****edit****

sugar cane wrote:
I'm not addressing the issue of piggery.

I would just to ask, first, what makes you think that women do not understand how it feels for a man to doubt his paternity?

This is based on the responce from a number of excelent posters to posters in this situation. I have felt that they were not up to their usual standard of understanding and emphaty, and that they were quicker to expect the BS to get over it. This is my impression, it is not based on statistics or a systematic study.



Some women who have been BWs have to face an OC. The situations are not identical, but I imagine that the pain levels from each situation are similar.

For women who have experienced an OC, and taken it into the M to raise as her own, yes I believe the situation would be very similar.

Second, are you aware that some BWs feel the same doubts about their sexual appeal after finding out that their WH had sex with another woman? Are you aware that the same questions arise about what they did, and how often? Are you aware that "mental movies" cause trauma for some BWs as well as for BHs? Are you aware that some BWs live with the knowledge that sex for the affairees was better - because of the illicit nature of affairs?



Yes I am aware that women who have experienced this will have similar feelings as to a man who has experienced his wife to volunter acts with the OM as she refuses to do with him. Yet the advice to the man would be that he is not entitled to the same enthusiastic acts in his M. Would the BW in your scenario receive the same advice? I doubt it! She should be encouraged to work for a rewarding SF with her FWH.

Can you imagine how that affects the BW's side of the marriage - perhaps forever?

I realize that like I, the female posters I have written to here have a potential to understand more, particular in posts from female posters. Though some of them has impressed me deeply and I have them generally in a high regard. I probably can not read posts from female posters to the same depths that I can with male posters. Yet I think I understand much, though I am not as understanding as some of the posters to whom I addressed this thread. My hope was that they should understand some more of how men works. I now feel that this was not achieved.
But I will not categorize any one who would point my lack of understanding out to me as a female chauvinist!

This is disingenuous. You made a point and now are denying the point you made. There was much more after "of course she is" which was a facetious comment that indicated you most certainly are advocating she perform affair sex with him:


So you are equating the withholding of weird affair sex with withdrawing from the marriage. Which it is not. It is a false analogy. No one would ever advise her to stop talking to her husband because it would be bad for her marriage. But so would having unpleasant sex with her husband.

So please don't try and pretend that is not what you are advocating, because it is.

And if you aren't advocating that, then there is no point of contention. case closed!

I asked my DH if he had doubts about either of our children being his.....He looked at me like I had three heads and a tail and answered no.

Honestly, if a man is plagued by doubts about his kids' DNA and his W has never been unfaithful, that speaks way more to his mental instability than it does to her understanding of "the male perspective."

The people who helped me most in our recovery helped me not because they could commiserate with me about my pain or because they could pat DH and say, "Yeah, those hussy-fied WW's are trash." The people who helped us the most were the people who focused on OUR M instead of projecting their own hurts onto our situation. Many of them are on this forum, and they have never been a man or a WW....but they knew what was TRUE. And that truth is what helped.

"SF, for women happens first in the mind and second in the body. There are times when a woman can get "caught up" in an act of sex"

How is the BH supposed to accept that WW was able to have threesomes with the OM and not him?

How is the BH to not think that WW loved OM more or was turned on more by the OM to do things with the OM but not BH?

How is there to be just compensation if the WW won't do for the BH what she did for the OM?

For has it not been said that a BS should go to the places and get to do the things the WS did with the OP to reclaim those things back from the affair?

Just Compensation seems to be a myth.

I don�t advocate threesomes.

How is this BH to be made whole when his WW won�t give him what he wants?

He just wants what his WW gave the OM. (we don�t know what his WW did for the OM)

This BH will have to be convinced that wanting what WW did with the OM is not want he should want. That is going to be hard to do when all his injured mind is seeing the WW performing for the OM and her now telling BH no way.

To all!

So you still think the original letter from schoolbus was the best approach to take to a BH who has experienced this? Can you not see how provocative it must be for him to read?

Can you not see the parallel to my translated version?

Why ask?

Why not just present the test results just to burry the smallest doubt, even as aprotective measure against a future doubt?

I agree that the BW should strive for a rewarding sex life with her FWH, as should WW's with their BH's.

However, as I explained earlier, the path to a good sex life is NOT to demand that your wife perform sex acts she finds disgusting. That will not get the BH what he wants, but will instead make his wife averse to sex.

I don't think you get that part, Frank, because I don't think you are familiar with Marriage Builders concepts about sacrifice and POJA.

You don't have the slightest idea what Just compensation even means. Do you honestly believe that JC means doing things that are HARMFUL to the marriage? That is a ludicrous suggestion.

Show me WHERE Dr Harley ever says a WW should submit to a BH's sexual demands? That goes against everything MB teaches and against what it takes to recover a marriage.

No, I don't. All I can see is that you are being inflammatory and are provocative on threads where you have nothing positive to contribute. ***edit***and keep your biases to yourself.

Road, I think Luri asked her H that question because of this discussion. I don't think her H has any doubts about the paternity of their children or is asking for a DNA test.

Certainly you're not saying that every single married couple should have DNA tests performed on all of their children just to make sure they really belong to the H. That's taking things way overboard in situations where there has not been an A and the paternity of the children is not in question.

Care to explain this?

It depends on the time frame. And then there can be more than one PA over the years. Unfortunatly the BH only knows about the one but does not know about the other's. Along with a WW may honestly believe it could of been her BH's, but was the OM's.

Well, in Luri's case, her A happened when her children were older, so I don't think either one of them are questioning paternity. I think she was responding to Frank's assertion that all men, even those whose marriages have not been touched by an A, question the paternity of their children, and I just don't believe this is true. I know plenty of men who would just never even think to question paternity, because they have absolutely no reason to.

I'm not in favor of 3somes or forcing a WW to do sf that she does not want to do. How does the BH get convinced that what he thinks is fair not fair? And what about where a BS and a WS are told to go places and do things to reclaim things back from the OP?

This is why there can never be just compensation. The acts of an afair can never be undone. And WS's are allowed to refuse to do what they feel is wrong.

All the BH see's is the WW had no problems doing this for two years. Now because it's the BH wanting to get the same treatment as the OM the BH is wrong.

So the BH got sit there for two years while his WW is giving everything to the OM and he can't even get a kiss good bye on his way to work.

Now he's wrong to expect what his WW freely gave the OM?

His WW does not see this?

I think WW does not want to do it because it reminds her of the PA with OM. WW putting herself first again.

The goal is not to convince a BH of fairness if it involves sacrifice on the part of his wife. That won't build a happy marriage. The path to a happy marriage excludes sacrifice.



Of course he is if it disgusts her and involves acts that are unpleasant to her. Selfish demands and disgusting sex acts do not a happy, romantic marriage make.


Can I ask how it is that you have been on Marriage Builders for years and understand virtually nothing about the program? If it reminds her of the OM, then of course she shouldnt do it. No matter WHY it is unpleasant is irrelelvant. If it is unpleasant it should be avoided.

[TheRoad, I want to know how it is that you have been here for 3 years and know absolutely nothing about Marriage Builders. Do you even own a MB book?

edit

Seems to me a FWS avoiding being reminded of an affair is putting their BS first, not themselves.

(Of course, others have correctly pointed out that it doesn't matter why it is unpleasant; if it is unpleasant, it should be avoided. I'm starting to think Dr. Harley boils down almost all talking about feelings to "It bothers me when you ..." and "I'd like it if you ...")

Yes the WW says: "Even though I did it every day for two years with the other man, eagerly and hungrily I PREFER not to have that kind of sex with you, my husband."

How does the husband feel hearing this? Terrible.