I have a huge post on the basic forum but wanted to post here now. After thinking H and I were working on things and making progress the last couple of months, I discussed emails on his Blackberry last night to/from another woman. Just very upset today.

I've been working so hard on LBers and meeting his needs for 4-5 months now... Had already discovered texts about 4 mos ago that were inappropriate. He stopped all of that and we were going to work on things. Well, he stopped with one person and took up with someone else I guess!

I stayed pretty calm and composed with H but did cry a lot (no begging or pleading though). I basically told him there was no way to restore our marriage when he was involving outside people. I basically said he can either work on the marriage and stay, or he needs to go. I cannot live in an open marriage and I deserve better. I told him I am willing to own up to my mistakes and responsibilities but he has to be willing as well. I feel 20 years and 3 kids deserve that much.

I did not read any indication of a physical affair with this woman. H did not want to discuss it at all - just said it had nothing to do with us. (of course)

The big question becomes, if he doesn't want to work on the marriage but is willing to "try"...is that/should that be enough for me to stay in this???

Sunny, unless he is willing to end his affairs and take the necessary steps to recover, you are doomed to a death of a thousand cuts. What I mean by recover is giving you the true facts about his affair, opening up his life to you so that he is completely transparent and changing the environment that led to an affair. if he won't do that, then Plan B is warranted.

If he is an alcoholic, though, none of that will ever recover your marriage until he quits drinking and commits to a program of recovery.

What exactly does that mean to be "willing to try" not willing to do the work? That is some serious smack!

I'm sorry Sunny . I just joined the boards the other day, with many red flags going up to my husband having a EA at least. I have been plan A all weekend and guess what? the end result: he keeps saying, "i don't see how this can work". i was headed to border's this evening to grab the book "surviving the affair" recommended here but I have a sick 6yr old with a fever and frankly, i don't think it's going to do any good. my husband will never be transparent, has a work laptop and blackberry he now guards with his life(so there's NO way of me snooping) and he hasn't been a good husband to begin with. i know in my heart he's doing the wrong thing, i have fought the good fight, but my 5 kids and my 23 yrs deserve better too.
you will read a lot of help/wisdom regarding these issues and i will hope and pray for you that your hubby is receptive. mine is not, he has already left so why torture me and these kids? it's killing everyone.
blessings to you and your 3 precious kids-you will do the right thing, for yourself and for them

I agree. The affairs have been cyber/emotional, not physical, so he doesn't think it is as big a deal as I do, of course. I decided to wait a few days before pushing anything in terms of a plan of action. (disclosure, meeting needs, etc...)

OH - and sorry - my mistake on the AA. I meant Plan A! H is not a drinker... lol

SORRY...it didn't quote what I was replying to even though I tried replying to the direct response. Anyway, it was the following:

Sunny, unless he is willing to end his affairs and take the necessary steps to recover, you are doomed to a death of a thousand cuts. What I mean by recover is giving you the true facts about his affair, opening up his life to you so that he is completely transparent and changing the environment that led to an affair. if he won't do that, then Plan B is warranted.

If he is an alcoholic, though, none of that will ever recover your marriage until he quits drinking and commits to a program of recovery.

Meaning.. willing to do the work such as the needs/LB questionairres, putting time into the relationship, etc... even though he doesn't really want to right now. His feelings are not here. He is still in Withdrawal. (or mid-life crisis as some might say...but I don't know what I believe about MLC)

in response to:

What exactly does that mean to be "willing to try" not willing to do the work? That is some serious smack!

Mom in Pink,

I hear what you're saying! I'm feeling very similar myself, in a lot of ways. Don't know how much fight I have left in me for all this! Not feeling very strong today. I know I will get back to feeling strong...but just not at this moment.

I would say a weekend is probably way too short for Plan A to work. Don't you think? I've been (unknowingly) practicing plan A for months!

I don't have anyone really to expose this to, except for our 3 older kids...and that doesn't seem right. They know about the first indiscretions with Facebook and texts, but I do not want them to be in the middle of this.

I'm in the same sitch as you: H's laptop and blackberry both belong to his company so I have no means of discovering anything. I found the msgs the other night because I took his phone while he was sleeping. Installing keyloggers, etc... would be illegal since both are company property.

I will keep you in my prayers! This is so painful... no one should go through this.

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Right, of course his feelings are not there. Feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS. They do not come by magic. I have no idea what a mid life crisis is because we have 25 year olds and 60 year olds doing this same thing. I think MLC is a distraction.

What he needs to do is get off the computer and end his computer affairs. Will he do that? That is the most important first step. He should not be on the computer unless you are with him.

I would also slip a keylogger on his computer. You can get a good one at spectorpro.com. Get the eblaster version.

I thought I'd post a little background here that might be helpful.

I'm having a rough morning, I will admit it. I have no motivation. I feel like crap physically and mentally. I feel more depressed today than I have in a long time...maybe even more so than the original bomb. I don't know why. I feel like living in this crisis, combined with the house fire, financial issues, worrying about the kids, etc... is more than I can take. I'm not sure I have much positive energy left in me. I don't know that I have any fight left for this marriage.

Anyway, here's the synopsis:

- Me: stay-at-home mom for most of 20 yrs. H: Engineer

- H dropped bomb in April - he felt it was over. Typical Affair and/or mid-life crisis behavior and talk ensued.

- I tried to find evidence of affair for awhile but none found. However, did find some strange Facebook stuff.

- H did not leave the home or the bedroom. Claimed willingness
to work on things. I started what would be considered plan A. I addressed all his issues he claimed (LBers) to the best of my ability and still am. These areas came down to me getting help for my depression that I had been in for the last couple years: housekeeping, letting myself go, being a fun person to be around, managing finances better.

- Sexual text msg to an old girlfriend sent to me by H by mistake in June. Told H he was free to go. I would not live in an open marriage. He chose to stay. (It meant nothing, of course, he claimed.) He closed FB account.

- I went to counseling, H went once, didn't return. Didn't like being asked to hold a mirror to himself rather than blaming me for ALL our problems.

- I went back to school as H and I both agreed that was the
better option rather than workforce due to earning potential.
Part of getting my own life and plan A.

- No change in H's efforts in marriage. Convinced him to go to New Beginnings retreat for marriages in crisis. Learned a lot but H still not ready to fully commit to future. Told him he needed to at least work on things, or make the decision to go ahead and leave. 2nd time I offered him the door.. this was beginning of Aug. He once again chose not to leave.

- Better behavior ensued. H started participating with family,
no more talk of leaving, was home when supposed to be home. I
thought this was progress, but no real affection towards me
was shown. After 2 months of this, my gut flaired up again.
Hence...

- Discovery late Sat. night of the emails between H and some OW. (Not the same person as the sexting of June.) No talk of any physical contact, but I wouldn't doubt anything at this point. She appears to be out of state though. Lots of emotional stuff - wanting to be to with her - and a lot of his listening to her and being there for her, telling her she's beautiful, etc... VERY painful. It's been a long time since I've gotten that from him!!!

- The talk that came after my confronting him about it was more of the same ole, same ole. He still blaims me that his life is not what he wants. Still takes no personal responsibility. On one hand he doesn't want to hurt me or the kids, on the other, he wants his freedom and just believes it won't work. Offered once again for him to leave if he wanted to continue this EA.

- H DOES notices all the changes in me. Even commented that "now I am trying to be everything he wants..." but of course, it's "too late" and "the spark is just gone."

- Spent the evening last night being nice to me... trying to
meet my needs for once. Why? is the question!

During all of this I feel I have done a good job of not begging, pleading, or being angry - but calm, cool, and confident of my own position. (Not 100% of course, but mostly) My therapist thought I was doing a great job handling things. So good, in fact, I stopped going. It seemed pointless. I hope to get back to that point again - and soon!

Plan A should last 3 to 4 weeks for women and up to 6 months for men. Plan A only works 15% of the time to end an affair. Most often the BS has to go to Plan B, so I would start thinking about separation if you don't think your H will end his affair.

And I am not clear why you can't put a keylogger on a company laptop? I have done it. eblaster is virtually undetectable. If I thought my H was in an affair, you betcha I would slap a keylogger on his work laptop and risk going to jail!

Sunny, if you have evidence of his affair, the next step in saving your marriage is exposure of the affair. I suspect your H has been having an affair or affairs for quite some time which is the reason behind his desire for divorce.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposure is deadly to them. Can you find out more information? Who is this OW? Do you know where and how they are meeting up?
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Sunny, please get the book Surviving an Affair so the things we tell you here make sense.

Melody, by men/vs women do you mean that for a wayward husband a woman should expect to be in plan A for 6 months? Just clarifying.

I was advised it was illegal (keylogger) but I suppose that doesn't mean I can't do it I guess. Here's the thing: I have no access to his laptop, really. Even if I get my hands on it for a period of time I don't have the password to get into it. (I do know for a fact that his company requires everyone to password protect their computers.) SO... I would have to ask him for the password. Once I do that, he will delete anything, I'm sure.

And yes - I am considering Plan B at this point. I DO know that feelings follow action - which is why I am considering staying in Plan A if he is willing to do the questionaires and follow through with emotional needs and love busters, spending time together, etc... Some may consider it will not work, however, if he is only doing it to appease me, which he admits he would be.

I keep asking myself, why doesn't he just go then?!!!

Sunny, betrayed wives should be in Plan A for 3 to 4 weeks.

Even though an affair is emotional, that is just as dangerous to a marriage as a physical affair, if not more. But why are oyu so certain he is not having a PA? I suspect your H is living a very secret second life.

Have you thought about hiring a PI?

The reason is because you can't recover a marriage until all the truth comes out and the affair stops. You could be doing questionaires, etc, and it will amount to butkus if there is an affair going on.

I think your biggest opportunity to save your marriage is to uncover the affair and get this out into the open. This would make an amazing difference. Your H will remain foggy and committed to divorce until the affair is killed. And the affair can't be killed until it is dragged out into the light. Check out this quote by Dr Harley about the value of exposure:

here

Melody, I haven't read SA but will get it. I know the basics as I have read all the stuff on this site for days now. I know about exposure, protection, etc...

My problem is this: there is no one really for me to expose to. No one at H's work knows me or would care, it seems. I am not sure how I would even get in touch with them. H rarely even talks to his family members. In fact, he and his dad are not on speaking terms. His mom wouldn't care - she's cut and run several times herself. His sister...maybe....but they aren't close. My family members are all thousands of miles away. We have no mutual friends that H would really care about losing. He's an expert at cutting people out of his life. The only 3 people in this world he would care about their opinions would be our 3 children. At 14, 16, and 19 they are somewhat old enough - the older 2 esp. - but I'm being extremely careful about that. They Do know about the facebook/text indiscretions of several months ago.

As for proof: there is no proof of physical affair - it was not referenced in the msgs I read at all, so I don't believe it has gotten to that point. The earlier sex-texting (in June) was in reference to sex between him and his old gf years ago - not current. The new OW - in the recent emails - is out of state. I think he is just reaching to feel better about himself, but not bold enough to actually cross the line into a physical affair. WIth H, it keeps him from being the bad guy, in his mind - that he can say it's not really an affair. (He knows I feel it most definitely is, physical or not!)

At their ages, your children are not "somewhat old enough" ; they old enough several times over.

I was younger than all of them when I found out about the affair in my parents' marriage, and I would hate for it to have been going on years before I found out.

Just keep in mind this will all be a waste of time if he is in an affair. These are recovery tactics and there can be no recovery if he is in an active affair. That would be like an alcoholic going to AA meetings drunk. He will never get anything because he is intoxicated. It is the same with an adulterer, they are high on the affair.

Sunny, if your H is even remotely serious about recovery, ask him for the full name and # of his OW. Ask him to give you all the details about the affair.

If he is serious about recovery, he will tell you all.

I suspect he will balk at this. And be sure and tell him that as his wife, you have right to know each and every thing he does and who he speaks to.

This guy has a carefully constructed secret second life that you know very little about, I suspect.

OK: I now agree, after reading the article again, that the kids are old enough to know. Thanks, Markos, for your comments!

So, I guess the question becomes when to tell them and how. Do I wait to see if H is willing to go transparent first?

Is that my next step - to "demand" that their be total transparency: handing over email/laptop passwords, cellphone accessibility, etc... ???

I don't know if I can afford a PI right now. Part of our issue at the moment is some heavy financial burden. We have joint accts so H can see every transaction I make.

I agree, if he is involved with OW, no work will work!

Thanks for the help, Melody!

If so, when? (I feel I need to wait a few days at least - until I'm feeling a bit stronger, emotionally.)

Sunny, it is obvious this is an emotional affair. Which is just as bad as a PA. I don't believe he hasn't had a PA. I think it just has been well hidden.


Again, an EA is just as damaging. I agree he is having affairs to make himself better. That is why ALL adultery takes place.



Sunny, there is not much you can do until you uncover the truth. I would try and slap a keylogger on his computer, put a voice activated recorder in his car, put a GPS on his car. Can you swing a PI?

Why not try to find out what is going on first and THEN ask for this when you get to the truth. I would go get a voice activated recorder at Walmart and stick it in his car to see if you pick up anything.

What is his pattern? When would he correspond or see an OW? Have you followed him? What does he do for lunch?

Have you ever dropped into see him at work? How do his coworkers react to you? Are they nervous around you?