H, if you are reading this, get your butt off your wife's thread and come on here & start your own!

Sunny, looking good, so far. Be very cautious. Can you talk to OW's H to discuss the convo you had with his wife and make sure he's in the loop with what's been going on? Important.

I am definitely being very cautious and looking for full willingness to earn my trust.

I think that is a big reason for transparency: even if the affair partners have the intent to totally stop the relationship they have proven that they are more feelings oriented than integrity driven. Therefore, in a week or 2 or whatever into withdrawal they may go back into feelings-mode and could just start up right again.

I'm not fool enough to believe OW. I know she is just afraid of further exposure.

Oh boy, I would expose her to the moon. She is afraid of it..? Great that's where you strike, where her weakness is.
YOu have very good chances to end this for good!
blessing

Well, I am hoping that their promises of it being ended yesterday were truthful. I hope and pray so not just for my sake but for the sake of 5 innocent children most importantly! Actually, it is for their sakes as well even if they do not realize it.

I have a plan in place where I will know if they are in contact. Again, because I know it is possibly when there is withdrawal to give into that temptation be it for "closure" or whatever what. Too easy to start something right back up even if the intent of the moment is to end it.

Sunny, I am amazed at the NERVE of this skanky, trashy OW to call you and lambast you for exposing her. She acts like she is the victim instead of you and your kids. That is amazing!

Dr Harley has stated that you will know when a wayward husband is serious is when he shows up with hat in hand and is apologetic. I don't get the sense that your H is at that point. Rather he sounds angry at your exposure, which means he is still in protect-affair mode.

I hesitate to give to much advice herein as he MAY be reading. I wish you'd have found something during your searches so we could trust that maybe NOW he isn't reading here but alas...

These halls are full of false recoveries and one characteristic often encompasses them all....HOPE.

It's good to have hope but you've also got to be realistic...figure out your boundaries and stick to them. Generally, the false recoveries start out with the BS so eager to save things that they buy into the wayward spouses lies, false promises or bargains.

Don't do that...

Figure out what your boundaries are and then try to get HIM to subscribe to them (make them HIS idea)...

If it's HIS idea...it becomes HIS obligation.

You give him suggestions...off your list but tell him if he wants to move back in HE has to come up with a plan.

You SUGGEST what such plan shall entail AT A MINIMUM...

Things like:

1. No contact letter
2. Commitment to work a marital recovery plan
3. Seeking another job without travel
4. Complete transparency (to all phones, emails, credit card bills and receipts, passwords, etc)
5. A lie detector test to verify that the affair is over AND whether there are more secret affairs in his past (not because you want to punish him...but because you can't recover if he's lying about his past). He did it once...there MAY BE more as there were certainly opportunities.

Here is a link to one of my favorite threads about boundaries titled "Boundaries vs. Manipulation/Control an Open Discussion". Read it.

Boundaries vs. Manipulation/control

Mr. Wondering

Remember neither has any motivation to tell you the truth on this matter. Beware taking your husband back too soon.


Here are the basic boundaries, from Surviving An Affair. If he won't agree to these, don't take him back. Seriously.

1. No contact with the other woman for the rest of his life.
2. Extraordinary Precautions to prevent recidivism with this or any other "other woman". Usually includes complete transparency in all areas of his life, blocking all ex-girlfriends from social networking sites (possibly removing himself from all social networking if it was involved in his affair), and anything else you deem necessary to eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible.
3. Commitment to a program of marital recovery together. I strongly recommend the Harley's home study course.

In your case, I'd also put in one more caveat.
* No more overnight business trips without your enthusiastic agreement or your presence with him.

TMI alert: It's possible to build enthusiastic agreement via a nightly check-in together at a designated time, with videoconferencing and some intimate time together on the webcam for 2 hours a night or so. Your call as to your comfort level with this solution; it's works well for my wife and I!


No, you don't, and you shouldn't. Trust is his to rebuild, and the only way he can do it is a long time of his actions and words being perfectly consistent. This will typically take about two years after his withdrawal from the other woman has ended, if you follow Dr. Harley's recommended program.



Quoted For Truth. I don't like the fact that there's a double standard for men and women in recovery, but statistics don't lie here: men by and large tend to acknowledge the affair is their fault (most of 600 men surveyed), while very few women do the same about their own affairs (not a single one surveyed of 600 women believed the affair was their fault). Dr. Harley has also observed many recovered marriages in which the woman never apologized for her affair, but very few marriages recovered in which the man did not apologize for his affair. Based on these observations, I believe your husband needs to own this affair and apologize to you in order for you to recover together. I would be reluctant to take him back until such an apology is forthcoming.

Thanks for all your sound advice! I am trying to keep today for myself rather than focusing on the situation, but I agree with all the points made here. Some wonderful suggestions and thoughts.

Rest assured, I am committed to not walking back into this relationship without the right mindset and actions.

Never hesitate to take a few days away from your thread. I had to, repeatedly, in order to digest the avalanche of material shoved my way. And in many cases, when I received a very judgmental response, I had to weigh it for a couple of days to decide whether to agree with it or not, or adapt the concept to my needs.

Leaving for a few days often resulted in responses from people saying I was wimping out or that I couldn't handle the truth. Not so... it's just all of this information is so new, and the emotions so raw, that sometimes you need to stop and catch your balance on the tightrope of emotions so that you can keep moving forward.

Best of luck.

Agreed, Door! Now I'm gonna go get my son and watch a movie! :-)

Sunny, after I did massive exposure like you did I went to Plan B. The A died that day and there was NC.

However it still took my H 6 weeks to come home...no one here could understand why, if the A was over, he wasn't coming home. I believe there were a number of reasons: humiliation from exposure; he was afraid of recovery; selfish reasons. Face it, it was NICE for him to live out of the house for awhile and not to have to deal with recovery.

He was never truly considering leaving me (although this is not what he told the OW) so this wasn't an issue either. I don't think it's that uncommon for WHs to stay away after this.

Good Point, Married. Six weeks probably seemed like an awfully long time when you were going through but compared to the years of investment in a marriage, a drop in the bucket, right?

I did talk to H tonight for awhile. He called and we made an appt to see the FT tomorrow evening. It isn't so much about marriage counseling as it is about discussing my list of must-haves for recovery and what he would like to see happen as well. (H is willing to do MC but I feel we need more than that: we need a good program like MB to restore love.)

H did ask about the time frame for coming home. I didn't want to say a specific time frame and he understood that. He seemed concerned that I was trying to get him to be gone a certain # of days so for some legal reason and that I was just playing along (about reconciliation) until that time frame was up. ???

Anyway, I said basically that I to feel secure about some things before he were to come home and I didn't know what that time frame would be - it depends.

I will say, this is the first time in a very long time that we've talked as human beings about some of the things that have happened. I felt like we were finally getting to some openness and honestly. SO...that was good.

I think we may be on the road to the road to recovery. I know it will take a good plan though, even with transparency and all that.

I also plan on hitting the bugging issue with the counselor and him tomorrow. It isn't right. He justified it because I had snooped, but I was trying to save my marriage. What I did wasn't nearly as invasive as what he did and he did it without "just cause".

Hi,SunnyD, just wanted to chime in with a few observations.

One is that people often betray their own intent by portraying it as someone else's. For example, a thief might be very focused on whether or not someone else was trying to steal from him because theft is very much on his mind. I think your husband is accusing you of the issues that are paramount in HIS mind.

So I see here that your husband is worried about a legal issue having to do with time spent away from the marital home, plus he seems very anxious to get back into the home again without showing much remorse for what he did. Not to mention that was an awful quick turn around.

I suspect (and I totally own up to being somewhat cynical) that after he stomped out, he and OW got together and decided to do some damage control once he realized you weren't going to back down (do you generally? Back down when he gets ornery?)

She spoke to you on the phone to try and make you believe she didn't want your husband. That she had given up. But most OWs are furious when they lose "their" man. Why wasn't she? Maybe because she hasn't actually lost him, but has just gone into stealth mode--to get something in the future I suspect.

I would ask myself what financial or custody benefit might accrue to your husband from:

"proving" he didn't abandon the family (his big hurry to get back into the house without remorse)

"showing" that the affair was over so it had nothing to do with your marital problems (OW TOLD you this and we know how trustworthy SHE is, right?)

I know you probably don't want to believe any of this and I could be totally off the mark. But I think your husband stomped off thinking that it would scare you into submission, then regrouped and decided on a more CALCULATED plan of action--one that will end up with a divorce that benefits him and OW. Does any of this line up with what you know of his personality?

I think it's very important that you, as we say here, set the bar very high for his readmission into the marriage. Do not let your hopes set you up for a false recovery.

Did he admit this? The reason he did it was to facilitate his affair; you did it to prevent his affair.

I have a bad feeling about this, Sunny. His sudden "niceness" makes be believe he and the OW have regrouped. I am hopeful the OWH's does what he had planned to flush any of this out.

Nano,

You make some good points. Even if they turn out to not be true in terms of what H and OW schemed up, they are valid concerns to consider.

Alls I can say (due to me still being afraid H is reading this - and that's OK) is, I have my contacts with the OW family. They honestly did not believe OW to be in the mindset of leaving her H at all. Of course I am not blind enough to believe what all she had to say.

I think it might help here to explain that I am not in the "I'm so hurt I'll take him back at any cost" mindset. I am waaaaay past that. Even the FT agreed that she has seen people in that mindset and that is not me. At this point, if he wants to be with OW - or any other woman - or not even be in a relationship but just not be with me either - I am fully ready to let him go. In ways, I already have. I do not want a man that cannot meet my needs or will not meet my needs, esp. when I am so willing to meet his. I am not willing to settle for less than what I deserve in a relationship. If that means he walks, so be it.

The bar is high!

Melody,

He did admit to their being equipment in the home, yes.

Don't get me wrong - he is not suddenly being "all nice". It isn't at all that he has done a total turn around. I'm just seeing flashes of niceness that I have not seen in an awfully long time....

If H and OW have regrouped, at this point - she can have him. I mean that. I don't mean that to sound like some "woman scorned" statement. I just mean if that is the case, I am not going to fight for this marriage anymore. I'm at that point.

As for OWH - yeah - I am sure he has his own plan in place.

They MAY HAVE re-grouped...

But that often entails a tearful goodbye and a promise that one-day...after the youngest child reaches 18 that he or she will recontact the other and THEN be together.

This is hard to overcome...but it is VERY COMMON.

It's the SOMEDAY we will be together promise.

These situations are not unrecoverable.

The Wayward goes through withdrawal just like any other wayward spouse and hopefully comes to see how stupid the affair was and how much damage it brought upon the family and they THEN discard any notion of ever continuing the affair.

We don't know if he made that kind of promise. You don't/won't know for some time if he ever made that kind of promise to OW. Sometimes it comes out two or three years into recovery...sometime never. But it is common and not a detriment to recovery UNLESS they continue contact. NO CONTACT is a must...after that is achieved anything is possible.

Mr. Wondering

Good for you, SunnyD--you sound like you have both feet planted firmly on the ground!

I don't want you to give up hope for a possible recovery for your marriage. There are BSs here whose spouses did absolutely horrible things during their affair and the marriage recovered. We all want yours to recover as well.

But you have two dependent children. If you are not independently wealthy, seeing a lawyer might be a very good next step. Tell him about this whole "time spent away from home, etc" that your WH is so concerned about and get some idea as to what might be the MOTIVATION behind it.

You may also want to start documenting the fact that he bugged your house, the "May God have Mercy on your Soul" statement (it's what the judge says to the condemned man in every cheesy western I've ever seen), all this stuff may help you in court in the future, if you have to go that route.

And do some exterminating of those bugs!

Marriage Counseling is a waste at this point. We were going to MC while the A was going on and what a waste of time, money and emotional energy.

I suggest you cancel that and insist on counseling with Steve Harley (the number and info is at the top of this page under Counseling Center. It's phone counseling and if you really want the best shot at recovering this, SH is the way to go).

You might also get Jennifer Harley Chalmers. If you express no preference, it's a toss-up. Barring any other deciding factors, I'd say if a wayward husband is involved, go with Steve, and if a wayward wife is involved, Jennifer is a good choice.

Given that a wayward husband is involved here, I agree with going with Steve if you can get him These people KNOW how to rebuild a marriage after an affair. Why go with someone else when you can go with the pro?