Honestly, I don't think your Plan A is working, MichaelJan. It seems that she is annoyed by your calls (4-5 a week you say) and I think you are actually doing more damage than good - it doesn't sound like she has responded well to it at all. Have you thought about an end date for Plan A? Plan B might bring her to her senses. At this point, you have nothing to lose. She's moved out a year ago and has no problem rubbing your nose in her adultery. Show her you respect yourself enough to not accept her behavior any more. Stand up for yourself. I think she definitely thinks she can walk all over you. And I can see why she thinks that.

Dr. Harley says to stay in Plan A as long as possible. He knows me as well as anyone associated with MB, as I've called his show five times and sent him an email that was read on air. So I will stay in Plan A.

But you're right: Honey doesn't respect me; and I need to stand up for myself. I've been too soft with her. FWIW, I call her twice a week; and plan to tell her tomorrow or Wednesday night about the fact that I need more time with our daughters or she will get less money. And yes, if she files and continues to disrespect me, I'm going to Plan B.

Then I wish you luck. My opinion is that it will not work because you are too focused on your "love" for her that it's blinding you from seeing the situation objectively. Imagine if you were addicted to heroin and it made you happier, higher than you'd ever felt. Then imagine if your partner kept politely asking you to stop. You wouldn't pay much attention in the face of the much stronger urge to FEEL GOOD. It would take your partner putting her foot down and calling an intervention, and telling you PLAINLY and CLEARLY that your behavior was unacceptable, and if you didn't change, she was going to leave you, for you to have a CHANCE of changing.

This is your situation with her. She is an addict. And think of it this way: you are failing her and doing her a disservice every minute you don't stand up, man up, and start calling the shots and telling her how things are going to go down. YOU CAN DO THAT. But you are choosing not to. You are NOT a victim, and you OWN the way you act to your WW.

Also, I never buy the line that "if she does X, THEN I will man up and tell her what for". What, like a year of her living separately, continuing to f%^k her OM, flaunt him in front of your children, and having you finance her A isn't enough disrespect to last 10 men a lifetime? Think about what your children are learning through your inaction. Would you want them to go through something like what you've gone through?



Good luck.

I acknowledge that I have not stood up to her enough. FWIW, I plan to tell her tomorrow that I need more time with our girls or she will get less money from me. That's taking a stand.

But my other options are limited. Divorce her? Nope. Go to Plan B. Nope, says Dr. Harley, who says I should stay the course. Beat up the OM? Nope.

By the way, Dr. Harley said to wait for a break in her A; for the OM to screw up. That sounds like good advice to me. It worked for John in his relationship with Sue in Surviving an Affair.

If you can think of other ways to man up without committing LB's, I'd like to hear them.

P.S. The old link to my radio appearance is broken. Here's hoping this one works: http://richwith.com/mb/radio/oldershows/09-14-10/ Click on segments A and B.
---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

An update: I haven't called or contacted Honey since late Saturday night. My goal is to win back her respect of me (and perhaps my self respect as well). I know that Scotland and others say that a wayward's responses matter little in a Plan A or Plan B, but I also think that Honey's disrespect of me decreased the odds that she would want to reconcile.

That said, I plan to call Honey tonight. Our childcare sitch needs to change. She can't have the kids two thirds of the time and pay only half the costs. However, I will talk with her without committing any LB's.

---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

A hope and a bad reminder: Honey asked me today to go trick or treating with our girls in my neighborhood for Halloween; she agreed yesterday to pay $400 more a month for our joint costs because she spends more time with them; she chatted me up for half an hour today, and would have kept going if a repairman wasn't at my house. All those things suggested that the fog is lifting. Then she said, after I told her that I had read a book of hers, that she read it "when we were married." Great.

I would like to think my Plan A is working, but likely she wants to play nice before filing for D later this month.

---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

Hi MJ,

Well, I can certainly see your dilemnma regarding your Plan A. By the way, I do not believe that you are going to 'annoy' anyone here by choosing to stay in the Plan A for abit longer. The two things I would be concerned about with her living apart are: 1) the ability to monitor contact, and to guage whether or not the affair is becoming more entrenched or weakening, and 2) having an open-ended Plan A in terms of the time. I feel the latter opens you up to guaging your actions based on her behavior.

Other than that MJ, just keep trudging and best wishes.

Tom

I think you�re supporting the affair and living in fantasy land that she�s going to suddenly wake up and return.

You�ve allowed her to leave with your kids.

What to do? Get a lawyer and file for a motion to have the children immediately returned to the marital home. File for abandonment and adultery and request child support.

THAT is her wakeup.

When she calls livid, tell her you�re giving her what she wants, not what you want. She wants to end the marriage. Ok. But you, as a father, aren�t going to be playing second fiddle in your kids lives and you will not permit them to be exposed to her adultery.

I think this Plan A is dead. Doing what you�re doing will simply end up with a precedent where you don�t have your kids 50/50 and you support her with most of your paycheck while she shacks up with OM.

I think it is time for Plan B with a massive hammer. You can always let her know that you don�t want to go down this path in your Plan B letter, but I see no other option for you.

Tom and help,

Thanks for the advice. I will address it later tonight. In the meantime, I got news: the OM no longer works with Honey.

He got a new job. It can't be in the same city as her; according to the company's website, it's 20 miles away.

This development can't be good for their A. It's gotta be bad. Honey is no longer the hot chick in the office; she's the old flame whom he no longer sees five days a week. He's likely to move on to the new chicas. I could be wrong; he may want to keep seeing her. But this must be a disruption that Honey didn't anticipate, and is ticked off about. Finally, some reality intruded on Affair Island.

---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

You're worrying about things that are out of your control. Stop. It will drive you crazy.

"This development can't be good for their A. It's gotta be bad."

Hi MJ,

Well, maybe, and maybe not. I agree with 'help' in that this is wishful thinking, and I can understand why you are engaging in that. Point is that he may have left for a better job with her approval, they have figured out how to continue the affair unimpeded, and 20 miles is not a long distance away.

This development may turn out to be good, or it may not. The only one who can answer that is your W. It seems that lately too many NFL coaches end up flummoxed by trying to outguess the opposing defense rather than simply staying with the strengths of their teams and what is working.

The best to you MJ, but I just wish you would play to your strengths instead of trying to outguess the opposition.

Tom

Tom,

Me guilty of wishful thinking? No way.

Yeah, I cop to the charge. I have a tendency to be clueless and naive. Also, Honey likely still is seeing him. For the first time in two years, she has talked in the past few weeks about finding a new job in the future.

I do think that he won't commit to marrying her; that he will find a new woman soon; and their A will end sooner rather than later. He has long been her "work husband."

That said, I will stop writing about my guesses of their sitch. And I will keep with my Plan A. Which at the advice of Dr. H, schoolbus, you, and others, is to be a strong, loving, patient husband.

I am doing and being all those things. And I'm not calling her regularly, giving her flowers, or speeches. I'm just frustrated that I can't do more to get my family back and make it better than ever. Hence the guessing games.


-----------------------------------------------

Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

Did you expose at work?

Road,

Thanks for writing. I talked with their boss twice, implying that they were having an A, and exposed to a close former colleague of theirs.


-----------------------------------------------

Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

Do you have 50/50 custody? Have you filed legal papers to get the kids returned to the home?

Here�s your reality:

She�s out of the house. She�s already emotionally checked out. She�s playing in the big leagues and you�re still stuck in the minors hoping for a shot at The Show. The reality is that there is NOTHING that gives her an incentive to return to you.

You are financing her affair, have given up your kids, and are sitting idly by with hope in your hand. How is that going for you?

Time to wake up from the fantasy and follow a real plan. Plan A when she�s out of the house and hope aren�t a plan.

I don�t know how much more clearly I need to say this. SHE�S MOVED OUT, WITH YOUR KIDS. THE AFFAIR CONTIUES AND YOU�RE SETTING A LEGAL PRECEDENT WHERE SHE IS THE PRIMARY CARETAKER OF THE KIDS.

Path you�re on? You will be divorced, paying child support out of your nose, separated from kids you rarely see. That�s your glidepath.

Time to take action, my friend. Plan B with an appropriate letter followed by legal action to get your kids back in your house.

Help,

You're right: My reality sucks. She's out of the house. I don't have 50/50 custody. (I'm not financing the affair; I pay for my share of child care and joint debts). And believe me, if she files, I will fight like hell to get the best custody arrangement for my kids and myself. Your advice will come in handy, so I appreciate your help.

That said, Dr. H himself says to stay in Plan A and not file for custody or go to Plan B. He's not just any joe blow; he's Dr. H. He's not infallible, but he created this site for heaven's sake. Please go ahead and listen to my appearance last month on his radio show. Your beef seems to be more with Dr. H's advice than my approach, imho.

FWIW, Honey is not as foggy as other WW's. She invited me to go trick or treating with our kids in MY neighborhood. And the OM no longer works with her. Does this mean she won't file in mid-October? Who knows, but I like my chances better now, per Dr. H's advice, than if I had filed for custody or gone to Plan B.

---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

Hi MJ,

Just hope you are doing well on this Friday night.

Hey MJ, I truely have hope for you and your W, and I feel that it is a privilege to even have you listen to anything I say on here. However, I have to say that I partly agree with 'Help's' advice to you at this point. That is because, from what I know of your situation, you two are now approaching being separated and estranged for a year. The latter term would really scare me if I were in your situation.

Dr. Harley is a skilled M counselor, but he is not a legal advocate. So, you have to balance his advice against protecting yourself AND your kids legallly.

MJ, if I were in your shoes at this moment, I would formulate a two-prong defense. Arrange for another session with Harley, and try to get your W to participate. At the same time I would obtain the best legal counsel I could afford, thrash it out with him/her in terms of the estrangement and what it may mean to you in court, despite what your W promises. I know this may seem unrealistic in terms of funds at the present time, but if you have to eat hot dogs for the next ten weeks, or beg, borrow or steal, that is what I would do.

Other than that I don't know what to say except to extend my prayers and best wishes to you again, that you will succeed.

Tom

MJ,

My advice centers on the damage you're doing to your own case. When I look at your situation, I think of what is likely happening:



She's setting you up. She has probably consulted a lawyer, who has advised you to play nice with you long enough to establish herself as the primary custodian of the kids. Then, when you least expect it, BAM! She will slam you with divorce papers and will claim that she has been the primary caretaker for the past x amount of time and requires support from you.



I wouldn't be telling you this if I didn't know from experience how devious women can be when playing the legal game. They reallly do a fantastic job of playing nice and offering a carrot of hope to men while they set themselves up legally.



Again, I'm talking from experience.



SH is great at what he does, which is saving marriages. But, at the same time, he has to balance the legal stuff with the advice needed to save a marriage. They don't always go hand in hand.



You are in peril legally. You should, at a minimum, consult a lawyer. They can tell you if I'm wrong, since the laws in your state may be different.



But the hope you harbor is the #1 reason why men lose in custody battles. They don't play hardball. They are often duped into letting the woman keep everything.



I'm just trying to give you a heads up so you don't have it happen to you.



But don't be shocked if she goes from nice to nasty quickly.

@MJ -
From my experience in California (NOT LEGAL ADVICE. CONSULT AN ATTORNEY), usually when custody issues arise during a divorce after a separation the courts will let stand any custody arrangements that were in place prior to filing for divorce. The reason for this is that any change in custody could mean a disruption to the kids. You would have to prove to the court that it would be in the children best interests to change any standing custody. Divorce is not necessarily grounds for changing custody.

Is there a legal separation in place? If not, then there is no legal custody arrangements that recognized by the courts. In other words it is up to you and your W to mediate these matters.

You really need to see an attorney about your rights when it comes to settling custody.

Seeing an attorney does not mean that you are contemplating a divorce. You are just trying to educate yourself on your rights. If there was a financial matter that might be going to court would you not consider meeting with an attorney to protect yourself?

Tom2010 writes,


Thanks for writing. Your thoughts are with me. The Bible says to fear no man (or woman). But I do fear getting divorced. I fear the consequences of my kids growing up in single-parent homes or blended family homes. I fear for the soul of Honey, the sweetest person I ever met but whose choices now are diabolic. I fear the, what, $5k to $10k in legal bills I would pay, money that should be used for our wonderful daughters.

That said, I am taking a hard look at the effectiveness of my Plan A. Am I not doing the same thing I did last year with Honey except that now I commit few LB's, partly because we no longer live together and partly because I know better? Have I not given her lots of carrot but too little stick? ... I know what the answer of the vets on this board would be!

You also write,

Help writes,


She might be setting me up. She's done it in the past, such as when she moved out. She might be doing it now. But the six-month time limit ended in April. She is our kids' de facto primary guardian. That's the bad news. The good news is that her part of the state, in northern Virginia, is known as a 50/50 custody area.

Clark Kent writes,


I would, definitely. I have talked with my attorney, in person, twice. I educated myself on my rights. I just concluded, last October and this March, that the MB approach had a good chance of success and that fighting for custody in the Spring, before the six months expired, would lead to D.

---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
Wife has NOT filed

"Do you believe in MIRACLES? YESSSSSSSSS!!!" -- Al Michaels