You still claim that you know better then me what I think. So this discussion is now ridicules. I will spend no more time on you. All readers on this thread are able to judge for themselves. But you have disappointed me. Before this thread I held you in a high regard.

What has to be said is that she will not perform pig pen affair sex with the BH because her marriage means much more to her than a stinky affair.

And what they need to create together is a fantastic sex life that results from being in love. A woman needs to be in love to enjoy sex so that needs to be the focus.

writer1 answered this:�I think the problem here is an erroneous assumption that the WW did what she did with the OM out of love, when in fact, A's have very little to do with being in love. Certainly, the wayward believes they are in love with the OP, but love involves many things that are simply not present in an A. The WW is not acting out of true love when she does things that she would normally find repulsive and disgusting with the OM. She is acting out of desperation to hold onto her addiction, and she will often do things she would never normally do in order to assure that she continues to get her "fix" from the OM. That has absolutely nothing to do with love.�

W1 on the money, sometimes. I was going to post this to her but I post it to her and you now.

Writer1 how do you get her BH to accept this and that he�s not going to get what the OM got?

Why does it suck to be me? The amount of sex I get from her (none) is only a little less than what she offered while married, LOL. My ex-wife is the one who is no longer on my checks, running up my credit cards. Child support is a bargain compared to what she was spending

Now what does suck is not being able to be with my child every day because the courts don't consider infidelity a reason to grant primary custody to the betrayed father instead of until right before the divorce, a stay at home mother who has family locally.

So yeah, that part does suck, because my daughter sees there are few if any consequences to her mother's affair.

My concern is she'll grow up expecting everything just works out for her, or her family will fix it when things don't. She gets quite the contrast, having to face the consequences of her actions when she is with me, having to budget her allowance because I don't buy her stuff just because she said she wants it, etc. (Contrary to what her mother and maternal grandparents do.)

So aspects of it suck. But in the big picture, I really think it sucks more for my XWW than it does for me.

Divorce sucks for all involved. It just sucks less for the BH because he gets rid of a WW who apparently doesn't love him.

I am talking about her CASE and applying Dr Harley's principles. It doesn't matter if there are 10 or 1000 similar cases, what matters is HER situation.

And in her situation, the sex acts she did in her affair disgust her so she shouldn't bring them into the marriage.

But what SPECIFICS are folks suggesting? I've seen some very vague terms such as offer better, more exciting, etc. But no one has yet addressed the idea that he gets to decide what comprises better, more exciting, etc to him.

Some have suggested that he is right to conclude she doesn't love him.

OK, what then? Work together to build love. Good, but vague step. How does she present a credible argument that she's all about that and willing to meet his needs in light of the apparent contradictory information the BH has to deal with?

�I think the problem here is an erroneous assumption that the WW did what she did with the OM out of love, when in fact, A's have very little to do with being in love. Certainly, the wayward believes they are in love with the OP, but love involves many things that are simply not present in an A. The WW is not acting out of true love when she does things that she would normally find repulsive and disgusting with the OM. She is acting out of desperation to hold onto her addiction, and she will often do things she would never normally do in order to assure that she continues to get her "fix" from the OM. That has absolutely nothing to do with love.�

This can be the truth in outofkilters story.

No one has been able to but it into words that her BH will accept that he's never going to get from his WW what the OM got.

How is the BH to believe what Writer1 said. When the BH didn't get the goods until the WW fell in love with him.

Thus BH can only believe that his WW must of loved the OM more because look at all the extras she did for the OM.

BH has to then conclude that WW refusing must mean that she will never love me as much as she did the OM.

How is this BH going to believe what Writer1 say's over his own logic?

I have no idea. They would have to work that out amongst themselves because this is completely contingent upon personal tastes.


Its not vague at all. This program has very specific steps towards recovery. If I were her, I would approach him and tell him she wants more than anything to create a romantic, passionate marriage. Then present him with this program.

And her plan will not necessarily be credible just because she TELLS him this. She will have to demonstrate her sincerity and prove her credibility. Just because she SAYS something does not mean she is credible.

Yes and no. Her refusal, no matter how well intentioned may have a lot more power over her BH than other words.

That's the problem the WW creates when she refused/refuses her husband something she gave the OM.

Again, I'm not saying she should give that to her husband. What I'm saying it will likely serve as an ACTION that discredits any words she has prior presented saying she loves him, will do what it takes to recover the marriage etc.

Even if we all believe it to be true, even if we believe sacrifice is bad, etc. The question will still loom. OK, why was she willing to sacrifice for him, but not for me.

Because to call it a sacrifice doesn't help out her case. Instead, it will have the appearance OM was worth the sacrifice, but BH wasn't.

If the BH puts a value on sacrifice, romanticizes it, such as the heroic notion of throwing oneself on a live grenade in combat, then he just may see his WW as willing to perform heroically for OM, but she's not so heroic with respect to him.

Now again, all the "facts" about if it was or wasn't real love, or is sacrifice good or not good for the marriage really don't matter when facing the feeling side of this issue.

Frank....

I'm appauled at the liberty you took with schoolbus's recommended letter about why this FWW doesn't want to engage in group sex with her Husband.

You took a beautiful letter and SICKLY twisted it.

Now you and a few others are suggesting this FWW participate in group sex BECAUSE she did it with OM.

HOW RIDICULUS!

Waywards make immoral choices when they commit adultery and based on some posters reasoning a FWS should be willing to hang onto their IMMORAL behaviors so long as it pleases the BS??

NOT A CHANCE!

THIS IS NOT REASONING, THIS IS STUPIDITY!

The BS needs a repentent wayward willing to UNDO their immoral behaviors and replace them with moral choices. When a BS demands the immoral, it's time for the BS to clean up their own act.

**EDIT** beleivable!

Now it's contridictory if a FWS wants to behave in a way that re-establishes their character.

Ya'll that are espousing this that she hold onto her disfunctional character **EDIT** were just kidding, right?

What a **EDIT**!

**EDIT**

You're assuming here that I did things with the OM that I never did with my H. For me, that's not the case. Also, my H really didn't want a play-by-play of every moment I spent with the OM. I was always willing to answer his questions, but he flat out said he didn't want to know all of the details. So, for us, this really was never an issue.

Looking at this from outofkilter's viewpoint, I hope what she is trying to do is to create long-lasting, sustainable, romantic love with her H. This is often not the goal in an A. For me, my A was all about the thrill and the excitement of something new and forbidden. Not that I did strange things like have a 3-way or anything, but just the fact that I was doing things reserved for marriage with someone I wasn't married to. I can see how, in some cases, this could go so far as to cause someone to do things they would never do under normal circumstances (such as a 3-way). Now that outofkilter has ended her A and wants to rebuild her M, she can clearly see that doing things of a sexual nature that she finds repulsive will not help to rebuild her marriage. Quite the opposite. Sure she could do them with the OM, because when she was with him, building a lasting, loving relationship wasn't the goal. The goal was to continue getting that fix or that high or having those EN's met that the OM was meeting.

That's what she needs to do. She needs to help her H understand that when she did those things with the OM, she wasn't trying to build a long-term, sustainable, romantic relationship. That's not what A's are about, but that is what a marriage should be about.

But on the other hand, many BS's are greatly offended when an WS brings affair sex acts into their marriage. That is a much more likely happenstance. However, she should NOT give into his destructive notions of sacrifice and do her best to create a romantic, passionate relationship that fosters a fantastic sex life.

The worst thing she could do is sacrifice her own enjoyment for the pleasure of her spouse. That does not help their marriage. So regardless of a how a BS "feels", the WS still should not engage in things that are desrtuctive to the marriage just to assuage his resentment.

Also, I seriously doubt any BS would "feel better" if his/her WS grudgingly engaged in affair sex acts because it only triggers feelings about the affair.

What you writhe here is simply not true!

I have never in this thread suggested anything of what you accuse me of. I am tired of these ridicules accusations. I notify your post to the moderators.

I'm not disagreeing. Once the WW has the affair, everything she does or doesn't do is treated with suspicion.

So both doing and not doing a particular act, in light of respectful requests for the act prior to the affair and knowledge of that act occurring in the will result in withdraws from the BH's love bank.

Either saying yes or saying no will make a potential withdraw for different reasons.

The other thing I've thought of is does Dr H say sacrifice is never good, or that it's seldom good.

After all, plan A is a plan that calls upon sacrifice for the one in the plan for a short period of time.

I think Dr H even acknowledges that plan A is a calculated sacrifice for the purpose of saving the marriage.

So sacrifice is not to be part of a healthy marriage, but sacrifice IS CALLED FOR to save an unhealthy marriage.

So one cannot say Dr H is totally against sacrifice. Instead, he's against sacrifice as the day to day MO for a healthy marriage.

Mel can certainly speak for herself, but I wanted to mention: we have segued into 'respectful requests.' The OP was referencing her BH making selfish demands and retreating into AOs when she would not comply. There is a difference. Their relationship has not been restored to the point where either of them can entertain respectful requests.

Having said that, I believe (your mileage may vary) that anyone presenting a 'respectful request' must also take the other side of the coin - that the request will be respectfully declined. That does not give them the right to resort to selfish demands and AOs. At that point both parties need to respectfully discuss a POJA on the item, or agree to table it if they are unable to come to a mutually agreed-upon solution.

No shouting. No AOs. No DJs.

We are done here.