yeah I agree with this, we can only hope in time and with work he will feel remorse for his actions. The first issue is getting on board the recovery train.

The individual counselling is a good idea but here we are sort of holding his hand. This is what I mean by this...

He must stop treating you with cruelty as a condition of coming back. How he goes about dealing with it is not important, thats his problem. A problem so ingrained he doesn't even see it or recognize it when he does it.

You must define these things to him, what they are, and then he must see them and be willing to work on them, yes, but how he conquers them is his personal battle. If he needs counseling to stop it then so be it, but they must stop reguardless.

You must say ouch when he does it, then he must stop the behavior, if he wants to figure out why he did it is not as important as stopping it and shouldn't be a condition of being with you, just his behavior.

Your feelings are important Harmony. feelings of insecurity even if unfounded are often dissmissed by others as being silly instaed of looked into and discussed with openess and honesty. Maybe someone is insecure for some buried reason that needs to be investigated and dispelled, and then maybe there is a real reason like extreme IB and callousness toward us coupled by dangerous relationships with members of the opposite sex.

The point is the feelings are there for a reason, to stuff them down and minimize thier importance because they are not yours and you have more important things to do is selfish in a relationship. There might not allways be time to talk about them when you first notice them, but you can allways schedule a time later and show you care.

We are talking about feelings when you are married to someone and emotions should reflect what we know to be true. If the truth is that we know our mate cares about what we feel...,pain, fear, insecurity, anger, resentment, bitterness, joy, hope, happiness, ..then we can tackle the issue with thier objectivity confident we are loved.

Emotions are real and the driving force that makes everything happen. We do nothing without that connection.

Of course there is hope harmony, You just be strong and stand for what is really important and valueable and you will have it manifested in your life. If H sees how it is what should be important to him too, and he grabs this chance at growth, he can come with you.

I Pray too that he will see it also. Its his choice.

I bought a subscription to MB radio archives so I am listening to a number of shows.
What I hear more and more consistently from Dr. Harley is the importance that the WH comes back hat in hand especially after multiple A's but actually even after only one.
In his experience Dr. H has seen that if the WH is not 100% repentant there is an extremely high chance that he will cheat again. I can testify for that as my WH was in no way repentant (he was actually blaming me and defending OW after his first A) and there you go...soon after (not even 3 years after) he was in a second A that gave the final blow to our M.
Dr. H said that for a WW is not necessary to come back to the M repentant (in fact the example given in SAA with Sue shows that she came back to the M after OM left her and she was not repentant at all towards Jon)but he can't say the same for a WH.
This is repeated over and over again to the many BW that call in or email. In many cases Dr. H advices the BW to divorce the WH when the WH is a serial cheater and acts in a cruel, verbally (or physical) abusive way. Basically when the WH continues to attribute the reason why he had an A to the BW.
He tells the BW that she will definately be better off divorcing the WH unless she wants to go thru a life of misery.
Food for thought.
Blessing

Thanks Antena

I felt like I was missing H when I woke up this morning and when I read this it gave me the kick I needed. In all honesty, I am actually sleeping better since he has gone, and it is nice to be able to walk around the house without being treated like a leper. I feel better in some ways than I have for weeks. I think most of the tears are for the M I wanted.

I must admit though, when I read your post it I cried, it really hit a nerve. A big moment of realisation as to how my H has treated me. He has serially cheated on me, justified it the whole time, verbally abused me and allowed me to endure moments of total humiliation.

Not really sure what this means, but Plan B was the best thing I ever could have done.

I guess this has also given me the push to get the locks changed and put the rest of his stuff outside.

I love him and miss the 'old him' but not enough to take him back without 100% remorse. Otherwise I would just be on a road to hell again.

Hi Harmony,

just dropping by for some encouragement. You are doing great. I'm sure he chooses to play the game and not come to get his stuff for days if not weeks. He doesn't have any power left except this to influence you to get and keep your attention on him and his doings. I'm also sure that when he sees that his tricks won't work on you, he will try something else. It's like when a child has lost the access to his favourite toy, he will then do anything it takes to get it back. Fortunately, you can ensure your Plan B by thinking it through of what he might be capable of and anticipating it. Changing locks, blocking his phone, e-mails is quite necessary.

I would take his stuff outside and put them in the place where they are out of your sight, so you won't wonder every time you see them why he doesn't pick up his stuff and when he's going to, or what you should do when they are getting wet or dirty. This is extra stress for you and completely unnecessary, because he is completely on his own now, the way he chose a long time ago, as a matter of fact.

Just my thoughts.

Yes, it is! I remember my WH would not even want me next to him. He would move if I sat close or touched him. In bed he would sleep at the far end, and if his legs touched mine by mistake he would pull away as if I were a snake.
FOr the longest time I would ask myself:" What did I do for this man to be so repulsed by me?"
THen on MB I found out that most WS do what he did...however he seemed to be a little more cruel and entitled than most.
Then of course the A did explain a lot of his behavior...however he must have had something going on on a personal level to be so cruel to me.
I guess Dr. H had a point when he said that I would do just fine without my WH in my life. He added that however he believes WH will not do very well down the line has he has compromized his moral believes and is on a downward spiral.
Who knows what will happen to him...he seems to be doing well, if he went thru some major upheaval I would hear it from my son.
I know it is hard right now for you and as time goes by it gets a little better. But really, would you hang on to a drowning person?
This is what we are doing. I do miss who my WH was (and he was that a long long time ago) but it has been too long now since he turned into someone I do not recognize.
I just know that seeing him and interacting with him would hurt me beyond belief. He is truly toxic to my life. The way he treated me for the past 2 years and many years prior is just not acceptable. I have to work on regaining self respect for me as I am so beaten up emotionally.....
blessing

Ya, know, I felt funny when I wrote this and compared it to myself and what I would feel was appropiate. To me total repentance and remorse would be neesesary for me to want to change. For my late wife...it was allways a slow process.


In Harmonys case, and how extreme he seems to have become, I felt it even more nessesary that he feel actual remorse, but because we want him to act differently and trust MB like a child maybe that is the way to make him see his mistakes.

My guts says kick his [censored], but if MB says that too. good.

It comes in waves but the more I am away from him the more I am appalled at the way he has treated me. How could someone do this to someone else?

I know there are different stages of grief but for the first time ever, I feel acceptance is starting to happen. I believe that he is doing exactly what I did for a time and that is running away from his actions, everyone including my family and friends have seen another side to him with his mask off. He will never come back, he may try to play more games with me, but he will never come back. The reason being tha. His image is very impotant ro him as mr all round nice guy, and it is easier for him to walk away than deal with the truth.

I can't believe I have allowed myself to get this far down the road with him. I have lost total confidence in myself in regards to men and their intentions.

I feel really really angry with myself.

Oh yes, they reveal themselves for what they are and you know they bad when across the board everybody say they are. It broke my mom's heart to see the real face of my WH. SHe said he was like a son to her but now she knows not who he has become.


You do not know that for sure. But the point is not if he cames back...it is HOW he comes back. You do not want him back the way he is now.
They are all about image, yes. But they lost face by now so the only way to keep face (in their messed up mind) is to continue doing what they are doing and show the world that they mean it.
And that is where their downfall really is. It is in continuing to spiral down because they do not have the guts to say they made a mistake...it also takes too much time to become good.
blessing

Yes my mother was the same, she has 3 son in laws, and got on well with all of them, but her secret favourite was my H. She won't even discuss it with me now, as she is so upset that I have stayed living with him whilst he has treated me this way. Yes she knows that I was wrong to have an A, but I should not be punished this way. I think she is appalled.

My H said just before I asked him to leave, how could I ever face your M again? The thing is my family would never treat my H disrespectfully if I bought him into a family situation, they would always be courteous and polite, as they believe it is between the couple. Whereas I have been to his family's house and his mother has just blatantly ignored me.

I maybe psycho analysing too much, but I believe that my H secretly despises all women, mainly because of his mother. He often use to say about my female friends, I don't like her or she annoys me ect....I do think he has an issue with women. He in some ways was the 2nd husband to his mother, she would talk to him about relationship problems with her H and want him at her constant beck and call. I never took it personally that she didn't like me, she didn;t like anyone who took her sons attention away from her. Even when my H was at school, she really did not like his BF. Even when we got M, his BF said you have your work cut out with that family.

the thing is, you can't choose your parents but you can separate off from the emotionally and decide for yourself whats right and wrong. Unfortunately my H has not yet done that.

At some point he won't be able to keep running away from himself. He had one moment of this when he collapsed on his bed in tears saying that he didnt like himself and that he used people and upset people all the time.

Unfortunately now, I don't know whether to believe any of the garble that comes out of his mouth.

I don't know for definite if he will not come back remorseful, but as you say Antena, that would having to look in the mirror and face himself and his faults, and that (I know I had to do it) is oneof the hardest things of all.

Harmony

my mom says the same thing...she is agast that I let my WH treat me the way he did for such a long time.
I think this bring up a good point for us Harmony and that is the question "why do we allow men to treat us this way?"
Why do we put up with so much abuse and have so little self love and preservation instict?
I read Eckhart Tolle the spiritual teacher who was also on Oprah a while ago. He said that for every abuser there must be a person willing to be abused.
Our WHs are spiritually dead and unsconscious but we must on a similar path if we let them abuse us....
NOw is different because we had the courage to break free, so we are moving on and evolving spiritually, but for the longest time, I too, was spiritually dead...
blessing

Harmony,
I'm glad I have found you I was concerned about you but I can see you are doing the best you can with what you are dealing with.....
You are feeling all the normal emotions that go with this kind of decision....
You will weigh things out from every angle trying to make sense of everything, this is very normal and all part of the healthy recovery process.....
I'm glad you are sleeping and feeling free in your own home.
Stick with the plan you have in place and try to keep yourself busy....
Your husband has to do a lot of self reflection in order to change this will not happen overnite, don't expect anything from him.....let him think and work things out for himself.....he is a grown man that understands life, he might act like a child but my guess is he knows exactly what his choices are here......
You want a husband that is different than the one you wanted otherwise it will never work......I think forcing him to finally look inside himself is the only way.......I think we all can get to a better place and understand what and how we get to the decisions we get to, he is no different.....
Stay dark and sit back and wait and if the wait is to long, move on knowing that you have your self respect and that you have come out of this a better person and a person who now knows how to treat someone else and how you want to be treated, you have learned this and it's a good thing.....
I think you are a strong woman with a great deal of love and compassion .........be poud of yourself..........

You are so right Antena. It does feel kind of good to break free but on the other hand, it feels hard to let go of someone you love.

I understand why I put up with his poor treatment for so long.

1. It took me totally by surprise, I never imagined for the life of me he could treat me that way. There were signs though right from the beginning. I remember his BF GF came upto me, and said, Harmony you seem like a really nice girl and I like him, but he can be really nasty when he wants to be, don't get involved with him. Also, when my H told me about his ex GF and that for the end of their rship was on anti depressants and he told me he use to sleep with women and go home to her. That when she threw out all of his stuff out of the house that she lay on the road begging him to come back and he told her she was pathetic and to pick herself off the floor. Nice. So i suppose that is what always unnerved me about him,.

2. Because of my A. I thought I deserved to be treated that way to earn forgiveness and I thought that would be the way to get him back.

You live and learn. The way I see it is because we are good people and would never intentionally go out of our way to hurt others, we just don't imagine those closest to us can behave that way.

Thanks Antena.

He would be lucky if he saw the light of that day. Too many do not and stay the way they are, often becoming addicted to booze or other substances.
blessing

Yeah my H is a heavy drinker, it anaethetises him from everything that is going on. Especially at the weekends, he drinks through them. When I met him he was a heavy drug and alchohol user, and gave it all up after a couple of months of being together. Although in his defence, he has always been very anti me using drugs, ciggaretes and alchohol. Not that I would use drugs anyway, I have when I was a lot younger.

Geez Harmony, I thought he was anti-drug because he had not done a lot of them, and he saw though the BullChit they are along with knowing they are part of the road to spiritual and physical death. But now I am seeing another side. He is OK with himself doing them when he sees fit, but don't you ever do them.. To him he is always in control, you never are.


You are probably coming into a stage a lot of people who have lived in crazy and/or abusive situations do when the relationship ends. Good. Now that you are recovering yourself you will make better choices for yourself as you know you will be alright.

I liked Jessies post too, a lot of common sense and real support.

No constant, he was a heavy cocaine user when I met him, he was a dealer too. I didn't find this out until a few weeks in but I did not like this part at all, I only went out with him a few times before he gave it all up. I think he was looking for a way out of it all and saw me as it. True to his word though he was quite anti afterwards.

I have re written my conditions for reconciliation:

1. Get on board fully with MB. That includes counseling with SH.

2. He cannot move back in until all of my conditions are met. That is including a NC letter to OW

3. STD testing

4. Complete transparency

5. Repentent attitude in both words and actions

Still feeling ok, feel a lot calmer, and sleeping much better. I was so worried that I would crumble without him, and I am fine. I do get waves of sadness, I just let them come and go. I keep saying to myself see Harmony you can still breathe and go about life.

Came home from work tonight, the evenings are getting dark as the English winter is settling in. I spoke to my mum, dad and sister then did some interior design home work for my new course with a glass of wine. Peaceful - lovely.

I really credit this place for making me so grounded to deal with this. I can live my life but I can't do anything about my m. I do hope H is well and will say a prayer for him tonight.

I was warned in more or less the same way by his sister. She told me days before our M that the way my WH broke up with ex girlfriend was awful. She said that if she were not his sister and he would ask her to marry him, she would not because he cannot be trusted. I asked her why and basically she said that he was not faithful to his XGF.
XGF also called me soon after our M (20years ago) to tell me that WH just broke up with every one when he broke up with her and did not keep in touch with any of their common friends. He just cut his losses and moved on and she added he was cruel.
Now I do not know if she was trying to be revengeful. HOwever soon after I met my WH he told me he had slept with other women before totally breaking up with GF and that he considered that normal as their R was already over since he had announced his desire to end it.
He did the exact thing to me 20 years later. Broke off with everybody without a word (my family, common friends...) and started A and felt entitled to it just because he had verbally announced to me his desire to separate.
So to him this was a lifestyle and I can't be sure but I have a strong gut feeling that on and off thru our M he had been cheating on me pretty regularly.
I therefore deduce that a person like my WH is addicted to the "in love" thrill-stage of the A and that he needs that hight to find his life meaningful and have the illusion of hapiness.
He is also convinced that there is a soulmate out there for him. a woman who can make him happy and who is totally compatible with him.
Dr. H said (on a radio show) that serial cheaters are always looking for that soul mate, hence the affairs.
What can you hope from a person like this.....?
It is very painful to me to be without him and yes I do go on with my life but a big chunck of it is missing and I truly do not know how much better I could find out there.
In a year I have been in plan B I have never had any man interested in me (not that I want to go out with anybody) however it would be a good self-esteem boost to have someone pay attention to me even just for a minute.
I have also noticed that most men are very difficult, they have lots and lots of problems and do not seem much better than my WH.
So is WH really that bad or is he just average?
Some guys might not have the same problems he does but have others (gambling, porn, overspending, unemployment, health issues, D several times with kids from previous M, abusive, alcoholic, drug addicts, etc..)
All of this to say...I am in plan B because I do believe that if WH "awakens" out of this mess then he would be the best person for me to be with as he is the father of my son, an intelligent and hansome man and he is my family.
That is why is worth giving it a shot. I am convinced that there is not much better out there. Really not.
blessing

Ouch it hurts today.

I hope its not like a pressure cooker and the longer it goes on the more its going to hurt.

I expect that it is a roller coaster of emotions and I just have to go with it.

I can�t help wondering if he is OK and where he is, but have not tortured myself with any �drive bys�. No contact and still dark!

I spoke to my solicitor, who said that if I were to change the locks, then there is nothing to stop my H calling the police to let him in the property and having them changed back. However, there are very few spouses who do that. Also, that if it were her, she would not be happy with her spouse coming and going and would change them.

I am going to get the locks changed, I am scared about doing this and worried about his reaction. However, I am not comfortable that he may have a few drinks and get vengeful and it is peace of mind at night. I am nervous about it though. Anyone please shout if you think I am making a mistake.

I also thought about his stuff that he left, and I am simply going to put it into storage. He needs to know that I will stand by my word and if he refuses to take it then I will remove it.

Again, shout if you think I am making a mistake.

Antena

How strange, there are a lot of similiarities. My H also too has been rude of late to all my GFs, one of them said to me that your H was really rude to me the other day and when I was driving upto the house said �What are you doing here?�. I guess he doesn�t need to charm then anymore, he doesn�t need me, so why bother charming them?

A year is a long time to be in Plan B. How long do you intend to be in it for? For me, I would love to have a family, so it won�t be a long Plan B. Haven�t given it much thought yet, just want to get through these first few weeks.

You probably haven�t had a man interested in you because you have not been giving out the right vibes? I know what you mean about the �quality� of the men out there. However, I do believe there are a lot of good men out there I really do. Ofcourse there is, what about all the men who post and support others on this message board? I think maybe you want to believe that, as you don�t want to let your H go yet? Sorry, if I am wrong. I think it would be nice for you to have a self esteem boost Antena. I know you are not at the stage yet but where do you meet men currently? Just interested that�s all.

My H is more angry at me for my A and seeking revenge, I know that he thought I was his soul mate, I think he will slowly find out that its not as easy to walk away, like I did last year. I have known for a long time deep down that the only way for us to work would be Plan B, and him come back repentant, that way I won�t live a lifetime of misery being �punished� so Dr Harley is bang on. I just hope he comes to his senses, but I fear the situation is now so far out of control.

I have a session with SH today, to discuss a good Plan B.