Hi Constant

Glad you found me, just wanted to be on the safe side...Hope Just Learning and Jessitaylor picks up too. I don't know what I would do without this place, it has kept me so grounded and focused on my boundaries.



Yes I think your right. That hurts, partly because he would say bad stuff about me, but what does that say about him, he would lie to get a woman into bed? Oh well.



I have a confession to make, my Plan B letter was not quite MB text book. I gave him a 'text book ' MB Plan B letter a couple of weeks ago when he stayed out the night, and I have repeated the conditions of reconciliation when we were 'together'. I will post the Plan B letter, but go easy on the 2x4, as I am a bit fragile at the mo. The points of reconciliation I made clear on numerous occasions no contact with OW, honest commitment to MB principles and no IB. I willpost the Plan B letter I gave him on Monday.



My H didn't come into the house with the tiler, he just knew I was at home at sent me a text to say - are you in?!! Anyway, I know what the text was all about now, it was him testing the waters to see if I had calmed down.



Thanks Constant, I do hope so too, so much. Going to phone my Dad, as I have gone dark on my family aswell this week, sometimes hearing their voices brings on the tears.

General Plan B update:

This morning woke up, and spoke to my sister on the phone and afterwards my first set of tears came, I think it was a mixture of relief I was out of a toxic situation and disappointment.

I dragged myself out of the house and went for a run along the seafront as it was sunny. When I got back to the house, my H truck was parked outside.

I went in the house, and ignored him, and walked straight upto my bedroom. He did a sarcastic laugh, then said morning, I ignored him. A few minutes later the conversation went like this:

Me - Have you come to get the rest of your stuff?

DH - No Harmony, I haven't. What do I do? I haven't got anywhere to go.

Me - You can go to OW house. You are free to do what you choose.

DH - Your overreacting, I only dropped round there...

Me - Leave the house! Leave the house! (firm - calm voice)

Then I went and got in the shower, the whole time I didn't even look at him.

When I got out of the shower, he had moved his stuff from the hall into the office and had gone.

OK, need to get my head together on what to do next. I have got solicitors appt next week. I was thinking get IM to contact him to tell him to move his stuff out, or I can just take straight to the storage unit and post a key to his mothers.

I knew he would not go without a fight. I knew that he went dark on me this week, expecting me to back down and have him back. The text yesterday was to test the waters to see if I had calmed down...

OK, please go easy on me, I know I should have changed the locks but I need legal advice first.

Also, I have an appt with SH on Tuesday, do you think this is still worthwhile?

Sounds like you did fine. yeah he is waiting for you to be controllable.

You can change the locks, move his stuff out and give IMs the news where he can find his stuff. Moving it back to his office was real cute. Maybe OW will let him have his "Base of operations" over there, yeah ,right.

Sounds like he is quite an operator, actor, and probably feels totally justified in just about anything he does, but not wasting time on his diagnosis, let whatever counselor he finds, if he ever does, do that.

The point is this is what I think attracts women to him, his confidance and good looks, along with a sob story. Such a poor boy, and all he needs is someone to love him, and thats all he really is willing to offer too.

You have been patient waiting for him to mature past that point, but he allways has been able to dodge it somehow, using his talents and attributes as a talker to stay the same. What kind of friends does he have? Are they single guys? I bet they are.

Heres the crux of what I am saying. He doesn't have to change to maintain what he believes is important in his life, which is his relatioships and what they do for him. His presence is all he gives besides the impression he is seriuos about you, or anyone elses emotional needs. He is comfortable with that, and has lots of reasons why he can be that way, like a scared little boy.

He can allways find some comfort with relationships that don't require much sacrifice or go outside of his plans, and when that relationship falls thru, he is talented enough to find another one. So he keeps people at arms length and at the same time they feel sorry for this poor hurt guy. Very attractive to many women, for a while.

How much of that crap he is selling does he really believe? Who sold him that? Has it become his identity now? If so, then he must think he is unique and deserving of a pass in what it takes to have real relationships based on truth, honesty and sharing because he is an exception.

The awesome truth is there is no exception that replaces what those things do for us in relationships to unite us and both to grow together as we do ourselves. A Marriage is a place to continue to grow with someone, not a comfortable place of complacency where we are all done with supporting each other and making each other feel special. Marrige is not a task to fufill but a journey with someone else where the people are different but the same rules of love and relationship apply to bring out a unique marriage.

Two unique people + Love, Respect, and MB principles = Unique marraige.


SH is the best one to give you advice not only to help your marriage but to make sure you stay healthy and get stronger personally.

I have hope for everyone but I feel like H will stay in his comfort zone for a long time unless something forces him out of it. We are all hoping Plan B will do it but he might be seriuosly stuck mentally and emotionally and unable to get it right. He has work to do to sort himself out also. You have to set a timeline for yourself. So you can beleive and know you are in control of your future, for how long you will wait.

It will be up to him to prove what he wants. You take care of you.

Hello Constant



Thank you Constant, its wasn't easy, starting to lose hope, and I am afraid for him. I think he is losing it, he is out of control and its horrible to watch. The more I am in control of myself, making good decisions, living by my boundaries, the more I see him floundering around struiggling. He looked a mess this morning and I have to say, I am really concerned about him, it has taken the wind out of me. I am still dark, but am concerned.



Crystal ball again, yes they are mainly single. I am good friends with them, but they have not had successful relationships. He does have married friends, but not as many.



I only have hope that Plan B will force him out of it. I guess I have to decide how long Plan B is for, at some point I will need to move forward with my life. Today is the day after seeing him this morning, that I have lost a lot of hope. I am frightened for him. Early this week he went dark on me expecting me to call him, then he tried the sympathy vote this morning, the next stage is going to be revenge, maybe?

I am taking care of myself, eating well, ect.. I went to my sisters and her husbands tonight for dinner, and back home at 9pm. It is good that I dont feel I have to go out and prove a point by partying ect....

One point, when I went to my sisters, they both bought up the subject, wanted to know what was going on with hubbie. I gave them a brief overview, and that was ok, then my BIL started to say well you know you need to protect you finances and have you thought about this, thought about that? I said yes I have those areas covered, and getting good advice. I said its more emotional support I need, my BIL then went onto say its only because people care and I said I know that. Then he carried on by saying, don't be so defensive Harmony, don't be so serious, don't be this don't be that (he wanted to pass his opinion on what I should be doing). My boundaries started to kick in (respect for someone elses wishes), and I said I appreciate your concern and that others care, but the only support I really need right now is emotional support and for people to just phone and invite me out to do things is all I need. I have solicitors and my own ideas about financial matters. He didn't like it at all, but I do feel that if it gets to a D, that the worst thing that can happen is families start putting their opinions in about financial matters, ect..It is between the couple. It would be the best thing if it didn't get to that.

H wanted to try and make it clear today, that nothing was going on between him and OW, yeah right. However, I wander, what is all his recent bahviour about? I don't believe he wants to be with the OW, otherwise he wouldn't be coming back here. I fear that his behaviour has been so poor, he is full of justification by my A, I only hope that Plan B can make him realise this. If I am honest I remember being in that position too, in denial and full of self justification, who wants to face their horrendous choices? Is the way he has cruelly treated me, the only way he knew how to deal with my A? Or is it because he is a bad person....

It was only when I discovered MB that I knew how to deal with the situation, as underneath it all, I knew I truly loved my H. I still do. I hope he comes back to me, in the way that can make this M work.

I hope he is OK.

Every post I read today is a precise description of my WH. It is truly opening my eyes as to what he really is.I think Harmonie's and my WH are brothers. Anyways....Thank you ConstantP, you did an incredible analysis of this type of wayward. Incredibly accurate. ANd yes my WH's friends are either single or in very loose M.
blessing

Yes, My WH is also very good looking and that is the ticket to why they can always find another woman's shoulder to cry to...

blessing

Harmony, the only thing I would worry about is if he never sees the light of the day. the fact that he is a mess is what we wish for him because only if he hits bottom will be wake up.
These kind of guys have to feel the pain all the way to come to their senses because they are so cut out from their feelings and from the feelings of others, their sense of entitlement is beyond what we can imagine.
Do not worry about him, he should be on his way to come to his senses or to be lost for a good part of his life.
blessing

Thank you Antena - I know you are right. Its just hard to cut someone off who you love, as you know. I have read you thread and I admire you, you are very strong and couragous.

I still thinks, he believes I am not serious and the more I reinforce it, the lower he will go.

Anyone know when Plan B is having the desired effect? I feel surprisingly ok, although I am worried that this is due to WH attempt to keep contacting me and the fact that he doesn't really want to leave. Is the way H is reacting a good sign? Does it mean he is starting to feel the pain of not having me?

I would only consider reconciliation based on a set of terms that I have discussed with H..

I miss him, can you tell? Not the monster he has been the last 18 months

Night all xx

i know this is off the subject but i am new and would like to know how you post a thread on here

TCP, Go to the main forum page. Forum list on the top of this page. Choose the appropiate forum area as in . Surviving an affair or marrige builders 101, then click on it.

Then when you see the list of topics, on the top of the page on the left hand side find, new topic and click on it.

The rest is simple.

The hardest part you will probably go through, and I hope you don't have to, is if and when H refuses to recognize after a long plan B that HE is the one with blinders on. He might just keep on insisting its all your fault and he was great while he waits for YOU to come to your senses. He wants it to be like it was.

I feel that women are catylsts to bring about change to a lot of men who really want to stay the same. Men who need to be in control for security inside are not allways wrong mind you, but there needs to be a balance. Going out to the opera or trying new things together should be welcomed even though a guy might be closed minded in the past about opera. Moving to haiti to help the earthquake victims when you have no resources is a wonderful compassionate gesture but probably not something most average guys would jump at.

This is part of relationships where we keep each other grounded through communication while appreciating what is behind the suggested change instead of disrespectful dismissal of someones ideas or dreams. Works both ways too.

It seems mainly a female thing that they see the potential in a man and then expect them to live up to it. That can be a good thing but what about who they really are instead? Most of us fall in love and on average the "in love" state of our chemistry stays for about two years. If we don't work on the relationship and discover all of each others weaknesses and strengths, along with what we plan to do to protect each other and build each other up, the original chemistry can wear off and we end up disapointed. We can blame them, but really we let ourselves down through unrealistic expectations. The significant other is still loveable, we have just never really loved who they were. Can we be happy with our mates even though they are not perfect? We thought,(felt), so at one time, but we start in on changing them.

This isn't a statement trying to say "just stay and wait and no matter what they do...blah blah" Its just an explanation of how many get married with the best intentions but do not take the next step when they realize much of what they hoped for was based on assumtion and sometimes wishful thinking. Good positive thoughts maybe but not clear honest communication that must be maintained even as we realize them, in the moment, new to us. Most want it to stay they way it was and/or protect what they had, when something even more preciuos can come from facing change together.

As we get older ENs will change, values will be changed or defined more clearly, and we will physically change also. We will hopefully look back and laugh at ourselfves and be thankful for those who cared about us enough to put up with us in our fear and insecurity as we matured. Men more than women will fight the forces that make them grow up and face the unknown future when it pertains to them changing how they look at things it seems to me. I think its fear of the unknown, and the feeling of security when thier wife loves them that keeps them from changing. She loved me once like that, she said I was perfect and supported me and I don't want that to change. I felt perfect.

I have been trying all my life to depend just on Gods love and I know he knows I am not perfect. He loves me anyway but I also have attempted to be acceptable and prove my love for others and thereby they will love me back. Its an egotistical and unfair thing to try to be anybodys everything. They need to experience Gods love through His consequences more than they need our education about it. Can you love them anyway? Sure but there are ways you love a child and you expect them to be just what they are because they act like one. The love experienced in marriage is one of equal importance just as God does not hold a man as more important than a woman. Read around the site, there are a number of discussions about men having just as many emotions as women. Those emotions need his guidance too.

H needs to submit his mind and heart to something other than his feelings and untill he does he will struggle with stability and maturity. Much of the bible is taken out of context and misrepresented but the words are Gods mind toward us. His heart is that he takes the time to show us what love is because he Himself is love. You can use whatever form of learning there is out there to rise above the trappings of our emotions but in all the things I have looked into nothing has spoke more to my heart than how he died for me, as I must die to myself, in order to change who I am where it really counts. I go there kicking and screaming all the way, stubbornly wanting to do it all myself and arguing with truth because I am afraid of losing control untill I finally give up and agree I must have faith and agree with God.

Now that I have said that I also say that the world is set up to lead us away from the self realization of our weakness in our humanity. We want to be important, special, almost untouchable and we believe this farce easily when people look up to us. We forget, if we ever realized it that love is a gift and we think its from people, that love is sex, adulation, and that we deserve it. Its a gift when we are shown that is not true, and its an action based on the givers capacity to love the unlovely and it originates from outside our emotions. Love is not a feeling. Feelings follow actions or you are out of control of yourself and selfcentered. Because people are all built to be that way, and need to love themselves to be healthy, they also need to learn what it is so they can love themselves without useing others. So the source where they can find the discipline of actions and know they are loving? The authority outside themselves, They must serve love to produce it in thier lives, and they don't get credit for creating it either. Us humans don't have it in us naturally to give without expecting something in return, and we are allways balancing and comparing and judging the fairness of it. Whats in it for me? says the taker part of us. How can I love my mate today? says the giver. Its real, its human, and its responsible as people who should be loving others as we are loved by God to expect fair treatment as we give it to them.


We are not supposed to let ourselves be mistreated because God lives in us and is also expressed through us. He knows our frame, and what we can endure, and we are not as strong as Him. We were never supposed to rob others from the consequences of thier poor choices either. He will deal with them.

So what the point is that the most important relationship anyone can have will be a relationship with truth and light and that it will reflect in thier relationships with people.

If your H continues to hide in the darkness there are plenty of places he can hide, and he seems like he is liking feeling sorry for himself and being a playboy. In the end his figleaf does not cover him from God seeing who he is and the consequences will still be given to him. Separation from maturity and relationship. For his own good, and to protect yourself, don't go back unless he breaks from his selfish ways. I don't want you to suffer this emotional setup either. You are just beginning to learn to love yourself, and that its not just what you feel either. Untill he is ready to submit to learning he will spin in circles. You though have opened your mind and are going forward.

Please post what you asked him to do if he EVER wants to be with you again. If it isn't clear we will help you draft a follow up letter. It might be a while till he smartens up, if ever, you want him to be thinking about what he needs to do in detail during the dark plan B. If he isn't willing to work for you, you don't need him anyways. Let him stay in the playpen and you get on with your life and learning.

He is missing not having you yes. But how did he treat you when he did? His missing you is what we call part of the withdrawl of having his cake and eating it too. In your case I would say he is missing using you and owning you, not loving and caring for you. Big difference also.

I can only hope he will break down and seek counsel for himself and your marriage as quikly as possible.

Morning all,

Still feeling strong about not maintaining contact, although his desired effect on me yesterday has worked a little.

The 'I don't have anywhere to go ' line has had its impact. I do feel some guilt, and pain for him, ofcourse I know that was its purpose. I don't believe for one minute that he wants to be with the OW more than what it was before (one night stand/occasional drink), I believe it was about revenge, punishment and that because I didn't care about him when I had an A, why should he care about me? This is all about him learning that he cannot punish me anymore.

Need to carry on with Plan B, and get IM to let him know that the rest of his stuff is packed, waiting outside and he needs to come and get it. I will make sure I am out of the house.

The great thing about Plan B, is that you don't have to know a single thing about what THEY are upto. What you don't know, can't hurt you. Thank goodness.

Hi Guys

The first Plan B letter that I have to my H on the 2nd October, which he read but completely disregarded in summary said:

* How my only regret in life would be the affair and would never forgive myself for the hurt and pain I caused him
* The OM didn't mean anything to me, and that he took advantage of my vulnerabilities and I let him
* That I avoided conflict by communicating my needs to my H and hid in OM affair
* That I would always despise the OM for causing me to lose the love of my life
* That I loved my H more than anyone
* That his disrespect, contact with OW and lack of commitment to rebuild the marriage is causing me stress and unhappiness
* That until he can commit to rebuilding the marriage, end contact with OW and stop acting disrepectfully that I would like him to leave our home
* That I do not want any further contact with him so I can recover alone
* That either we honor our vows and be married out we are appart and that punishment is not part of the equation and only honest effort is part of the equation
* I love him very much and did not want it to come to this, but I need to look after myself

The second letter I gave my H on 12 October, I left it with his belongings and he did not take it with him. It said:

Hi

I have packed the rest of your stuff for you. I have seen your truck round at OW (no contact?!) and I am not prepared for you to come and go in our house any longer whilst you are seeing OW.

I have tried to make things work and you have done nothing. You continue to lie, cheat and disrespect me, I no longer recognise the person you have turned into.

I no longer wish to have any contact with you, I will pack the rest of your stuff up for you to collect the weekend.

Harmony.

OK I know what you are all going to say and I think a follow up letter is a good idea maybe. The 1st letter he tore up, and the 2nd letter he did not take with him.

Thanks all,

If you two are still living together, you aren't going into Plan B.

can YOU move?

Your WH really doesn't want Plan B and he has broken you. You need to gather all of your strength and do this the right way.

So the only communication he wants is make-up sex and talking to you about his work, life, and other problems?

He has a photographic memory or doesn't need to keep your letters and thats because...could it be what you think and feel doesn't matter?

Come-on Harmony, that last letter did not leave him any instructions to repair your marrige relationship but he thinks so little of it anyway he just left it like someone might leave a little kids picture they drew. Sorry, I put those up and make a big deal out of them for the kids as most of us do.

Ok make a list of what YOU want to happen before you get back together with him or see him again. You don't have kids, and he is still one himself. Give him the respect of what he won't give you, detailed communication, and don't accept anything less but full compliance or never see him again. It really is that simple, not easy but simple. Stick to a plan to get your life together and the heck with those who use you.

Run the list by us, then when your ready you can get 10 copies and posterize a few. Cover then with large plastic lexan and post them outside your house like with kids at playgrounds. If he ever wanders back it can remind him of the rules he needs to follow to be with you, then he can put his fingers in his ears and yell "NAH NAH NAH I can't hear you" as he runs off and finds someone he doesn't have to work so hard to get attention from.

Your H is treating you like a child and blaming you for it. You can put a stop to it. We are behind you, stand up to this treatment.

Waiting till tuesday to find out legally how to get him out of the house? change the locks or whatever? Start looking for some personal protection also before he does something that will require the police to step in.

It would be Ideal if you could change the locks, give him a boot and he would honor that. I wouldn't count on it though and enough ppl willing to stand with you in your personal life might save you both from dealing with the courts and police.

Time to face the possibility that he might not change for quite a few years if ever and/or you will be dealing with an unruly child for quite a while. Maybe someday he will see that you were the one that got away and you gave him a chance and maybe he won't.

The thing you must do for yourself is ask and expect love,(which he doesn't seem to know what that is), and respect, (your thoughts and feelings matter don't they?)

Its your life, and you get the credit and blame for how it turns out, reguardless of how you got where you are. Play the hand thats dealt you now and take the guidance here and from people you know and show they love you. Its the only way.

Lets get him out of your house and away from your presence until he learns how to love you. If he escalates to the point of legal action then call in the authoritys, it on him if he can't show you the simple respect of separation, your not his slave.

Hello Constant


Yes I know I need to face this, not sure how, one day at a time. Praying for a miracle. I want him and love him, and I only wants what is best for him. Maybe that is to let him go and be with someone who is happy for him to live his independant lifestyle with everything being all about him, OR him think, learn, grow, and be the best person he can with value inside with me.

I miss him tonight, but in a manageable way. Still strong and focused, I hope this continues. It is now 1 week since I made any contact with him, well its a milestone!!

I am not holding much hope for him. Can anyone give me any hope? I said a little prayer last night, and again this morning.

Maybe he is better off without me.

If my H ever decides to come back to me cap in hand, here is the back together list:

1. Complete honesty about hopes, fears, dreams, and whereabouts
2. A phone call to SH to initiate a MB coaching session
3. Honesty about what happended with OW
4. No contact letters to OW
5. Individual counselling for continuous cruel treatment (not sure about this one?)
6. Stop IB
7. Remorse for behaviour over past 7 months

Thanks all,
Harmony

While you have been remorseful, there is no guarantee that he will be remorseful.

Remember, that with MB, remorse isn't an absolute necessity.

It may be reached, but consider it a bonus, and not a requirement.

Hi there HHH

Yes I see what you mean, I will take that one off the list.

I want him home, I really do, I am missing him tonight. Just a low moment, withdrawal maybe.