure, in that case all the precautions need to be taken otherwise there will be no R.
blessing

Hi BV

I read your thread and I have to tell you that I identify with you on so many levels its not funny.
An even weirder thing is that I read CGIR's thread and have responded to him by commenting how much he sounded like my WH.
I will even suggest that you read my thread and see the parallels.

I believe that I am mentally where you are right now. I am thinking that MB principles are great and perhaps if we had come here years ago we might have been able to salvage the M, but I am starting to think that way too much damage has been done.

So I am asking myself and you, why are we still here? thats what I am trying to figure out. God knows that everything we have discovered, we are entitled to just say enough is enough?

This is yours and my dilemma as I see it? do you agree?

An update:

Was talking to CGIR tonight about getting a divorce. The subject of his affair of four years ago came up.

Last weekend, he admitted, for the first time, that the affair went beyond kissing. (He initially described single kisses; last weekend he admitted to kissing her and touching her breasts for extended periods of time in her hotel room). He also admitted for the first time taking her out on a date for drinks and making out with her in his car. I heard him say that if I asked him on a polygraph if he had touched another woman sexually, that he would fail, since he had only told me about the kissing. He said that what he actually said is that he had touched her sexually.

Tonight, he directly said that he touched her genitals and brought her to orgasm. While I always thought he slept with her, it was still shocking and painful to hear. I say he deceived me last week; he says that when he said that he "touched her sexually" he assumed I knew what he was talking about.

I'm assuming that in a few more days, I'll finally hear that he slept with her.

We're beginning to talk about how to divide our assests in a non-contentious divorce.

That's very sad, BV, but understandable. I am disappointed and frankly AMAZED that even under this level of risk he continues to manage the release of truth. Lying is more important to him than a chance of rescuing your marriage. Amazing.

Dear BobPure:

Thanks for your thoughts.

Not that this is a particularly productive line of thinking, but I've been trying to figure out what CGIR doesn't want to give up. (As of last night, he said he still wanted to stay married to me, but I just fired off some non-MB "Plan FU" e-mails, so he may have changed his mind).

I guess it has to be his position of perceived control over me OR his desire to be able to hurt me. Here's why I think this:

1) If what he wanted was to continue to lie to me and have a secret life, why tell me "truth?" He could have stuck with his original stories, or modified them to make a little more sense (one was particularly unbelievable - we refer to it as the "McDonald's story"). I was naive, in love with CGIR, had (have) virtually no self-esteem and deep down, hoped that I was wrong and that the lies WERE the truth. Additionally, the things he told me were things that I was pretty unlikely to find out independently of him - they happened years ago and I had no quantifiable evidence.

He had some great cards; he could have played this hand as a winner if he wanted to. So, I don't think it's the lying/secrecy.

2) If he wanted other women and porn - I told him many times that he could absolutely have this lifestyle - just tell me that he these were the things he felt he had missed out on and wanted to pursue and I would walk away. Why would I want to trap him or guilt him into being with me when he wanted something else? My self-esteem in our relationship is low enough as it is; why would I actively do that to myself?

He did nothing wrong with any of the women he dated while we were married HAD HE BEEN SINGLE. If you're single, you can absolutely have casual, flirty, fun-based, sexual relationships with multiple women. I believe that's called adult dating. You can do it on the internet, or you can do it in person. While opinions on porn vary, lots of porn is legal. To my knowledge, CGIR NEVER had any interest in categories of porn that are not. Bookstores/"toy" stores are legitimate businesses. I believe a single person's private use of legal porn is his/her business and nothing to be ashamed about.

So, he had a free pass to pursue these behaviors freely and legitimately. And if he had just been honest with me about wanting to, we still could have remained friends for a little while and helped each other until we got settled. (I did tell him, though, that our friendship would have to end relatively soon afterward, as I couldn't listen to the person I wanted to be with talk about the women he wanted to date, and couldn't live through the conversation where he told me that he couldn't talk to me anymore out of respect for his new girlfriend).

So, I don't think it's the behaviors/lifestyle.

3) If he was only staying with me for appearances, he blew that out of the water by telling his mother; he is also encouraging me to tell my mother and the people I work with so I can have support. He did tell his mother that our problems are his fault because he had an affair (yes, he did give her a white-washed version and I'm sure, because she is his mother, she is silently thinking that he only had an affair because I drove him to it). Everyone in his family will find out next weekend when he shows up alone at a large family wedding.

My mother is single because my father left us for an OW that he married; they live a very secure and comfortable lifestyle while my mother struggles to this day working two jobs and unable to retire. My sister's first marriage ended due to an affair and she became an OW who is now married to her affair partner. He will obviously face some discomfort when we tell my mother.

So, I don't think it's just to "keep up appearances" or guilt. The appearances are beginning to shatter, and he's already taken the blame.

4) Now I'm down to control and/or the desire to continue to hurt me. Control is shaping up to be a good possibility - I just received a financial document from him that outlined (quoting) "[h]ow [he] is 'willing' to divide everything." (emphasis on "willing" added by me). He also said last night (although, again, after my e-mails, he may have changed his mind) that he would want to date me after we got divorced. Looking for another chance to set up a relationship where he could control me, but this time, seeing where he screwed up before, set it up better, to guarantee success?

Desire to hurt me is also a contender - I asked him many times if I had ever done anything to hurt him in the past; anything that made him feel as bad as I feel now. If I did, I would be so overwhelming sorry that I don't know how I would handle it. Years ago (2004), he said I belittled him throughout our marriage, and I agree, although that was not my intention at the time (this was WAY before we knew anything about Marriage Builders and were clueless). Now, he says I didn't. So, maybe it's revenge? I can understand the desire to lash out - I lashed out last night on the phone and lashed out a few hours ago by e-mail.

However, he had enough truth to break me (and has), so if he wanted that moment of revenge, again, he had a GREAT hand. If he wanted revenge, if he wanted to see me suffer like he did, why not just go for it? He suffered with my DJs and AOs for years; I suffered with his gas-lighting and betrayal for years. So again, if he wanted revenge, why not just finish me off?

So, I don't think it's revenge.

5) Which leaves me with the possibility (which I think is the winner) that for some reason he won't reveal to me, he wants to hurt me, over time, for as long as he possibly can. By trickling out the truth, little by little, he can continue to make me doubt myself (SHOULD I have "read between the lines" about the "rubbing off" incident? Maybe I'm not a good listener/maybe I'm stupid and naive...") and hear my pain.

But what I don't understand, is WHY?

Oh well, thank you to anyone who has had the patience to read through this mess.

I need to get off marriage builders and start my day.

I am a global expert in a highly-specialized field with skills that can change people's lives. I can do a tiny handful of things that, literally, no one else in the global world can do.

During a national recession, I have a job with a little bit of security and health benefits.

I am a university professor.

I am a amateur photographer who has been in juried competitions and won a national contest with a twelve-year old camera and no instruction or lessons.

I know how to preview my MB posts for spelling and grammar. ;-)

I have great pets.

It is a beautiful, sunny fall day where I live.

Again, thanks for listening.

BrokenVase

It's not about his wanting to hurt you as much as it is about avoiding his own hurt that he feels every time you experience a new pain. That pain is excruciating and unending, so by avoiding truth for as long as he can, he seeks to avoid THAT pain.

brokenvase - have you ever looked up "sex addiction" to see if it sounds like your husband?

Addicts lie and lie and lie and lie. They don't even think about it. They lie to protect their drug (in the case of a sex addict, their drug is sex and sexual attention in virtually any way, shape or form).

Their behaviour escalates over time. They need to go to greater and greater extremes to get the same rush from their drug.

And they are 100% totally selfish and self-centered. That's because the drug controls them and therefore nothing matters but the drug.

It's no different from dealing with an alcoholic or a crackhead.

Your last post is very interesting, especially the conclusion that he's doing this to hurt you. Actually, he's not TRYING to hurt you - he just doesn't CARE if he hurts you. So he does.

Because he's an addict.

He lies and feeds you trickle truth in an effort to keep you under control so you won't leave. That way, you can continue to be part of his habit and feed him sexual attention when he's around (even if it's negative attention, such as anger over his behaviour.)

Please Google "sex addiction" and maybe look for the recoverynation website. I could be wrong, but from what the two of you are posting he sure does sound like an addict.

P.S. The Harleys will tell you that MB plans do not work where this is substance or behavioural addiction already in place. He would have to become sexually sober before MB would have an effect.

I cannot continue to post on MB in good faith without also making sure that everyone who has taken the time to comment on my thread knows that I also had two affairs, one while dating CGIR and one while married to CGIR. I have adjusted my signature accordingly.

[Confidential to CGIR: I know you don't have the same "need to know" as I do, so you may want to get out of here now, if you're reading. There's not really any new information here; just details. You already know the basic facts about the person in college and the person at my work. You will NOT read that I had intercourse with either person.]

The facts of each and a review of my wayward thinking at the time:

The first affair was an emotional affair while I was in college, during my freshman year - 1983. An older, married student showed interest in me and I responded. (Warning - wayward thinking alert) I have always had low self-esteem and was looking for validation of my self-worth from others - If THIS person likes me, I must be normal. There must not be anything wrong with me. We (OM) and I hung out, talked and he kissed me. I told CGIR about the kiss while the affair was happening.

To show CGIR that this person and I were "just friends" (and for this person to show his wife that we were "just friends") (brace yourselves, this is disgusting), CGIR and I and this person and his wife went on a double-date to a movie.

I never wanted to be with the other person - I just wanted to feel like I was a normal person, that other people were not disgusted by. (If anyone is familiar with Beck's work with schemas, I am the perfect embodiment of the "defective schema"). I never wanted to be without CGIR. I ended the relationship after my freshman year by simply not responding to this person when he would stop by - I would have my roommates say I was not home. He (OM) was obviously hurt by this and stopped contacting me.

Here is something CGIR does not know. This person contacted me three times after we were married. First, he stopped by my mother's house and asked where I was living. She did not tell him, but did tell me he stopped by. At the time, I felt sick - I just wanted the past to stay in the past. I did not tell CGIR. Then the other person found my phone number and called me and asked me to meet him. (This was years before caller ID and phone features - when the phone rang, you did not know who was on the line until you picked it up and said hello.) I don't remember what I said; I believe I probably said yes to get him off the phone but had NO intention of showing up, and didn't. I was 22 and thought the best way to end something was to ignore it and hope it went away. Again, I felt sick. The last time, the other person found the address of our first apartment (it wasn't hard - it was in the phone book, where he found our number; we don't have a particularly common last name) and stopped by. When he knocked, I looked out our peep-hole, as I wasn't expecting anyone. I saw it was him, and never answered the door. The other person could obviously take a hint, and I never heard from him again. I could not tell you if today if he is even dead or alive, and until now, to tell this story, he has never entered my thoughts, except that there is a large part of me that believes the pain I am suffering now with CGIR is my account come due, the price and interest I now have to pay.

End of affair #1.

Affair #2 happened after CGIR were married for about six years - around 1993. The OM (single) was a co-worker - the "hot" good-looking guy that all the other (single) girls wanted and couldn't get. At an evening work event, we stayed afterward, talking, and the OM kissed me. Again, for me, here was validation that I was normal; this other person actually thought I was normal enough to touch. (If my thought process seems over-the-top and confusing, just read about defective schemas - they're the story of my life. Pun intended). I told CGIR about the kiss the next day; he seemed not to care. I made it sound like a drunken (we had been drinking at the event) one-time thing. I guess I wanted to "pay him back" for his affair #1, which, at that time, I believed was just a kiss. Over the next week or two, I kept putting myself where the OM might see me (I worked late, and he lived next-door to where we worked - if he bothered to look, he would see my car, the light and know it was me). One night, OM came over and we kissed; he indicated he wanted to have sex with me by taking down his pants. I DID NOT want to have sex of any kind with the OM - I did not like him as a person; we had nothing in common and were not suited for each other in any way; I had NO sexual desire for him at all. All I wanted was the tangible validation that I was normal (i.e., not disgusting to others) - if a "hot" guy who others wanted wanted me, then, of course, I must be normal.

(Warning: beyond stupid thinking coming up). I guess at that time, I felt "obligated" to finish what I started, and had oral sex with the OM. I was also afraid that OM might physically force me to have sex (intercourse) - we were alone together in an isolated building with no chance of anyone coming by. I now realize that the likelihood of this was slim to none - he was just a regular person, not like that, and would have stopped if I insisted. I was just too stupid to see any other way out of the situation at the time other than "finishing" it. The OM did not touch me, and the oral sex lasted maybe one minute. I immediately and to this day felt like a whore. To top it off, OM said the only reason he pursued sex with me was because he felt sorry for me. (There went my whole validation gain). I continued to see the OM at work every day for the next year, and we never talked about the incident or interacted in any other way beyond what was required for work again. After a few months, OM was transferred to a new location; after about a year, he quit. Again, other than to tell this story, I never thought about him again.

(As an aside, there are a handful of unique circumstances where people who have had an affair can continue to work together and have NO feelings for one another - in my case, continuing to see OM each only cemented my resolve to never, ever, ever do anything so stupid and humiliating again). No better reminder to not act like a whore than to face the person you humiliated yourself for every day for months, in your workplace).

Again, this affair happened around 1993; information about AIDS (HIV did not exist as a diagnosis yet) was common knowledge. OM and I had unprotected sex. OM was rumored to have been promiscuous. I was tested for AIDS (negative) and now had to figure out some way to avoid having sex with CGIR for six months until I could get my re-test. (That was the protocol back then). I did so by picking fights with CGIR, staying away from home by working and just generally being as repellent as possible. CGIR brought up that we were not having sex, and I basically implied that it was because I disliked him and was unattracted to him. My super-secret plan worked (far more clever and devious than just telling the truth, of course); I was re-tested (negative) and somehow we resumed having sex. (How we ever transitioned from my obnoxious behavior back to having sex, I don't know). We were both re-tested a few years later as part of a physical for insurance purposes and were negative; I required CGIR to have an AIDS test when he was contacting people over the internet related to his pornography use in 2004. He was negative. So, I dodged a bullet on that one and did not kill either myself or CGIR with a deadly STD.

While I told CGIR about the first kiss, I never told him about lurking around waiting to see if OM showed up and having had oral sex with OM. I kept this secret for about 14-15 years. It was highly unlikely that CGIR would ever find out about it. In 2007, when we were trying to recover, I began thinking about it every day. I felt that we would never have a chance at having an intimate relationship if I kept this secret. So, one night I blurted it out to CGIR, offering him the chance to leave me. If he had feelings about my confession, he did not reveal them to me, and did not want to know any details other than: I had oral sex with OM; I had no relationship with/feelings for him; and I felt awful about it and at least learned a lesson from it. To date, CGIR has never brought it up again and has not wanted any details.

Oh, and one last thing. Once I tried to register on e-harmony (years ago when it used to be free) when I was hurt by and angry with CGIR. I told him at the time I was doing this. I wanted to lash out, and, yet again, validate myself through others. But, here's the ironic part: after I spent hours and hours filling out all their surveys, e-harmony told me that a tiny percentage of people are unmatchable, and that I was one of them. Welcome to Leprosy Island. That pretty much finished my seeking-out validation through others; not only did OM#2 think I was a loser - e-harmony scientifically evaluated me and proved that no one would want to be with me.

So, to my personal statement in my previous post, please add:

I am liar.

I am an adulterer.

I am a hypocrite.

I write in a long-winded way: I over-use the semi-colon and often use "that" when I should use "who."

And, CGIR, if you hung in there and read this, I'm really, really sorry.

Thanks for listening.

Update, for those who have had the patience to follow our threads:

We are not getting divorced and have decided to try again. CGIR is still working on his timeline, going back to childhood. I will add my information. We will go over the information again and again until we both have the same "mental picture" and understanding of our past. Then, I will type it all up; we will continue this process until we both firmly agree that this is "the story of us."

I have found that when we can agree on the timing and details of an event, the feelings (past and present)that it provoked and the event's meaning, I can then "let it go" and assign it to the past, where it belongs.

We recognize that this will take a while.

When this is done, CGIR will take a polygraph, as this is the closest thing to "proof" that I will be able to get. (If he refuses to take the test, or fails, we will end).

I don't expect CGIR to never relapse with pornography; but I do expect him to stop deceiving me. There can, of course, be no "relapses" with other women. Any future deception, we will end.

CGIR has been and is looking for job at home, but this will be a long process.

CGIR will begin IC to try to understand why he does what he does. Is he an addict? Maybe. We hope a therapist can help us find out.

Hopping back on the rollercoaster again, hoping that it is the final ride.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for the response.

I am closely following your thread, I am hoping that you find that proverbial light at the end of the tunnel.

It is saddening to see a marriage of so many years go through this type of turmoil.

I believe that the longer you have been in a marriage, the harder it is to walk away, it somehow nullifies the time you have invested in the relationship, and who wants to negate 30 years of their life? Thats just too large a chunk to toss away.

I wish you all the best and will keep an eye on your situation because I guess, if you can make it work, there MIGHT be hope for me.

BV,

Somehow, in your story, I sense that you and CGIR have been fighting for a feeling of balance in your marriage.

Only

it isn't there.

You have both been hurt by adultery, whatever the justifications.


Now, so many years later, the issues that were never faced during the earlier times in your marriage are facing you

still

only in a huge way.

I think what has happened to the two of you is that you both buried the previous affairs, and tried to "move on". The underlying issues that resulted in the affairs were never addressed.

So these issues only grew larger and more difficult.

Leading to more affairs. More independent behavior, more separation between the two of you, and more alienation of loving feelings resulted from all of this.

Now, the two of you are faced with yet more affair behavior on his part, and the ongoing escalation of his porn use.

The only way to really address things is to start over - you have to really address the underlying issues that plague the marriage. The unmet emotional needs, the basics as Dr. Harley says. O&H - and your husband needs to hit the mark on this one, because if he doesn't, you have no chance.

from his thread, he seems to understand that

my question is whether or not his "knowing" it academically, and his ability to put it into action can be achieved



SB

Exactly. And CGIR did a few good things together - financially, we are on the same page and have built a fairly secure future. We have no debt and have never had debt. Despite CGIR's job loss and 2 year (and counting) stretch of limited, non-permanent employment, we continue to live a comfortable lifestyle and save money. We are on track to pay off our mortgage before we are 50. We are able to help my mother.

We have fun together. The day before the beginning of the "great reveal," I had an excellent time out with CGIR. He said he had fun with me, too.

With SF, we finally seem to "have it together," consistently.

Many, many wives would kill for what CGIR does for me in terms of domestic support, especially for the past 2 years. He also helps me with my work, when he can, without complaint.

And CGIR has changed several important behaviors, especially in regards to SF and conversation, that have made our relationship much better for me. More importantly, he's maintained these changes over time.

If we could only figure out what an emotionally intimate relationship is, and how to have one, we'd be great. ;-)

I could be happy with being two broken people who are safe and secure with each other.

I follow your thread as well; best of luck to us both.

Schoolbus:

Thank you so much for spending your time following our threads; I've been reading these forums for several years and truly value your input.

In the past, I've always tried to help us, and CGIR. I got us into marriage counseling in 2004; I found MB in 2007; I went to IC to try to recover from depression. I required that CGIR begin posting here. Often times, my efforts were misguided and failed to produce a result, but, as CGIR concluded by looking at his timeline, I was always trying to do SOMETHING.

Now, though, should I just step back and let CGIR do this on his own? I'm happy to help, but I should be the helper, the supporter, but NOT the leader, right? For example, the book from the Arbinger Institute. It's not hard to track down and get; it took me under 30 seconds to locate it. You've strongly recommended it to CGIR twice, and he's not yet gotten it ("no time").

In the past, I would have secured the book for him, whether he asked me to or not. I would have read it myself, highlighted it for him, and brought up topics from it for discussion. I would have compared and contrasted information from the book with things we've tried before. And all this would be before I really got serious.

I SHOULD NOT do this now, right? I should let CGIR help or not help himself? If he asks me for help, for example, to get the book for him, should I do it or not?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm trying to figure out if the way I typically "help" actually helps, or only hinders.

Again, thank you, thank you, thank you. That you are on our threads gives me a little glimmer of hope.

From reading this last post it appears then, that you have a heck of a lot more going for you and CGIR than I do in my relationship, So, go for it, focus on the fact that it is not all bad.

I am trying so hard to find the positives in my relationship, and I am having a hard time, perhaps time will help me to get a clearer picture.

I have my DD and she is a joy for me. My WH has been so busy investing himself in relationships outside of the M, that I think that there was not much left to put into the M. The fault I guess is mine for not demanding more; I believe I started feeling hurt and as a result, started to withdraw into my shell, being the selfish, self absorbent individual that he is he took my withdrawal as an opportunity to do even more.

As I said in one of my previous threads, I have been lonely for such a long time I can't remember when I wasn't, as for SF, I have none, no intimacy, nothing.

So I really have to decide where to go from here, because at the end of the day, the real question for me is, whats in this marriage for me.

So I am happy to hear that you are in a much better place than I am. Best of luck to you.

Dear Teaser:

Thanks for your encouragement. All day Friday, I "sat" with the decision that CGIR and I were getting divorced; on his end, so did CGIR, not because he wanted to, but because he thought he had overwhelmed me and everything was now too broken to fix.

Well, that decision just seemed completely, completely wrong. Today CGIR and I sat with the decision that we were staying together and working through this no matter what. For both of us, this decision seems correct and "right." We've had some good, positive conversations on the phone. We're making sensible decisions on how to proceed; for example, CGIR is coming home early and we're taking some time off from our timeline/truth work to be together and reconnect after an extremely emotionally draining weekend.

Before this weekend, I told CGIR many times that I could NEVER forgive him for what he did, and if we stayed together, he had to realize and accept that. I was 100% certain that I would never be able to change my mind, even if I wanted to. Absolutely, 100% CERTAIN.

This weekend, he told me some very hurtful things, but the more he told me, the more sense everything made; all the pieces of the puzzle were starting to come together. To borrow from Joseph's Letter, we were now looking at, talking about and working on the same puzzle. Our frame of reference was finally the same.

And this weekend, a feeling just came over me that I COULD forgive CGIR, really fully forgive him. Not yet, but if we continue on this path, it will happen. And after years of FIGHTING the past, despairing over the past and rejecting the past, I can now believe that in the relatively near future, I'll be able to separate the past from my present and begin to think about the future.

The reason I am telling you this, though, is because I was where you are now - all alone, in a shell, deeply despairing - paralyzed because I was too fearful to stay and too fearful to go. I illustrated it for CGIR once, saying I felt like I was standing exposed in a dark forest in lightning storm. Unable to decide if I wanted to be attacked by predators or struck by lightning, I was frozen in place. I thought about suicide daily for a LONG period of time; the one thing that kept me from doing it was fear of failure and traumatic brain injury. CGIR and I went on a vacation a few years ago and my most comforting thought was that the hotel had a great balcony I could jump off if any day became more than I could handle.

Why am I telling you all this? Because I never thought I could make it through, and NEVER thought we could make it together.

If we can sort through our mess which spans three decades, have hope that you can, too.

Here for you -

BrokenVase

"The reason I am telling you this, though, is because I was where you are now - all alone, in a shell, deeply despairing - paralyzed because I was too fearful to stay and too fearful to go. I illustrated it for CGIR once, saying I felt like I was standing exposed in a dark forest in lightning storm. Unable to decide if I wanted to be attacked by predators or struck by lightning, I was frozen in place." (Don't know how to do the quote thingy)

BV, you hit the nail right on the head with the above feeling. It seems there are many of us that feel the same exact way...at least I do. Thank you

I thank you so much for saying this to me.

I think that there are so many others out there who will be happy to hear that, no matter how bad things may seem, there is always hope.

I am right now just standing still, I am not even sure what it is I am waiting for.

I am waiting to see though, what WH's next move will be, I feel at this point that I cannot take on any more responsibility for this M.

Somewhere along the way he has to show some initiative. I will take my cue from there.

BV,

Do not get the book for him.

You are not his mother.

Do not take that role with him. He wants a wife. His mom would buy the book, highlight it for him and start the discussion. IF he was in second grade.



SB