I am now about to put my hand into a hornets nest. I am not a prowokative person. And I do this with more than a little doubt. Yet I do so in the hope of helping some of the excellent posters on this site to gain even a greater knowledge and understanding. A-hm. Yes, I do in fact mostly address this thread to female posters. Some of them MB veterans who have done an excellent job of helping hundreds of M survive.
I will try to be a little bit humble.


I have in all my humbleness started to wander if women really can understand men. At least there are sides to being a man that most of the excellent woman posters here at MB are ignorant about. In fact I think they have they have no idea at all!
In this thread I will address two issues where I feel women here on MB do not understand the depths in the male psyche. First the one I have labelled A:


A) The doubts and uncertainty a man may feel whether he is the biological father to his child / children. First, please realise, honoured female readers, that this issue is a very different one from that of taking on the task and responsibility of being father to an adopted child. In that case there is no doubt as to whether a betrayal has taken place, there is no pain and no wound to overcome! But a child born in the M which may be (or knowingly is) not the bio-child is a huge issue! Even husbands who live in happy M with no reason to suspect any unfaithfulness from their W will still some times feel this uncertainty. Are all of my children really mine? Yes, I think all fathers have felt a little bit of this doubt from time to time!


Thus the hurt and pain and uncertainty of a BH is a big one. A BH knows about a betrayal. So the question of biology can no longer easily be dismissed. Yes, this issue is big!
When you go to the pregnancy/child forum you can observe time and again that there is a gender difference in how this issue is dealt with in the posts.. When this is an issue there will be some posts from male posters offering sympathy, but soon the thread is taken over by female posters who strive to minimize the issue with slogans like �it is not the sperm that makes a father!�. There is some truth in a statement like that. But time and again I am struck by the obvious lack of understanding to the depth of this issue. Yes, I am sometimes really surprised how ignorant many of the very excellent female advisors here on MB are on the depths of this issue in the mind of the BH.


The issue of an OC is a deep one. The very child that the BS now loves and has taken on as his own, is also a very powerful trigger to the deepest pain the BS ever has experienced. It is a daily reminder of his perceived failure as a male, husband and a lover. It is a reminder that his wife preferred an OM to him sexually and emotionally. (Or does he wonder, is it still �prefers�?)


In this thread I will probably not raise issue A again, and I expect issue B that you will find in my next post to provoke far more responses. But please do not forget this one. The issue with an OC is a big one, as is the pain when the bio-origin is in doubt.


A BH who take on the task and obligations to be a father and invests love in an OC should really be recognized as a hero!


As a side issue: The BS pain on parenthood does not justify a betrayal from the BS to the child. An abortion or the choice of being a bad parent for the child is a grave sin and a terrible betrayal. The child is an innocent part! I am equally surprised by how a few male posters are able to completely disregard this part!

To continue with topic B:

B) Often during an A the WW is much more free, willing and motivated in the SF with the OM than she ever was with the BH. Often a WW volunteer to do acts with the OM which she consistently has rejected to do with the BS throughout their M. In this case you female posters seem completely ignorant in how big an issue this is. The thread of Outofkilter is an excellent example. I will return to this topic in the next posts. For some reasons many of you female posters think it is OK for the WW to continue to refuse this when she returns to the M and the BS.

Of course she is: As she is free to stop talking to her BS, as she is free to stop sharing their financial burdens, or as she is free to refuse to take part in the housekeeping, as she is free to refuse any SF at all! But realise than that the BS is equally free to then go for a divorce. And you female readers, you would be really surpriced by how many male readers would concider this choice of the WW to be a dealbreaker. You seem completely ignorant to how big an issue this is for males.

Somehow female posters have monopolised what is �political correct� to say on these matters here in the forums. Many a BH stay off these threads altogether and only a few newbee male posters offer sympathy for the BH pain and for the position he has been brought into by this particular betrayal. These posters do so in politically incorrect terms and they offer non-MB like advice So they are quickly brought to silence. In the next post I have collected some of the posts on this issue taken from outofkilters thread. The gender difference should be observed in these statements:

These are statements taken from the thread of Outofkilters, a very interesting thread in many ways. I have selected statements than touch into the topic of the present thread:


Outofkilter: The sex issue is complicated. It's humiliating to admit this, but during my A I acted like a real slut... totally out of character for me. Some of the things I did would not be healthy to do in a marriage (I won't go into details, but there was another person involved in some acts). Others are completely against my morals, and didn't I get myself and my family in this mess by not respecting myself? But there were/are some things I would like to try w/ my husband, but unfortunately it's the stuff he is not interested in. BTW I find it very difficult to let go and be vulnerable with someone that used to call me all these names (he doesn't do that anymore but he is always furious with me, which is also hard); and plus anytime I have opened up w him I feel he has used it against me by freaking out that I have 'learned from other man'. And then my BH hasn't accepted certain things which he has to accept. For instance, in his mind because I never refused OM for sex, I should never refuse him. That's just not realistic even under the best of circumstances as this is marriage not an affair.... I know this is not fair, but it is the way that it is. So there are all these hangups, which in his mind are my problem to solve... BUT in my mind we need both of us to solve them.


the Road: If you were able to do all those with a smile for the OM and your BH has always wanted these things from you has made it almost impossible for your BH not to expect the same performances. It's another story if the things you did with the OM were a total turn off for BH and he never wants to do these things. Your BH may never even thought to ask you to do these things before but you woke up the sleeping dragon.

Shaken: He is right. You are wrong. You are making your husband second. You were willing to be another man's sl**, but you can't be that way for the man who married you.
That's a double standard and not only have you emasculated your husband, you continue to devalue him by proving you were willing to devalue yourself for someone who wasn't your husband.

It was realistic enough for you for the OM. Yet you deny your husband his wishes. I can understand his anger.
Angel: The difference is that she was in love with the OM and it didn't feel like a "request" for different sexual favors but a natural progression of their love for each other. She never felt like she was a $lut to the OM.


Schoolbus in her suggested letter to outofkilters BH: I cannot do some things from the affair with you, because these things remind me of the depth of degradation that I sank to. I am not that person anymore, and I never want to be that person again. Deep inside, I know you do not want to be married to the person who did those things, either. Our love life can be wonderful again, when we agree together on the things that are mutually and enthusiastically enjoyable for both of us. Things that degrade either of us, truthfully, degrade both of us. Together we can find new things to do - and there is a way forward that could be pretty exciting....I propose we do that instead.

I would love to have a marriage that is built on openness, honesty, sexual fulfillment for both of us, companionship that builds our trust for each other again, and a way that both of us can fall in love and stay in love.


Martialbliss: You're kidding, right? Shaken, NO ONE should be obligated to perform sexual acts that they would be uncomfortable performing. This is out of line for her husband to demand. I appreciate his devastation, but this is unacceptable behavior on her H's part.


Americajin: This post is taking a LOT of things for granted. For example, how does anyone here know exactly WHAT sexual acts the husband is demanding? Have you ever known a betrayed husband to demand that his WW perform a threesome? Perhaps it can be anal sex (which someone suggested) or something as simple as oral sex, which maybe she refused to do before? We don't know specifics, now do we? There have been wayward wives before that refused to have ANY sex with their husbands but were only too willing to have frequent sex with their scumbag affair partner. Her husband may just be pissed that she wouldn't do things that he had asked before that she was happy to oblige her AP with.

We are so willng to believe a woman that admits that her husband tried everything he could to stop the affair, who admits that she continued her perfidy IN HIS FACE, and I have to wonder why? Just because she says she's sorry? Well, I would agree that someone that would pull threesomes is pretty sorry. I just love people who talk about their morals, or tout their Christianity, when it's convenient for them to do so.

That's why I suggested that she contact the Harley's. Good luck getting this one back on track.


Martialbliss:Yep, we know what 'kind' of sex her H wants. He wants sexual acts she doesn't want to participate in! What did you miss about that??

Sexual acts that are not mutually agreed upon are acts that are not in balance. One participant is submissive, the other controlling the act. When either person does not agree with this structure it is unhealthy for the M, not healthy.

Would it make a difference if it was, say, sex with a threesome is bad, but sex with a cucumber is good? What does the type of sex have to do with it?? Oral, anal, what's the difference?

Atema: outof kilter is not posting any more. I guess there is something in all this she is not saying. I read the whole thread.
I just cannot believe that the fog makes you do sexual acts you would not do with your H or W. Like threesomes.
By all means, she should not do those with her BH, because it would be like doing the wrong thing over and over again and once was enough.
But how can you be so fogged up as to do that sort of stuff? Plus, it also tells a lot about the OM and the kind of trash he was.

Bubbles4you: She should not have to do types of sex she does not want to do. But then why why why did she eagerly do it with the other man???
That sounds pretty creepy to me. If it was so good with the other man why can't she branch out, at least if the offending sex was simple oral sex, and share that kind of sex with her husband. I can see never having anal or threesomes. Oral or light bondage she can share it with her own husband if she had it with her lover.
And why withhold sex from her husband turning him down when she never turned down the lover. The whole thing is bad. And she does not see how she is hurting her husband.

In this post there is a letter written by Schoolbus, a wise and knowledgeable poster who has helped many here with her advice, and her empathetic (sp?) support to people in pain. The letter was originally intended for outofkilters BH and it can be found in Outkilters thread.

Background: Outofkilters has during her A eagerly committed sexual acts with the OM which she now feel ashamed of and she is unwilling to share them or similar acts with her BH. This letter was intended to explain to him why he was not entitled to expect any of that in their M. I really hope Outofkilters has not made this letter her own and given it to her BS. If she was to give it to him I am pretty certain that the effect on the BS would be quite opposite to what she intended and this letter would increase the likelihood of an ugly divorce.
(By the way: Outoflilters BS is not being nice towards her. Please do not make that a topic of this discussion. The topic of this thread is not outofkilters M. The topic is how (I believe) female posters fail to understand how males perceive this letter and other posts that tries to explain the same thing.

Rather than to explain the male psyche to female readers (that is the strength of Just Learning to do) I have translated the original letter to the opposite gender�s issues. Hopefully female readers will then have a little idea of how a male BS would read the original letter. Thus, Imagine now that the betrayer was a male and the BS was a BW. This is the letter from the WH:


Dear Wife,

A few years ago I committed adultery with a woman who participated with me in a number of acts that, at the time, I thought were supposed to be liberating and would show me to be some kind of male who was of superior romantic prowess. I did ever wake up and realize how wrong I was before you busted us.

The worst day of my life was when you discovered the affair, because my behaviour was out in the light and because I realised that the greatest love I ever have felt now would have to stop. Yet, because I was still locked into the deep feelings I felt for this woman, I continued on with all of it. My behaviour was, and still is, inexcusable. It took me far too long to stop the affair. It took me far too long to stop lying to you. It took me far too long to tell you all that you wanted to know about the affair.


I wanted to be a Knight in shining armour for her. I walked long romantic walks with her in the moonlight on the silent paths along the river. The very same paths that you showed me back when we were engaged. To the sound of a lazily moving water I shared with her my deepest thoughts and all of my dreams. I felt a freedom from the restrains that often makes the communication between you and me so forced and shallow. I could talk, and I could listen like ever before in my life. I shared with her all my hopes for the future. I did in this borrow much from what you and I previously had planned and hoped for. In that way the OW and I gave each other the full access to each others hearths and hopes. We planned our future together and we declared each other an eternal love that surpasses anything we had felt for any of our previous partners and lovers.

I know that you have always wanted to experience moments like these in our M. But you must know and understand that when I am with you I feel a restraint which makes me clumsy with my words and acts. Besides, my thoughts always start to wander if you and I try to create a romantic experience. True; during our engagement period We did find romance, but to do so now is unrealistic in the everyday life of a M. For the sake of our kids I have now returned to our M and to you. But please realize that what I had with her can never be in our M. You see, she and I were true solemates of a heavenly kind. We were created to be together. Unfortunately life interfered and this can not be. Such a connection between man and woman is not possible in a standard M like the one you and I have. It is entirely unrealistic to hope for such depths of feelings.

Thus, it is not of any kind of belittlement to you when I tell you that true romance is now not possible with you and I. You are a fantastic woman and I am fortunate that you still want to stay with me after my betrayal. The fact that there will never be a true romance in our M is not your fault. I could only experience this with a truly special person. Not one, not you nor anyone else can be blamed for not being created to fill the standard she filled in my life.


I know that you still have pain, because you talk of needing to know more romantic details from the A, and you ask for me to do romantic things from the affair with you. I cannot do these romantic things from the affair with you, because these things remind me of the deep and special love I felt with this woman. And the deep loss I feel in knowing that she will never be mine again. I am not that person anymore, and I never want to be that person again. I can only be that person when I am with her.

Our life can be wonderful again, when we agree together on the things that are mutually and enthusiastically enjoyable for both of us. Things that are not felt right to do for both of us truthfully, degrade both of us. Together we can find new things to do - and there is a way forward that could be pretty exciting. I propose we do that instead. I am truly sorry that I will never ever be able to live up to your romantic expectations. But I would love to have a marriage that is built on openness, honesty, sexual fulfilment, and companionship. I am sure this can be done without shared romantic experiences. Then both of us can experience a realistic level of happiness in our lives.

I have plans to start today. I hope that you will start with me.


Love, Your Husband.

B) Often during an A the WW is much more free, willing and motivated in the SF with the OM than she ever was with the BH.
****edit****

I hope my character Frank57 here in MB will survive this thread. He has I believe put his hand in a hornet nest. In Norway where I live time is now nearly 03 AM. So I will not know until tomorrow.
I look forward to read your responses!

Frank, I don't think you understand what it takes to recover a marriage if you think it is ok for her to engage in sexual acts with her husband that disgust her. I understand fully that he is hurt that she engaged in sex acts with him that she won't with her H. That really is irrelevant to what it takes to recover her marriage. You seem to believe the solution is for her to sacrifice on his behalf.

An addict will do disgusting things while drunk that they would never dream of doing while sober. I put these sex acts in the same category. Bringing the past into the present will not help the marriage recover.

The most important thing you are missing is what it takes to create a loving sex life. If she does things with him that she finds disgusting, then she soon will not be having sex with him at all. People won't do unpleasant things for long. Pretty soon she will mentally associate disgust and unpleasantness with having sex and will develop a big fat ole aversion. And when that happens, the sex life is OVER.

In order to be willing to have sex, there have to be two elements in place for women: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment.

A husband who demands she perform disgusting sex acts with him has just destroyed both elements. She obviously will not feel an emotional attachment to a man who selfishly demands sex acts he knows she finds disgusting.

And let me ask you what kind of man WANTS a wife to not enjoy sex with him? I don't know of many who would.

The solution, Frank, is to be found in Marriage Builders materials and it surprises me you don't know this. The solution to a satisfying sexual life is to make sure that BOTH partners enjoy it; NOT just one at the others expense.

Mel rote

"Frank, I don't think you understand what it takes to recover a marriage if you think it is ok for her to engage in sexual acts with her husband that disgust her. I understand fully that he is hurt that she engaged in sex acts with him that she won't with her H. That really is irrelevant to what it takes to recover her marriage. You seem to believe the solution is for her to sacrifice on his behalf."

I have not ever stated that she should. My point is that the female readers are unable to understand how the BH will see an additional betrayal in the refusal of the WW to engage in the same acts with him. Thus my focus is on the lack of understandig to the depths of this issue. It is not an equally shallow statement of what the duty of the WW should be in this situation.

Many BH will be very tempted to go for D should their WW go by the solution advocated by the female posters on this topic. Observing this lack of understanding obviously makes me a male pig. OK. But try to say something as to why ?

Frank, When ANYONE is "forced" to perform a sexual act against their will, it is called RAPE. Married people CAN and DO experience rape. Telling a woman that she needs to sexually satisfy her BH in whatever way he deems right is WRONG on so many levels. It is not about being politically correct, it is about doing the right thing.

There definitely ARE gender differences. There are different ENs which tend to go along gender lines. SF tends to favour H's. I don't think that comparing romantic gestures to SF even comes close. I have never seen a person accuse someone of forcing them to perform romantic gestures.

Saying that you know that you have stuck your hand in a hornet's nest, does in NO WAY excuse your posts.

WH's tend to do things with OW that they NEVER do with their BWs. Sometimes they NEVER do. It is sometimes things that their BW have ALWAYS dreamed of, but will NEVER see. People in affairs do things that they normally wouldn't do. It isn't about gender. It just is.

The affair itself is a HUGE betrayal. I DO understand that her BH will be unhappy with her unwillingness to perform sexual acts that she did perform with OM. It is something they will need to get through TOGETHER. POJA.

If her BH decides that he would D her because he can't get her to perform these acts, then that is his right. OOK made that decision when she chose to have an affair. What if she does everything that her BH asks for in regards to SF and he still decides to D her? What would you tell her then?

SF, for women happens first in the mind and second in the body. There are times when a woman can get "caught up" in an act of sex that when she is thinking more clearly, she regrets. As ML pointed out, would you suggest that she have SF in whatever way her BH demands just to please him?

Again, I have not in any way made any statement as to what the WW should do in this situation. Thus your answer does not address me in any way. My point is that many female readers seem unable to understand the BH pain in this situation.

The answers to this thread so far certainly supports this point of view since any of them has been able to read what I have written.

Again: I have not suggested that anyone should be "forced to perform a sexual act against their will". Please keep your response to what I have written! My point is a lack of understanding an empathy for the BH position!


Edited to include:
This I did write:

"For some reasons many of you female posters think it is OK for the WW to continue to refuse this when she returns to the M and the BS.

Of course she is:"

Yes, of course she is!! As is the BH in his full right when he draws his conclusion regarding to whom the loyalty of the WW belongs to from this choice of hers. His conclusion may be wrong, but you can bet this is what he will see in it. You are very unrealistic if you think that he will not perceive this choice in that manner.

Thus we are back to my topic: You do not understand how the BH must percieve this situation that he finds himself in. And when you do not understand this, how can your support to a couple in this situation be optimal?

I'm not addressing the issue of piggery.

I would just to ask, first, what makes you think that women do not understand how it feels for a man to doubt his paternity?

Some women who have been BWs have to face an OC. The situations are not identical, but I imagine that the pain levels from each situation are similar.

Second, are you aware that some BWs feel the same doubts about their sexual appeal after finding out that their WH had sex with another woman? Are you aware that the same questions arise about what they did, and how often? Are you aware that "mental movies" cause trauma for some BWs as well as for BHs? Are you aware that some BWs live with the knowledge that sex for the affairees was better - because of the illicit nature of affairs?

Can you imagine how that affects the BW's side of the marriage - perhaps forever?

I am not a man, and I have never been betrayed, so I will never fully understand the horror I put DH through four and a half years ago.

But I will say this, we didn't recover our M by him grinding axes everywhere he went. Or by him reaping some kind of secondary benefit by keeping me under his punishing toe for the last four years. Or by obsessing enough over a stranger's thread to start his very own thread so that he can quote everything she wrote.

Yes, I confessed my A, Made amends, put in EP's, showed the "fruits of repentance." But what I did was nothing special....it was the LEAST I could do after my terrible choice. We recovered because of what my DH chose to do, the fact that he chose to stay, and what he chose to let go of.

Frank, I guess maybe what you posted was misread by all of us women.

What you quoted, as I have not read the original thread, was supposed to support your argument. What I read was a bunch of posts telling the WW to perform whatever sexual acts that her BH asked of her and female posters suggesting that that was the wrong thing to advise. This may have been where the confusion happened. Because the quotes that YOU chose to include read as someone suggesting that this WW needs to perform ALL sex acts that her BH deems appropriate.

If you were misunderstood, perhaps you could state more clearly what you are trying to argue?

You are wrong that female readers are unable to understand how a BH feels. We fully understand. Now, so what? What matters is how they recover the marriage. And his tactic of endlessly bringing up the affair 3 years later will not recover the marriage much less make her desire him.


I dare say that Dr Harley is a MAN, my friend. I posted a Dr Harley article as my suggestion.

Yes he should.

So should those women like faithful follower, who take OC into their family. Some BWs here have fought for full custody of OC, and others like faithy are lovingly active in their care and upbringing.

Some men, like the stalwart of that forum, pops, have agreed with the "slogan" that �it is not the sperm that makes a father!� They are living proof of that "slogan", and you do them a disservice to turn this into an issue of women's lack of empathy.

I feel sickened at the thought that a BH might sever the relationship with the adult child that he has raised, if he find out at this late stage that he is not the bio father. Your post would appear to empathise with his feelings, despite your statement that "he choice of being a bad parent for the child is a grave sin and a terrible betrayal. The child is an innocent part! I am equally surprised by how a few male posters are able to completely disregard this part!"

Abandonment of the child is the logical outcome of your claim that the child is the reminder of the man's perceived failure.

A child is so much more than that.

I don't think you are being humble and I do think you are being provocative, but you have the right to post as you wish.

Frank, I don't think you understand that it is irrelevant. I would argue that we do understand. But an understanding is not relevant to the solution. The solution remains the same.

The goal here is to find solutions. Not to understand the depth of someone's pain.

I actually know plenty of happily married men whose lives have not been touched by an A who I am absolutely sure would disagree with you on this one.

How does understanding his pain change the solution? What is the relevance?

Oh, and my H is the one who completely believes that sperm has very little to do with being a father. These have been his words far more than they've been mine. I may be writing them, since he isn't much into posting on forums, but he is the one who I hear them from time and time again. I actually had some doubts about this in the beginning, but his actions toward our OC and the obvious love and devotion he shows toward her everyday has convinced me that he means what he says.