I think that is a fair thing to question, but consider that great lengths had to be met to make the opportunity for just those 2 times.

In my situation, it was about 1/5th the length, and twice the... I'm not using MB abbreviations here - abomination.

Begin to grasp the fact that the whole "so connected/so in love" was a fantasy. It was a fantasy constructed at your expense. You did the heavy lifting; payed the bills, dealt with unpleasantness of daily living, cared for the children. It was a bubble world that was built by the fact that their interaction did not have to do with a real-world relationship.

When that bubble was burst by the pin-[censored] of discovery, it was exposed for the toxic-sludge pool fantasy that it was from the very beginning. You were NOT second choice to him, you were second choice to her selfishness, and addiction to unreality.

While YOU can be everything the OM was, and then some, he could NEVER come close to being everything that YOU can. You were simply denied the chance and the choice.

I posted something in your FWWs thread, and I am going to paraphrase it for you, and hopefully it will help you understand your self and your situation some. It is some basic psychology, and by understanding it, you should have some enlightenment as to what you need to move forward.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

If you consider MB ENs, you should notice that many of them plug in to particular needs listed on the pyramid. The way that this pyramid operates, is that needs in the lower tier MUST be met before needs in the higher tier can be met, unless there is some type of dysfunction (such as addiction, which an A operates as).

In the case of a BS, the tier of safety has been compromised. Because the needs in this tier are not being met, the needs in Love and Belonging, Esteem, and Self-Actualization can no longer be met, until safety is re-established.

Examine the higher tiers, and the needs within them; morality, creativity, spontaneity, problem solving, lack of prejudice, acceptance of facts (self-actualization), self-esteem, confidence, achievement, respect of others, respect by others (esteem), friendship, family, sexual intimacy (Love and Belonging).

For the BS, these needs have been destroyed, and cannot be met. Our confidence and any sense of achievement we had has been destroyed, we lose intimacy, we have trouble accepting facts and our prejudices come forward (I am extremely prejudiced toward douchebags right now). Our problem-solving is compromised, and so we feel cornered and helpless.

We are left to operate in our bottom two tiers of needs; safety and physiological needs.

We need to rebuild our need for a feeling of safety; of our family, our morality, our family, our health, and our property. At the same time, our acceptance of facts and problem solving are compromised. What a catch 22.

Of course, the whole time, we also have to meet our most basic needs; breathing, food, water, sleep, excretion, and sex.

Sex? Yes sex. Now, just because we cannot meet our higher needs due to our compromised state, does not mean that we no longer have those needs. We meet our basic need for sex, though we still have a need for sexual intimacy. We meet our basic need, and pine for our need for intimacy - which we cannot meet because we lack safety - and the combination is painful and jarring.

Yet, if we allow the higher need to deny us the basic need, then we become stuck ON THE FIRST TIER. If you deny your basic need for sex, Broken, you are not going to be able to address and rebuild your need for safety. Don't do this to yourself.

Again, MB principles plug into this hierarchy at appropriate tiers. Get yourself out of the first tier by meeting those most basic needs, and move on to rebuilding your sense of safety.

The MB principles that will allow this to happen are; O&H, EPs, NC, and UA.

Most, if not all, BSs have those images - we don't get to control when they pop up. Commit yourself to living in the moment, and don't let your pain deny you your chance to meet your needs or hers.

Only 2x in 3 months, and they live in the same state? I agree, sounds implausible.

Impossible? Maybe not. When people are in an affair, it's a fake fantasy-world. It can be almost as if you're playing a role... you profess love to the affair-partner that you don't actually have to demonstrate most of the time, you build a relationship that no one else knows exists, it's almost totally commitment-free (unlike real life)... so it's very easy for your mouth to write checks that you have a hard time cashing in the context of your real life. And (at least from my experience) it's not an all-the-time feeling of mindless euphoria... there can be lucid moments -- lots of them, even -- when conscience seeps back in, when there's realization of what you're doing & how flat-out wrong & rotten it is ... and so it can still be a mental hurdle to plan & go through with a physical encounter. Maybe both sides have some qualms and neither one pushes for a next meeting; or maybe it's just too inconvenient logistically, what with children & other family & work-schedule demands & the need to maintain secrecy, especially when both affair partners are married. Either way, there can be periods in-between meetings, where the relationship goes back to the emotional level. (That's how people manage to sustain affairs even when they're hundreds of miles apart.) I remember a point when, after my affair first went PA, I'd have been happy/relieved to never have it happen again. (Until OW pushed, and I gave in to selfishness again.)

All I'm saying is it's possible for them to have only hooked up twice. Like you, I find it unlikely, or hard to believe. You need to talk with her to get at her state-of-mind, to the extent she can recall what her state of mind was. WPG seems articulate enough to be able to explain why it was only twice, if that's what it was. If that doesn't get you where you need to be, then just ask her to do the poly.

Thanks HHH and GO. I guess for me it is very hard to see that she has been able to be completely O&H. She was able to look me in the eyes and lie. Swear on the kids lives, God and everyone else that she was telling the truth during the FR. She even stayed home one weekend when we were going to the beach with my family so she could be with the OM. Said it didn�t happen but can�t remember why (yea right!). Especially since OM only lives about 10 min away and the context of their communication during the PA was always of sexual content. This is not the type of person I want to spend the rest of my life with and try to rebuild this M on lies. Just not going to happen. She said she would take a poly during FR too.

the proximity to OM really really really does not help! He is only 10min away and probably will not give her up.
It is so hard to trust these WS again, I know. But you have kids and it is sad to see how little she cared.
I know not how a woman can care less about her own kids. Yet it happens daily when they are taken by OM.
blessing

All WS are expert liars. Without exception. During the A my DH once asked me after SF if I had ever been tempted to cheat. I, of course, said no. Then I turned the question on him and he, of course, answered no. Red Flag? you betcha! But he was able to look me in the eye and tell me no without flinching. They get very good at it. And I believed him because that was what spouses do.

Sure, she offered to do the poly during the FR thinking you would never go through with it. And you didn't. I suggest you follow through with it now. If she has nothing to hide, she will be calm and comfortable going to the test. If she does have something to hide, she will fall apart on the way to the test. We hear this over and over again on these boards.

Four words:

Move To Another State.

It's what Dr. Harley recommends to ensure no-contact is honored if proximity is a concern. Sounds like you could really use it.

BINGO! I would move.

Move at least 12 hours away from the OM.

It doesn't sound likely that they only had sex those few times. When my WH first admitted his affair he told me they only had sex once. When I continued to push him, saying that there was no way they had sex once, continued to meet, and it never happened again? That's when he broke down and admitted everything. I hope that happens for you so that you can have all of the facts.

Then give her the opportunity to tell you every truth you need to know, every thing you need to hear.

Whatever it takes for you to feel like you have been told the truth.

You gotta get out of this stage for YOURSELF. FOR YOU.



Knuckle up, guy. You have to get on with your life; is it with or without her?

You can walk away now, or you can put the last bit of gas in your tank into recovery.

Walk away, it's possible you may live to regret it. Or you might not.

Try to recover? You may succeed, you will be scarred, but you may just be happy. You may fail, and you may have to walk away, but it will not be with the regret that you didn't give up until you had nothing left to try.

Time to Schmidt or get of the pot. For you.

How long do you want to live like this?

Broken,

I have been communicating with your W. I want to tell you that upfront. I don't know how you start to believe a person that lied to you and looked you in the eye and did it. But, in the over 11 years I have been here, it seems very common. It is very common.

I want to bookmark for you a post I made to another person and have you read the post bookmarked within. He was the MOST influencial person I have ever encountered on this site. He was counseling with the Harleys before most of this site became reality. He taught me something and it still shocks me.

It is about "OPPORTUNITY" and how it shows up. I get the impression that you were not a very open and talkative person before her affair, and now you are indeed protecting yourself and sharing little. Very normal especially after the affair. But she talked about how you behaved during the FR. You got to her broken, you opened up and you started to change her.

You clearly have the option of divorce and no here will fault you if you take it, but you also have the option...NO OPPORTUNITY to have a better marriage than you ever had before. Please read K's story and think about it. You can find it here JL's post.

My old college football coach once yelled at me He was pointing out that the worst thing I could do was nothing, and even if I made the wrong decision it has the possibility of working out much better than nothing.

I am not trying to push you, what I am trying to say, is that you will NEVER understand her decisions during the affair, but you can understand her actions today. Recovery is definitely not for wimps, and yet it is often true that us guys think we would be wimping out to take a WW back. Read K's post.

He is still happily married today.

God Bless,

JL

/poke


Out of the shell!

You have a place to vent and to pose questions, don't waste that opportunity.

And hopefully you know that all responders to you have a genuine interest in helping you restore your M.

Head up, guy!

Thank you everyone. HHH why are you so positive, you scare me. JL I read K's story and some of his other post that I could find, pretty amazing person. Thank you. I have been thinking a lot lately about how I should approach OMW with the exposure and was hoping for a little advice. I guess how, or better yet what would be the best way for me to communicate it. Phone call, email, letter, etc? Any help or experience would be helpful.

B2009,

Do it now call on the phone, these OM types just keep doing it, but then again I'm a bit jaded from my FIL staying with us, he first started cheating when my MIL had their first child, nice huh?

It never used to bother me, but when this behavior goes unchecked it just keeps getting worse and worse, he lies about so much stuff.

God Bless
Gamma

Phone it, and get it over ASAP. It's just going to be a weight around your neck until it's done.

I'm externally positive, brother. Inside my mind, every day, I have the same thoughts and struggles you have. I refuse to let them rule me. In my heart, I'm just as broken. Every day.

I have not done a single thing to my FWW to deserve what she did. Sometimes, I wonder why I fight so hard - she was the one who gave up, she was the one who turned her back.

The truth is, I love her. I'm willing to fight. I am, however, on my last chance. I will never allow her to put me through this pain, or any of the pain I suffered through silently, even somewhat happily, for years before her A.

I am positive because I am doing everything I can possibly think of to salvage this, I'm running myself into the ground. If this doesn't work, it wasn't me who failed.

@broken2009 I called Dr. Harley and Joyce Harley on your behalf today. I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty.

He had this to say.


That's where you seem to be. He addressed his response to me, but I got on the radio show today for YOU because I was wondering if this would help you. Your choice whether or not to follow his advice. But for what it's worth, I'd strongly suggest:

1. Having a session with Dr. Harley or Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers. $200 is totally worth it.
2. See your doctor about prescribing some antidepressant medication so that you can think clearly rather than allowing anger, fear, anxiety, and hopelessness to dominate your thoughts like they have been lately.

Prescription antidepressants to allow me to sleep well despite my depression made a huge difference in our recovery. I stopped being so emotional and useless during the day, and I stopped withdrawing from interaction with my wife. I began to engage and welcome them.

Your call, of course, but if your wife is willing to recover, why not allow yourself a clearer head to decide?

Broken,

I really like what DoNoMo did for you in contacting the Harleys.

I am glad you found K's story inspiring. He totally change my perspective on a lot of things, not just marriage, affairs, or many other things. I cannot image much worse happening to someone and yet...he turned it around. When things get tough in my life, I remember K.

I also directed you to that post for another reason. I wanted your reaction to it. You see many BS especially guys, see taking the WS back as an admission of failure, that they are wimps because a "real man" would toss her to the curb and move on. Yet your reaction to K's story? He is a "pretty amazing person." Yep, my reaction as well. In fact if you read many of his posts you will see that many people see him that way, not all, but most.

I just want you to recognize that if you decide to reconcile with your W and try and rebuild your marriage, you will very likely become a "pretty amazing person" in everyone's eyes...even if in the end it does not work. For reasons I cannot articulate I feel you marriage has a good chance if you decide to go that way. I think your W is learning and growing and that is very important for recovery. She does want you back in her life and that puts you way ahead of man BS' that come here. AND you both now know how to make each other happy. She talks about that time of the FR as something very very powerful for her, and you are the one that did it.

As for telling the OMW, call her, be prepared to present evidence. Understand this is going to tell her apart but it may well protect her from contracting a serious disease if her H continues to play around. She cannot rebuild her marriage if she doesn't know it needs help. She cannot protect herself from potentially deadly STD's unless she knows. She cannot make the best decision for herself, if she doesn't know.

Broken, when you contact her, understand this. You should be doing it out of compassion, care, and protection of this poor woman. Revenge on OM? NUTS! He will do himself in if he hasn't already, so don't worry about it. But, this woman needs to know for her own safety. As a corrolary to this, if they decide to work on their marriage it will keep OM out of your hair. If they do not, OM knows you are not someone to mess with because you will do the right thing and that includes protecting a defenseless woman although it is hard to do.

You are making strides Broken, hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

DNM, I really don't think I can put into words, how grateful I am for what you did. Thank you. It has been a rough couple weeks for me and there are a lot of things that I am struggling with. I do take an AD, lexapro, which was the first thing after about 10 tries that didn't have bad side affects or just made me worst. I am a recovering addict, 21 years, sober and drug free since Aug 1,1989. I have always been very leary about taking or relying on something for to long because of my addiction. Early on I had really bad panic attacks and Dr gave me xanax but said it was something he didn't want me to use to much because of my addiction. I have to say that I do not dwell on things as much as I used too, but there are times where it just knocks me on my butt and I go downhill fast. I have seen 3 different cl and meet with my pastor just about every week. Met with with him yesterday. I have lost my faith in God also, what little I had. My WW has met with JC twice and has invited me to join both times but I just get so tired of talking about it and still have a hard time believing her.

JL thank you also. I did open up and gave her a part of me that no one has ever really seen. I put that wall up a long time ago because of the the life I had growing up. Both my parents had affairs, My dad first and then my mother out of revenge. I was maybe 11 when my dad had his, they stayed together until my sister and me finally left. They hated each other and constantly fought, verbally and physically. I swore that I would never treat someone like that, that I would never betray someone and put them through what I experienced growing up, I would never do that to my children if I ever had any. My poor sister married someone who cheated on her and they are now divorced. So when I finally opened up and let someone see me they betrayed me, lied to me. So I guess for me that is why I don't try anymore, my preacher told me yesterday that I seem to have just gone numb. So I can't help but see myself as a failure, even though I tried to do everything right, but the FR just killed something inside of me.

HHH, thank you too. I think my best effort was all but spent during the FR only to be knocked further down that hill. And there are times that I just don't know what or how I feel about WW. I have never once said anything negative about my WW. Never to my friends or my family, not even to her. Other than DD#2, which was probably the angriest I have ever been with someone. I accepted her for who she was and never wanted to change a thing.

Sorry for the purge.

There's a good chance these people may know how to make you a better person or help you deal with grief, but not how to build a fantastic marriage.

Jennifer Chalmers knows how to do that. She's very limited in how she can help your marriage only working with your wife. I GUARANTEE that, after sitting down with her for an hour, you'll feel better about your situation. You may not even decide to recover your marriage, but you'll feel that you have a much better handle on what happened, why it happened, and how to move forward.


I didn't lose my faith in God. I never had it, but acted as if I did in hopes that I'd gain it one day. In 2002, I recognized that and came out as an atheist/agnostic (atheist by the Christian definition, Agnostic by many commonly-understood definitions).

Lacking belief in God doesn't prevent you from having a great marriage. In fact, I believe more strongly in the value of marriage today than I ever did as a believer. Being strongly pro-marriage makes me an unlikely -- and unwilling -- ally with the Christian Right on this one issue, but I strongly believe it's the best possible arrangement for long-term social and individual health.

Total thread derailment: Being pro-marriage doesn't make me anti-gay, though. In fact, I think I don't mind gay marriage at all. It's a statistical dead-heat, unlikely to disproportionately affect men or women. On the other hand, I see polygamy as a mathematical evil to be fought, lest we end up like Middle Eastern countries with a surplus of oversexed, no-chance-of-getting-laid young men who are easily radicalized. But that's a topic for another day!


You don't need to believe your wife. Extend a tiny bit of trust to Jennifer, though. If you really want to leave the marriage that your unfaithful wife has disgraced, then Jennifer will guide you in how best to do so with no regrets.


Not to split hairs, but from what I understand this was not a "false recovery", but in fact your unfaithful wife "trickle-truthed" you. It may be a distinction without a difference in your eyes, but a FR implies her contact with OM was ongoing during your previous recovery, which doesn't seem to be the case. Instead, she withheld crucial information from you about the affair which actually died either before or shortly after Discover Day (D-Day).

That distinction is important because your successful meeting of her emotional needs made her fall in love with you again. See, if she had been with OM during this initial recovery period, your Love Bank deposit attempts would have bounced off the Contrast Effect between her and her lover. But they didn't. So you now have a wife who's desperately in love with you, but her huge dishonesty about sleeping with the other man during the affair prior to the start of your recovery made such a large withdrawal from your Love Bank that it drove you into Withdrawal instead of Conflict/Intimacy.

I guess what I'm saying is that what you're experiencing right now is called a "motivational swamp". You lack the desire to want to do what could turn your marriage into a terrific one. I totally understand, but this is also the best time to involve an experienced marriage pro to help you figure out your next course of action.

Broken,

I have been reading your posts as well as your wife's. As a BS I know you are hurting, but don't give up hope! Don't be afraid to take down that wall. For your own sake.

Please don't give up on God. I know you are in so much pain right now, but turn TO God, not away. Pray, pray, pray until you can't pray anymore, and then pray again. I pray for the courage and strength I need to get me through this horrible ordeal. I am praying for you also, and all of you on this forum.

This is probably the hardest thing you will ever do, so take your time so that you can make the right decisions for you.