It is NOT the same since you have NOT made the marriage commitment. There has been no "stand before God and make vows" kind of thing. You CAN kick his a$$ to the curb. Personally, I would never ignore such a huge red flag as cheating and go ahead and marry that person. If you do, don't come whining to us about how he cheats on you...when you know ahead of time and decide to ignore that, you deserve what you get. I know you aren't going to like what I'm saying, but we're telling you to prevent you from going through the heartache so many of us have. Most of us only WISH we'd gotten the warning signs before we married! You're already going through trust issues, it won't get better for tolerating it.

Vibressa: Gosh...well... I never said I was "shacked up"....we have been engaged, and planning a small marriage ceremony. I believe we had declared the intention to do all of which you say, but ran into a snag...as people do before and after marriage...I am actually glad to be learning now, so I don't end up divorced...again. My prior ex did NOT understand the MB concepts...I continue to learn and refine my own skill set moving forward.....the implication I somehow don't value the commitment I made to engage with this man and move toward marriage is short-sighted...You missed what I have said...I am caught in an "in between" time between engagement and marriage...commmitted like a marriage...and I also think you miss the real pain associated with this issue arising at this "in between" stage...I am working toward health and function, just like everyone here...I so apologize if my "in between" offends....I DO take offense that you question my position and apply some universal standard when, I believe, it is a bit different here....I am not trying to make a mockery of marriage, simply asking some experts here about next steps...be easy....

Kay: Noted...thank you...

Shacked up: To sleep together or live in sexual intimacy without being married. Source

You are not married.

Being engaged isn't married.

Having the intent is not married.

I am not saying you don't value the commitment to get engaged, I'm saying you don't understand the very real, fundamental difference between the commitment to GET married and the commitment that you ARE married.

You can't be 'committed LIKE a marriage'. There is no such thing. There is no substitute for marriage. Obviously, because your ex didn't even understand the relationship.

You're caught in between because you've tried to twist engagement into marriage and have landed yourself in a no-man's land.

First step to fixing the problem is identifying it.

The problem isn't your level of commitment, but rather your attempt to twist an institution temporary and tentative in nature and hammer the square peg of marriage into it's round shape.

I'm not OFFENDED by your status. I'm trying to identify your PROBLEM. If you take offence at that, consider why.

Marriage is like pregnancy. You're not a 'little bit pregnant'. You are or your aren't.

Similarly, you aren't committed LIKE you were married. Either you're married or you aren't.

Living together LIKE you were married. Attempting to reap the benefits of marriage without having to ACTUALLY make the commitment in front of your family, society and God MOCKS marriage. It's saying "I can get all the benefits without making any of the risks."

Now you are paying the price for your mockery.

I'm not out to beat you up, but help you.

I don't discount that you are in VERY real pain, and it hurts and it sucks. I've been cheated on before. BUT the cause of your pain is YOUR OWN INACTION. Your thinking you could have the best of both worlds, marriage without actual marriage.

FIX that mentality, and you won't run the risk of being burned this way again.

You AREN'T married to your fiancee. You are engaged to him. Until you see that difference, you won't be able to make meaningful progress.

But you are not married. I can FEEL like I am a car, but it does not mean it is true. Marriage is very different from dating and you are not married. Dating is a job interview for marriage and it the interview does not go well, the solution is to move onto the next candidate. A liar is not a good choice for a spouse.

I think the first step is accept that there is a huge difference between marriage and dating.

Perhaps I can chime in as a newly married father of 3. I married a woman that understood what she was getting into with the three kids that I have. You see, I put them first and foremost in my life when we were dating. She had to fit into my world since my world revolved around my kids. It�s the way I dated. I also set a very firm boundary with anyone I dated that I would not live with anyone before marriage.

So I went through several relationships. I dumped one woman because I couldn�t see her for more than 2 minutes without her starting to tell me how to dress, do my hair different, etc. She didn�t like me for me.

I went out with another woman that had lots of promise, but it was a lot of �work�.

I went out with a few others that were scared away by my custody schedule and my absence of free weekends.

Then I met my current wife. Things have simply clicked. There are no hours long conversations about how we need to make things work. There was no wandering eye on my part in maintaining communications with people that might lead to another relationship. There was no interest on her end with seeing anyone else.

She patiently waited until I was ready to introduce her to the children. I waited 6 months before doing so and she respected that.

She met them and it clicked. There has been no problems with going to stuff with the kids. There are no efforts to try to blend with an ex, an idea I find a little weird. An ex is an ex. In my case she�s a business partner I have to interact with for my children. There is no �blending� or getting along outside of the business like relationship where we�re amicable to each other and each other�s significant others for the sake of the children and nothing more.

Why do I share this with you?

Because I don�t get the sense you�re putting your children first. I get the sense that you want things to work so badly with this man that you�re overlooking a massive red flag and are thinking he�s going to �change� and �evolve.�

This is the greatest mistake romantically minded women make. Men don�t really change. They are what they are. Your current fianc� has just sent up a massive red flag. He strikes me as a man who will grow tired of �dealing with your kids� that he will find ways to check out of your relationship when you do marry. I also don�t buy a word of that story he shared with you.

I�m a man. I don�t just have people spend the night alone with me and not have things happen. Sorry, don�t buy it and I don�t know why you�re so na�ve as to buy it yourself.

If you guys were split and she was drunk and sleeping on your boat, then things happened. If he says otherwise he�s lying. Sorry, but that�s the blunt reality.

Which gets to another thing: living together is not commitment. Owning a boat together means nothing. Owning a house together means nothing. You�re not married so there is no commitment to spend the rest of your life with someone. If I was engaged and found myself attracted to another woman and fooling around with her, then I would end my engagement. Big red flag.

My point is that love, when it is real, is not hard. It doesn�t take hours long conversations about why you guys should be together. There is no massive amounts of thinking required.

The day I stood in front of my family and took my vows I felt no nerves. There was nothing but total peace inside. I didn�t feel nerves, second thoughts, or worries. I didn�t wonder if there was someone else she wanted or have things that �we need to work on.� I loved her for her and she loved me for me and accepted my children�s presence in my life and her role in theirs.

Don�t make him into something he�s not. He isn�t and is never going to be the father of your kids. That�s your ex. This man can be a step parent, which plays a very different role.

My entire point in this big message is that I get the impression that you so badly want to be with someone that you are seeking for reasons to make this work. I had the opposite philosophy when I was dating. Any sign of trouble of any kind which would bring drama to my kids and I was out.

It led me to a wonderful woman that I�m very happy with. There�s nothing I need to �work on� with her in terms of who she is. We work on balancing our time together and the kids and making sure we�re meeting each other�s EN�s per the MB concepts.

But if I had an incident with her the way you had with this man? See ya. There�s plenty of fish in the sea. I don�t need the drama in my life and more importantly, my kids don�t either.

That has been my approach to dating as well, and I think it is the right approach. You should not have to spend hours trying to make the relationship "work" - if you are, then something is wrong.

I was often accused by women I broke up with of being a "quitter", but the reality was that I knew they were not right for me, and I saw no need to try to force fit a relationship. In contrast, the woman I married last year did not require any work or fixing - we both just clicked from day one, and everything was effortless and drama-free. We both are similar in that we had no time or patience for staying in "wrong" dating relationships, but are also as commitment-type as they come once we say "I do".

Anyone who is trying to rationalize progressing a dating relationship into marriage, after one partner has cheated, is really setting themselves up for a huge disappointment and pain later on. That is not just a red flag, that is an indication of what is to come. As others have said, most of us would have been thankful to have had that kind of a red flag BEFORE we got married, so you are lucky in a way. But to continue this relationship, you'd have to be a masochist. As helpthelostdads said, there are plenty of fish in the sea, who won't cheat, lie, or need to be "selfish"...

AGG

This is the EXACT same philosophy my father had after his second divorce when I was 13. He still hasn't found that girl. In fact, I never met any of his girlfriends until about 5 years ago.

It created a stable, loving environment for me to grow in after the turmoil of my childhood. It created some peace in my turbulent life. I appreciate that gift that he gave me more than any other - the gift of his love in prioritizing me and my brothers first. He did not put himself and his need for a relationship first and then introduce us to woman after woman or shack up with a new 'step-mommy' to try out for us to get used to only to have it not work out and throw our lives into upheaval again.

Is it a bad thing he hasn't found the right woman yet? I doubt he'd say so. He live a VERY happy life pursuing work he loves, fulfilling life-long musical goals now that all the kids are out of the house. Every time I speak to him he is overflowing with his joy for life. Because he is happy, in himself. I'm sure he'd like to find the right woman - who wouldn't? But he leads a very good life right now.

Bottomline: You�re not dating for you. You�re dating for you and your kids. Don�t be so focused on your own needs that you neglect or overlook serious problems with the way this man interacts with your children. My kids and my wife get along well and she leaves the discipline to me. I am conscious of when the kids step out of line with her and will intercede if necessary. I view it as my responsibility and it protects her from the kids growing up with an attitude to someday say, �You�re not my mom. I don�t have to listen to you.�

I had to look for someone who would be a good example and a mentor to the kids and who was open minded enough that if she and I have kids of our own that she�ll recognize that our children together are related by blood to my children from my previous marriage. I would run from anyone that gave me the impression that the old kids would become nuisances to deal with since the �real� children, who didn�t go back and forth between homes, lived with us and were in an intact family.

I had a very bad vibe from women who felt it was their role to be authoritative step moms. My wife knows she has a role to play but also respect that the kids have their bio mom. She sees her role as an aunt or a mentor.

She runs ideas by me and asks my opinion regarding things with my kids.

Don�t get me wrong. She�s made some mistakes in learning to deal with them. That�s expected. But the point I�m trying to make is that you should force it and it should just be something that is there or it isn�t.

Same goes for you and him. It should not be forced. You shouldn�t have an attitude that �he�ll change.� Or even worse, �If I love him enough and he loves me, he�ll change for me.�

No, he won�t. He is who he is. And from what you�ve said, there are BIG red flags.

Unless there�s massive info you�re not sharing that would change our outlook, I predict you�ll be back here in a few years discussing your wayward husband and asking for our help. He�s put up a MASSIVE red flag you should seriously ponder and weight against the drama you�re looking at bringing into your kids lives.

I feel like we are going around and around on semantic distinctions...I of course know the difference between "engaged" and married...We have a temporal gap between point A and point B...people plan ceremonies...the discovery happened at that time...no more no less. I am not going to own it that my commitment is less because this even happened before 01/01...Okay, so now we have a problem and have to deal...and yes, of course, it's a red flag.

Before and since, my absolute devotion to my children comes first...I am not an insecure and ridiculous woman who revolves in a fantastical world where she needs a man to complete her. I came back from a devasting loss with a very destructive ex and made it all work due to my competency and strategy. I am not stupid enough to let yet another negative situation screw my world or that of my children...Generally speaking, my fiancee has had same view as many of you seem to support..sort of like an uncle, big brother..friend to the family...He shows his support with affirmation, acts of service, etc...he understood from he beginning I am a Mom first, and my life is one of children and their raising...I work two jobs on their behalf, and never miss one game, one parent teacher conference, one class party...I support them alone, well, and their life is filled with expressions of love from me, him, my family, and friends...they are protected from drama, and they are protected from a destructive Dad...

I am simply asking a few questions to clarify thoughts because I want to make sure I am not overly pessimistic and unforgiving either...I don't want drama...I DO want to provide an atmosphere of unconditonal regard for those whom deserve to be there and provide same...work with mistakes, coach, mentor, continue to learn and grow and support each other as we meet the conditions of life...with full protection of all of us a paramount priority...Just trying to find my balance...

I am in no hurry to marry...I don't have to do a damn thing...I may choose to watch and wait, and live my life...I am happy with or without...

And, i think it is lovely that some of you don't have to work at anything in your relationships...I frankly believe every relationship requires care...with some, easier than others...I dont find it odd that issues arise and need to be managed...Again, semantics...care or work...you pick...I am truly thrilled you have found someone at a stage of development that matches your own, that your relationship skills are so evolved you have reached a place of comfort unmatched...I think I, along with all kinds of people out there...are trying to get there...

Many times the delivery of feedback on this site comes across as so arrogant, hard...judgmental, harsh...not sure why it's that way.

Anyway, your points are well taken, they are under advisement, and I'll sit tight and see what happens...thanks for everything

It's not a question of semantics. "Caring" for a relationship (which we all do, I don't think anyone implied that a relationship should be care-free) is worlds apart from accommodating someone who cheats on you. Even if I go along with your concept that engaged is the same as married, I would tell you the same thing - if you were married to someone who has cheated on you, and you have no kids together, I'd tell you to leave.

Recovering from adultery is not a normal part of "caring" or "working" on a marriage.

AGG

As per your original question: punt.

Damage control will prolong your pain.

And next time, say I do before you decide to share your life with someone.

LOL! Actually, HTLDs was pretty easy on you and he was absolutely spot on. Time spent "fixing DramaBoy" is time you are not spending on your children. Dr. Laura recommends that divorced parents NOT get involved in relationships until the children are out of the house for just this reason.

Your feelings of anger towards the posters who are not telling you what you what to hear is a sign that you ALREADY KNOW what we are telling you--you are just not able to face those facts quite yet, for whatever reason. After all, if it wasn't true on some level, why would you be so angry that you are lashing out at those trying to help you? That's a pretty strong reaction and it's indicative of some inner conflict.

No one here has a dog in your fight. They don't know you and whatever you do is your business alone. Right? You don't have to defend your actions to anyone here. Why is that so important? Who are you really trying to convince?

Take a deep breath. Take another look at what posters here are saying without letting your defense mechanisms get in the way. Is it really the end of the world to put this relationship on hold?

And then take that time to examine why you are attracted to and stay with men who don't treat you very well.

Blueline, the difference between being married and dating is not semantics. Dating is a test drive; an interview for marriage. When you test drive a car, you don't fix the engine if it blows up; you give the car back and find a better car. It would be pure folly to buy a car with a bad engine when there are other cars available for the same price with excellent working engines that would suit you better.

NOW, if you buy the car and the engine screws up, it would make perfect sense to get the engine fixed. But it makes no sense to buy a car with engine problems because common sense dictates you will be in for a very rocky future with that car.

Lower your defenses for a second and take a look at the big picture advice.

1. Your children don�t need the drama.
2. You are spending lots of time trying to make Mr. Right Now work.
3. It is a massive red flag for him to be flirting with other women while he�s supposedly with you.
4. There�s plenty of fish in the sea. Don�t settle for one with wandering eyes.
5. Once again, your kids don�t need the drama. Put them first.

No one here is putting you down. But an objective look at your post reveals a hopeless romantic inclination.

If it clicks, it clicks. If it works, it works. No need to spend hours talking yourself or him into staying. THAT is the point.

Now if he was flirting with these other women while with you, then you�re just asking to be a BW that will return to this forum asking for advice about your WH. If he strays now, that you�re engaged, he will stray later.

The things you said about relationships is wrong. When it is right it doesn�t feel like work. When it�s wrong, you spend hours talking about how to fix things.

If I was in a relationship where my fianc� felt the need to read all my emails and see my phone records then I�d bail. If the lack of trust is that bad right off the bat, then there is a BIG problem.

When it works, it just is. My wife has access to all my stuff. Not because I wrote it down for her so she could check on me from time to time, but because I simply don�t clear out the web browser history and I have nothing to hide. The fact that you have to have this access before you�re married so you can check up on him is a very bad sign.

Personally, as the single man, I would bail on you. I wouldn�t want to be with someone that needed to check up on me and was constantly on me. If the lack of trust is that bad right now, then there is no future. In your shoes, I�d end it because there�s enough women in the world that I don�t need to settle for being with someone I feel a need to check up on.

What we�re all trying to tell you is that you don�t need to settle. You�re settling and there�s no need for it when there�s plenty of good men out there that you won�t need the feel to check on.

Are you living together? Think of the dynamics at play there. In his shoes, if I lived with you, I�d appease whatever demands you made of me in order to re-establish the peace OR to buy time to bail out. See, when you live together you�re stuck. It�s easier to ignore problems than to deal with them in order to keep the peace. It would be awfully weird to give all my passwords and phone access to someone I didn�t live with. That�s weird. And it is a really bad sign to have to do that when I wasn�t married to the person I was living with.

Why must you settle? Does he have some great quality as a man that other men don�t have that his cheating and wandering eye is ok to overlook?

Just out of curiosity:

How did your first marriage end? Did your husband stray? Is he a good father? What makes him a bad father if he�s not a good father?

If he has an active eHarmony account, it is because he activated while on "break" or he had one all along. Even though you agreed to not see other people, he either:
1) Saw the relationship ending and was starting to get other options
2) Never really agreed to the agreement to not see other people

On the one hand you could say why wouldn't he start looking into other options? Taking "a break" may just be a sort of way of phasing out of the relationship. If someone wanted to take a break from me that tells me something is not working in the relationship. If it takes that much effort, maybe it isn't the right person.

Also he sounds pretty Independent Behavior prone...doesn't want to go to your kids football games because he doesn't mesh with the Ex...what is he going to do when he becomes their stepdad? Never go to anything? Or is he just not really into all that family stuff and he has a good excuse to avoid it?

You asked why he was seeing women in the past who were "not good mom's"? Because he is getting his ENs met and doesn't really care about her kids.

It's not semantics and we're not arrogant and we do work on our relationships.
HE CHEATED ON YOU! I don't know what part of that you didn't get but you don't want to heed anything we say so why are you here?

You are right "helpthelostdads"...we have all had way to much drama....I am actually not a hopeless romantic...too pessimisstic I think...which is what i want to guard against...

You asked about first marriage...he wanted to "go a different direction"...whatever that means...We had a slow disconnect...I believe I was a really good wife and Mom...very accomplished prior, but we agreed I'd stay at home with the kids when they came along...I was thrilled and happy...He came from rich...sort of well known family...he was considered the "weak pup" (isn't that gross? I mean..really)...never really having achieved a high level of professional success in their eyes (which, btw, very few could)... I think he felt really unsupported, surrounded by people who always did better (including me...which became a sore point)...and he couldn't get there...It was so strange...but I mean, we had everything we needed (I came from humble origins and was happy to have a roof and cool, healthy little kids...I am pretty easy)...He turned sort of disparaging towards me...condescending, sometimes cruel...I didn't buy into it, but it was wearing...

But I think it did something to him though...he always felt undefined, directionless, unable to make decisions, find a path...the rest of us were good...happy, healthy...I felt he was growing depressed, morose...Now I am pretty straightforward...if something is wrong, let's fix it...He seemed to resent that as some type of instrusion...We weren't doing well, he had put the squash on a lot of things we had agreed to going into the marriage...and I began to feel like he was taking us all down with the ship...and I wasn't going...I have a strong enuf personality to know I probably didn't deliver that feedback well and in a nurturing way...although I said I clearly wasn't able to give him what he needed, so why didn't we go to counseling? He refused...and continued to sink...He stopped our family (no more kids....), told me to go back to work...we argued a lot about that because I felt it important to be home...I think, looking back, he wanted me working so he'd feel better when he left...like I was set up and wouldn't be struggling. Anyway...we started disagreeing more...his decisions were erratic and didn't make sense, and they are affecting everyone...Others have suggested maybe he was seeing someone...that never showed itself really...the other suggestion, from more than one person, was that he might be gay...which in some ways makes sense because he just seemed so dark and angst ridden, but never could quite disclose what...and what was happening for him...I know it sounds odd...so many people have said their "gaydar" went up when around him...He was cultured, not really a "guys guy", but smart, interesting, good humor....but I did hear that more than once...

I remember the day I got divorce papers...i was taking the kiddos to school, and before I closed the door he said he loved me...The process server knocked on the door when I returned...At the time of the divorce, I learned about a lot of back door shenanigans going on, especially with finances...He played under the radar with a lot of things, shifting funds, accounts didn't know about...I am not sure if I didn't know him really, or he became something sort of sinister...He wasn't really involved with the kids during the marriage...perhaps a reflection of his own childhood with nannies, not Mom...I don't know...

Looking back at your comments, and reflecting on my own relationships in the past...even with my own father...I can't really say any of those important relationships nurtured ME...they were all basically cheats and liars...All my girlfriends are married to cheats and liars, or they are cheats and liars....I mean, does anyone NOT cheat or lie? lol I feel like I am desensitized to it...

Because of that history, I believe I generally cast doubt, and tend to be suspicious and hard and independent anyway. I myself am trying to be less aloof, more engaged, intimte, soft...nurturing...I want to make sure I am not overcompensating, or undercompensating...My fiancee has his own wounds, as we all do...I sense he is trying to overcome in an honest way...I support that for anyone...and you are right, at the same time I don't have to be victimized by it...

So, I am going to take a break from all this...I am going to work, and takeimmense joy in my kids...keep thinking it thru...Perhaps I am meant to NOT be married...is there a forum for that lol? Abandoned by father, abandoned by husband...maybe I'll just change my screen name to: coolkickinitwithmykidsandjustdandy....Would like to think I'd get that...what I have wanted...really, the ONLY thing I never really was able to finesse...and it bugs the crap out of me. I am a smart,educated, funny, loving person....not sure why this aspect hasn't worked out...but perhaps it will one day...no rush...

Good for you, Blueline! I am so happy for you and your family that you are able to take a step back and reconsider.

About this. . .


If I could share--I went through a time when I felt that many of my friends were using me--that when they needed something, they were fine with coming to me, but they were never there for me when I needed a lift or a hand. It made me wonder why everyone was such a jerk.

Then, gradually, it occurred to me that, like serotonin slots into a serotonin receptor in a cell, maybe I was the one who was "linking" up with users and ignoring my emotionally healthier friends.

My friends tended to be undereducated, perpetual life drama, unambitious women. They had abusive husbands and money problems and just for a little extra flair, were alcoholic or druggies themselves.

I was always there with helpful little words, trying to help them kick the booze or leave their husbands or get a better job. Of course none of it "took". It was all just a big waste of time--but it did keep me from focusing on my OWN problems.

So what I'm trying to say here is sometimes the world is not full of jerks--just the area around us that we have chosen to populate with jerks.

All the best, BL!

BL,

Seriously, I wish you nothing but the best. Being alone and becoming comfortable with being alone is one of the greatest gifts you can give yourself. Ironically, that�s when you�re most attractive and are apt to make the wisest choice on who to be with.

Your standards, especially with kids in the equation, should be VERY high. The slightest red flag should not be ignored.

Such a high standard may make you �picky�, but in the end it is you and your kids who benefit. The kids don�t need the drama and you don�t need it. But love will hit you when you least expect it and most likely when you�re not looking.

Taking a break from dating was one of the best decisions I ever made. Don�t get me wrong, there were some very quiet and lonely nights, but I got use to it and realized that I wanted to be with someone who would be an equal and a partner and would accept me with flaws and all and would accept my kids as well. I met such a wonderful woman once I started dating again, but it wasn�t after going through several people. There was always a compromise. Someone didn�t like how I dressed. Someone thought my humor was too goofy. One thought I wasn�t chivalrous enough.

In all those cases, I thought, �I can do better� or I learned form my mistakes.

It led me to my current wife who likes me for me and whose humor is just like mine and who isn�t seeking to change me in any way. I only wish the same for you. Don�t settle. Life is short, but not so short that you must settle for the first thing that comes along.

Look in the right places for faithful men. What is his philosophy on marriage? Does he have similar principles to those championed on MB?

These are good things to discuss with people you date. Perhaps not on the first date, but eventually.