SB, yes fewer WS seek help here because fewer WS seek help in general. That is the nature of the beast. What a sincere WS will find here is the help they need. They don't find people who will tell fogged out waywards what they want to hear or pretend like they aren't selfish. That is not helpful; it is not support.

The WS's here who are recovered value this place as a source of support and learning. And how does their perspective differ from yours? They are recovered, you are not.

A WS who is sincere about recovery could not be run off by wild horses. If a WS leaves it means they weren't really sincere in the first place.


Yet you didn't say that. Finally we see a slight demonstration of empathy for the victim in this horror show. That gives me some hope.

That "bonding moment" with her scuzzy WS and the OW would be even harder to overcome if she had to watch it up close and suffer the humiliation on international TV. The lovebuster would have probably been unsurmountable for most BS. In fact, what happened might well be the end of the marriage for the BS. I can't imagine overcoming the resentment from such a cruel and brazen act heaped upon her by 2 pigs.

I dont see how your post was helpful...

Yes, they are lost. They are self will run riot. BY CHOICE. They are victims of their own hand.

And I don't believe you brought up the point that Dr Harley doesn't call WS's selfish and entitled as a complaint. Its obvious to readers why you brought it up. You don't like it when board members state the obvious.

But, you know better what you mean so if you are agreeing that WS are selfish and entitled there is no problem in saying that waywards are - in truth - selfish and entitled. Then we have no issue. Because you can be assured that needs to be brought up early and often.

Odd, because if you read what Dr H RECOMMENDS with respect to the apologizing:


So it may not be required, but if you want to have the best possible outcome, it's certainly recommended. So there is little to gain by arguing that one does not need to apologize. If you only want bologna instead of steak and lobster, then you can stick to the idea that an apology is not necessary.

I think you are missing the parts where he says the WW is selfish. After all, the Taker by definition is selfish. So unless you are dismissing the very notion of the taker being in charge, then there is your indication of being selfish.

When the taker is in charge, one is being selfish. The WS ends the affair with resentment and with the taker still in charge if I understand what I'm reading in the link you've provided.

So apparently Dr H does say the WS is selfish. He just says it more politely. But that's what taker in charge translates to.

To add to that:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html


That sure sounds pretty selfish to me. So let's go back and look at Dr H's description of the WS right after the affair is over:


OK, without saying the words selfish, Dr H has called the WW in this example SELFISH.

Unless someone else reads the definition of taker different from what Dr H wrote?

Yep, thats selfish! And he uses that very word all the time! Even so, I can't imagine why that was even brought up from someone who AGREES that WS's are selfish.

What was the point in even bringing it up if you agree waywards are selfish, SB?

Ok reading that thread has totally depressed me. This place is supposed to be helping those that need it. I didn't like that post either which was specifically about ranting at 'waywards'. Oh well.

I'd not say that a non-apologetic recovery is bologna vs. steak & lobster. Dr. Harley is on record as stating that he's seen many fully-recovered marriages where the wayward wife never apologized, but very few fully-recovered marriages where the wayward husband never apologized.

If I had insisted on a full and public apology when my wife was still foggy, it would be likely I'd be talking visitation and child support rather than here typing while my lovely wife is taking a brief nap on the bed next to me.

Eventually, of course, she offered several apologies for her behavior. As I did for my thoughtlessness in helping creating the conditions in our marriage in which the affair could occur. An apology should happen somewhere in recovery.

But getting an apology out of a foggy wayward wife, according to Dr. Harley? "Well, that's a trick".

I am sickened and depressed at the cruelty shown to the wife of the Chilean miner by 2 waywards. Nothing here compares ro the cruelty and meanness of that act. Thankfully we are on a board helping those who need it and that doesn't mean whitewashing the crimes of waywards.

I know that poor woman...I just imagine what I went through with my WH and she had it on national tv and OW in her face...So much worse. We know all to well the devastation she is probably going through. It breaks my heart...

It is awful not on the same level but reminds me how brazen OW can be. I remember one night when H was drunk and I had his phone and OW rang and and I picked up and she carried on and asked to speak to him.

LOL...yes, OW are extremely brazen. This is part of what eventually blows up the A, it's a turn-off to many MM.

Maybe to me it's just the blatant actions that make her a totally fugly gutter queen.

The way she flaunted her status, her sin to the world makes me want to slap that silly fog smile off her face.

The way you behave can certainly influence how attractive you are perceived to be imho.

ITA...and it works both ways too...

I never asked my ex-wife for an apology, and true to form, she felt 100% justified in having her affair, getting her divorce, etc.

So it's now a requirement for me should my wife betray me. She has about a nanosecond to apologize because there is no way I personally would try to win another WW back to me.

I wish those who would well, but like Dr Harley, I too would not attempt to win a wayward wife back.

It would take an apologetic, immediately repentant WW for me to even consider letting her back in my life once I knew of the affair.

But that's just my personal opinion shaped by experience and the position stated publicly by Dr H.

It occurs to me that empathy for their victims and genuine remorse on the part of a WS are blocked by the WS's deseprate attemtp to hold onto even a shred of pride. Having done such a terrible thing, they KNOW they have thrown their honor away, but grab at any little thing to convince themselves that they are indeed honorable people.

HUMILIT is what many unrepentent wayward spouses are lacking...a total absence of pride.

So, I would suggest to a WS, "Lose the pride. Committing adultery is nothing about which you should be proud. Humble yourself before your victims."

Seriously, losing the attiude will only HELP your marriage...and YOU in the long run.

As for the miner, I hope that he is missing his wife so badly that looking at his skanky mistress is making him sick.

Not to mention sending a clear message to WH, OW and the entire viewing world of "Yes, I will tolerate your girlfriend." THAT is why the BW absolutely should have left the site and refused to be there when he came up - so she would not send that message, even inadvertently, to the two of them or to anyone else.

Nice dig, SB.

For future FYI, it is actually not "fascinating" when we post about disgusting wayward behavior in the media and we exhibit sympathy for the victim in the case, the BS. Those types of threads are not uncommon here.

Contrast the garden implement shrilling to international TV cameras that the BW only wanted him for his money...

to

a quiet, savagely injured woman withdrawing from an incomprehensible situation, saying only that she couldn't be there because "I'm a decent woman."

I wish I could give her a hug.

Wowzers! I really do hope you stick around, SB. The bad news is you're way foggy, but the good news is if you stay, post, and learn, the fog will dissipate.

In fact, I challenge you to stay for 6 months, then go back and read your early posts. Once you get out of the foggarbage, you too will be able to recognize even a whiff of it wafting around.

Bonding moment, schmonding schmoment. An unrepentant wayward will make anything a bonding moment. If the BW had been there, it would still have been a bonding moment for the wayward, because OW lurved him enough to be there even with the BW. Instead, the BW is very sensibly withdrawing from an untenable situation, and hopefully the A will implode on its own.

Waywards can turn cesspools into bonding moments. It proves nothing except that they're delusional.

All the best to you and your BH. I really do hope you stay long enough to earn your F.