the essence of this all is, IMO, that outofkilter should ask herself why she gets involved with men who ask her to do such things (threesomes, etc,,)
She needs to work on herself.
blessing

"men" why the plural, multiple affair?

And, the essence is not just why did she sleep around, rather how does she get her BH through this. She is past your "essence" of why cheat, cheating. She needs the essence of recovery.

yes men: her BH and her OM.
Her BH can't be that good if for year he is now asking her to do things she does no longer want to do even if she did them with OM.
Anyhow...all this is ludicrous since outofk is not posting any longer.
blessing

OOK:

There is nothing that unusual about your situation.

At least around here.

Your looking for a way back to a marriage that is better than the one that you have now. That may be bettter than you had even before your affair.

Two things are obvious. And understand that I was the one that cheated in my marriage.

You valued all the things that you BH gave you before, during and after your affair. That is why you stayed. The income, the house you have, the good father, and social standing. All these things are important to you, and you were unwilling to give them up. I have BTDT as well.

You did things with the OM that you refuse to do with your BH. It doesn't matter what they are, the simple act of refusal translates to the betrayed spouse that they are not as important as the affair partner. And this isn't just a male/female, WH/WW or BH/BW model, it cuts both ways, for both parties. I get that you completely gave up your morals in pursuit of your A. BTDT, destroyed my wife getting that T-shirt.

And really all you want is something that appears "normal" and you may never get that. And the reason is that maybe your husband is not capable of giving you that forgiveness and reconciling that "was you THEN, and not NOW". He doesn't have to. He has the "get out of marriage" free card

Keeping the A "alive" by forcing you to talk about it all the time is cruel and robs your love bank. (BW and I talk about it, when she feels the need, but it isn't constant, and it isn't in regards to a punititive manner...)

Men would like a wife/girlfriend that is a little more free, and a little more adventuresome. I mean, that is the dream of every beer commercial, right? And you WERE, with the OM.

Kinda hard to do that with your BH when he is kicking you all the time, isn't it?

So, if you have revealed everything, and he knows everything, then after a while YOU have to make some choices. One of those choices are that you do NOT have to live in this type of marriage any longer. You can choose to end the marriage, and accept the consequenses of that decision, which you more clearly see those consequences now.

You can stay put, and hope, and wish, that "this too shall pass", and that BH will finally come to acceptance, and your marriage will get better.

Two years have passed and option two certainly doesn't appear on the horizon. Many of the Betrayed on this forum may tell you that your timetable may be too quick for all the things that you have done to your BH. I don't know, if your BH was here, maybe we could better guage where HE IS, so that we might be able to help to determine WHAT the future may bring.

I would call the counseling center and set up an appointment for yourself to talk with them directly. They are the experts. It might cost you some $$$, but those $$$ will be significantly less than a divorce attorney, and they can help save your marriage, and get you on the right path, with realistic timeframes, and guideposts as to what to expect, and when.

As we tell betrayed folks here when they first come here, fixing a marriage ravaged by infidelity is difficult, but the Harleys have written the book on the ways to do it. You should do what it takes, for the period of time it takes, to fight for your marriage, and know at the end, that you did you what had to do to save the marriage. And then, no matter what, you hold your head high, and realize in spite of your earlier mistakes, you have done what needed to be done to fix it, until it couldn't be fixed.

LG

Atena, Outofkilter posted yesterday! She is still here.
Outofkilter...
I guess the analogy for your husband and your response could be "If I used to be a heroin addict, would you need to share a needle and a nickle bag with me to feel better about it?"
To me it sounds like your husband is stuck on anger and you are both struggling to understand his pain and deal with the new pain you are experiencing from he unbridled anger. Again I am sorry for both of you. Please stay with the posters with large numbers of posts (real large numbers). There are people here would layu down their own lives for you and your husband to recover from this and have the happy, fulfilling marriage you wish for now. It will take patience that will try your soul. But there is hope. Read the books by Dr. Harley. If you need them paid for and sent to you and your husband beg, borrow or steal to get them. Read them, read them again and re-read them frequently. They are your best option.
I virtually beg you to run to the library or book store and read Patricia Evans book on the Verbally Abusive Relationship. There are practical "come-back" comments that WILL help you respond to your husbands angry demands. This whole circumstance has to be turned (and I hate this phrase) into a learning opportunity for you both. You will have to take the lead as part of your responsibility. You can do it! PLEASE TRY! I know you wouldn't be here if you did not have the motivation to want to make things better. Please stay with the experts on this board even when they get tough with you. Anger, unbridled anger is the common outcome of an A.
Blessings
Hurting Turkey

I believe the essence of recovery is strict and unyielding adherence to personal integrity in all aspects of her life, including sexual fulfillment (SF).

OOK, I suggest you start by setting a boundary on how much you are willing to talk about the A, then enforce it.

You could say "I am willing to talk to you about this every Tuesday and Thursday night from 5 until 6 pm. If you bring it up any other time, I will leave the room. After one month, the subject will be permanently closed."

DrH does NOT advocate talking about the A for years and years. I'll try to find the link to the letter, but at some point he characterizes continually raising the A as manipulative.

Set a limit. Start small. You'll be amazed at how quickly you will get strong.

We are here. Ask questions. Sadly, the folks here have seen just about everything.

And note my post count. If anyone has way more posts than me disagrees with me, you should probably listen to them.

This is exactly right. Once the truth is out there, it should never be brought up again. Continually throwing the affair in her face is called "secondary gain" by psychologists:

Overcoming Resentment

In a recent MB radio show Dr. H recommends to talk about the A for at most 3 days in a row (he called it a marathon) after which never to talk about it again.
On these premises your WH has gone way overboard.
You just tell him you no longer want to talk about the A period. And that you expect him to respect you and seriously start working on the R of the M.
Anything short of that would then require a separation or a D.
You can no longer tollerate his behaviour.
blessing

I appreciate you saying this, but as we can see from this very thread, post count counts for absolutely nothing. Your post lines up exactly with MB concepts, whereas, the post you quote doesn't at all. His post count is in the thousands, btw.

I want to emphasize this. OOT, does this ring any bells? Because they are ringing so loudly I can hear them from right here at my kitchen counter!

Set a boundary. Seems you have gone above and beyond what DrH would have recommended already. Shut down the conversation on the A with a short "closure" session (I hate that word but can't come up with a better one).

Then guard that boundary with vigilance.

Begin to build your strength by saying NO. Lack of boundaries landed you in bed with OM doing things you find distasteful. Enforcing your boundary will begin to build your self respect back and start you on the recovery road.

You can do this.

OK, I wrote this earlier and see that others have posted here... but here is my 2 cents...

Disclaimer- no one had an affair in my marriage just an in house separation that my husband initiated. I don�t profess to truly understand the issue of infidelity.

Wow! I really just like to lurk and rare post but this thread is screaming out to me. I read here and there and very rarely post but I kept thinking about this last night and I figure it�s best if I write out my ideas or it will keep occupying space in my mind. I want to preface everything that this is my opinion not that I am offering any sound advice but rather my thoughts.

First and foremost, your husband demanding you perform the sex acts you did with the other man. This is not at all about that. He does not realize that though, I bet. This is about him feeling that you loved the other man more than him. That you still love the other man more than him perhaps even. He still feels that you love or at one time loved this man more than him. My translation on what he is saying is� �show me you love me as much as the other man if not more. You loved him so much you did this stuff for him but for me you must not love me as much because you are unwilling�. When you gasp in horror or recoil or get really upset at his demand of a 3 way- it confirms his suspicions in his mind. See, she would never even consider doing for me what she did for him. Perhaps it is faulty logic but I believe that is what is going on in his mind. Regardless, that is a really, really crappy way to feel. He has assigned the sex acts to proof that you loved him more. Why? Because sex is huge for a man, it means so much more than we women can ever understand. Same way a women would get more upset with her hubby �in love� with someone as opposed to having sex with someone he did not love. Does that make sense?

I think a really good solid back story on the events of the affair and esp. how it ended would be really helpful for people trying to guide you here. If you could fill in a lot of details�

So, another question I have for you is what actions are you taking to avoid love busters and fill up his emotional needs and more importantly what are you actively doing to show your commitment, dedication and remorse to him and that you really empathize and understand his angst. I am wondering if you feel that since you are done with the affair and back with your husband that things should go back to normal. I have read over and over. The cheating spouse feels that the betrayed spouse seems to mire in the past and seems to have trouble moving forward, it seems to frustrate the formerly wayward spouse. The betrayed spouse feels like the cheating spouse seems entitled to a free pass and really feels content to move forward not really realizing that the betrayed spouse is shattered. Let me state that again. The betrayed spouse is one thousand, one million, billion, trillion percent shattered. The are hollow and have taken an emotional �beat down� if you may say. They are extremely, extremely traumatized. You may feel extremely traumatized but whatever you feel, he feels TEN times worse, IMO.

Ok, I usually do not ask a question without providing so possible solutions. If I were you, IMO, I would do a few actions to show I am dedicated to him and I want to voluntarily show transparency and that I �get� how much he was hurt by your actions. As Dr. Phil says� you drove this car into the ditch you get it out� This is a time were you stand for the marriage and your husband even if it feels painfull you continue to find your inner strength and not feel sorry for yourself (WRONG, WRONG) but feel that you are going to let his words of hurt wash over you like �water on a duck's back�. You are going to look for the message behind the mean words. That message probably is I am hurt, I am scared you will do this again, I am not sure that you really love me, etc. And I think you have to treat him in some regards like a mother treats a rebelling son who screams out �I hate you�. You KNOW that your son does not hate you� you know that your son feels you have hurt him emotionally and he is lashing out. You would not let your son�s comments devastate you. YOU would realize this. Samething.
Why now you may ask, it�s been a year. Why is he still fixated on this, why know is he angrier than ever? Because before he was unsure that if he showed his anger towards you that you would not leave him �emotionally� again. He was on unstable ground, didn�t want to rock the boat. This was all subconscious of course. Not that he sees that you appear to be more committed to him. He can show you his anger. Quite honestly- much of it is justified. You did not just do this to him but your child to. You child lived in a home of turmoil�.
Opps. Going off topic. OK, things I personally would do�
1. I would take a lie detector test and make up a ton of questions. �Do I regret the affair� �Do I love my husband more than the OM�, etc. I would let your hubby know about a week before the test and ask him to look at your questions and add any adding any additional questions he had. IF he scoffs at the lie detector test, I would still take it. I would want to prove to him my sincerity and love
2. I would install a keylogging software on my computer- (ok, maybe in the near future after you are done posting on MB) and tell him it�s there and give him the access codes or explain how he can see the keylogger
3. If you do not have a GPS system in your car I would get a cheap cell phone with GPS and activate it so that your husband can see where you are at all times (b/c remember you have lied and lied and lied again- you are still considered untrustworthy, you have to prove yourself trustworthy at this point)
4. I would buy several books,- **EDIT** Love Busters, His needs, her needs, etc and actively read them and highlight important passages. I would let my husband see that I am trying to better myself, understand why you did the behaviors you did and figure out how to now allow yourself to be susceptible to an affair again.
5. I would keep a journal- expressing my thoughts and feelings on things but I would keep it in a spot so that he could read it if he wanted. Knowing that I would never write- hubby is such an @ss, etc. I would write, hubby hurt my feelings so badly today, etc., etc. He will spy on this and honestly it will give him some inside on you. [I personally did this one and am glad I did- I would write, hubby would secretly read, thinking I didn�t know but I knew, I could tell]
6. As for communication, I am a huge fan of letters. I think it is easier to stay on topic and get your message across and there is not the change of escalation. If you have not already done so, I would write him a letter of apology. DO NOT give justifications for what you did, how at one time you did love this OM- NO,NO, NO. NO pity party either, how you are hurting etc. This letter is an apology to him and stating you know you hurt him beyond hurt you betrayed him. Etc. etc. This letter is you owning up to all of the bad behaviors you did with no justrifications, buts, because, if only, etc.
7. I would ask for a letter from him if he wanted to write one and I would read it and respond in person or send a letter back. I am telling you- writing back and forth works so very well. Personally, if my hubby did not want to write me I would continue to write him about my remorse and regret and THANKFULLNESS that he gave us another chance.

**EDIT**

9. I would call Dr. Harley and try to get hubby to participate. If not I would still pursue just for me.
10. I would read up lot sna dlots of threads that the betrayed spouses are writing to really understand their pain and upset.

**EDIT**

OK, I am surprised no one has brought this up but I think your husband is triggering big time. Are you aware of this? Are you aware of his triggers? Do you understand triggers form PTSD? He can be fine and dandy and then all of a sudden a song can come on that reminded him of the day he found out and blam-o. He�s in hurtsville, you are stunned by his sudden change in behavior and have no clue what is going on. I think you have to recognize that what you have done is basically severe trama to his psychy- and he is permanently altered. I think he can drastically improve but it will always be there for him. I have read posters elsewhere who have stated that sometimes the pain can feel so fresh that it feels like just yesterday it happened- even though it was five years ago. Dr. Harley writes that cheating on a spouse is more painful that the death of a child or rapes or beatings. There is nothing worse to inflict pain. HE IS TRAUMATIZED, still from all of this. I liked the analogy another poster wrote that he is like a hurting dog in a corner- come close to it and the dog will bark and try to bite. Not out of anger but really out of pain. Women express sadness and hurt as � sadness and hurt. Men, OTOH, are not supposed to express those emotions and honestly often do not know how to express those emotions so hurt men express rage and anger. Repeat that- hurt men express rage and anger! Really analyze behind that anger is tons and tons of hurt. Should he deal with it better- h@ll yeah. He does not have the tools to do that though, not yet anyhow.

So how should you act and respond to his outbursts?

Well, that was a super long post. I will post more later

You gave her lots of good ideas. However I don't think doing a 3 way is a good idea.

It about as good a RA. RA's only create more pain and after they are done are usually found to not relieve any of the original pain from the original affair.

Is her BH wanting to get what the OM got to not be second to the OM? Or is this BH anger and the BH hiding a RA in his request from WW?

June, I don't think advising someone to participate in a 3-way is exactly in line with MB principles (or any principles really). A 3-way is adultery, since it is bringing another person into the marriage. How on earth could the solution to a problem involving infidelity be more infidelity?

If you're going to pass out advice that totally flies in the face of all MB principles, you may want to find another site to do it on.

Why in the world would you willingly carry a loaded gun into your marital bed???

True story: A couple (not H & me) decided to spice up their lovemaking by having a 3-way "one time." Well, the W decided that was pretty fun, so they did it again. Her H decided he'd had his fill of that particular activity and requested that they not do it again. W wasn't digging that idea, because she'd grown fond of OM. And the A was off and running.

Don't bring third parties into a marriage - never a good idea!
FWIW - ook has never indicated what sex act her H is seeking. She never said anything about a 3-way. I used that in an earlier post of mine as an example of a sex act that would be a threat to recovery.

Did you not see my disclaimer that this is only my opinion? I specifically said that if I was in this situation it is what I would do.
I think telling me to post elsewhere is hurtfull and offensive, IMO. Perhaps you could have rephrased that nicer or perhaps I am being super sensitive.
I knew I would catch flack for that one though...I choose to still include it as what I would do...


I am sorry, I admit, I do not know what a RA is... intrigued though

Revenge Affair

The BS becomes a WS

I am not trying to be hurtful. I am simply pointing out that this is a Marriage Builder's site and advice offered to new posters should follow MB principles. Adultery is not an MB principle, and since a 3-way involves married people having sex with someone they are not married to, that constitutes adultery.

I thought I read somewhere in her very early posts that outofkilter did in fact participate in 3-ways during her A and that this was what her H was asking for now.

Yep, here it is.

Yeah, that is what I thought if the dynamics do not change. A lot of backstory would so help. I also have thoughts on how to differently address his anger outbursts. Boundaries and such. You can train a person with you own actions and responses as to how they will treat you.

With his intense pain and hurt his is definitely a loose cannon. I would say stuff like... "while I see you are very upset and I want to talk to you I can not continue to do so while you are yelling at me...when you calm down I would be very happy to talk to you since I love you so much". Maybe worded better. Doing this in a very calm tone not showing any hurt or upset. Exit the room. Later approach the hubby, I would love to continue our discussion if you wish, etc. If he goes back to nasty, verbal abuse. Calmly state you will not particiapte in a conversation like this... etc. etc. It does work, it really does.

I know that I would tell my hubby... "Just like you would not like to be disprected in this mannor, I do not like it either:... walk away. Blew my mind when one time I started shooting out verbal sprew and he calmly threw that phrase back at me. It stunned me and shut me down immediately-lol! It totally reminded me I was out of line. At first I was angry he used my "phrase"-haha!


I also wanted to mention the concept (well how I see it) doing loving acts with no near term visable positive response. I believe it does work. I think Harley mentions when someones love bank is severely in the red. You will have to make quite a few deposits for a very long time before you see a return. I definitely believe that to be true. Someone here posted a great post on a different thread about "feeling like you are dropping buckets of dirt in a lake, useless, but then suddenly an island appears from all your hard work". I really liked that analogy.