I am WFLOWER. I am a real person. I have learned much from this forum. And I am learning about issues that are important in maintaining respect.

Anyone who wishes to speak respectfully with me, I will love to talk with, here! I enjoy discussions and questions that make folks think.

I enjoy that lost old art of conversation, mostly the kind with a caring purpose.

Do you think that we earn respect? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Yes, I think we earn respect.

But treating people respectfully is something I try to do as a matter of course, because of who I am and who I want to be.

I don't know if your post is referring to any other specific post(s), but I have seen people defend disrespectful posts with the excuse that they are not married to the recipients, and therefore not obligated to avoid LBs. I don't see how one can habitually subject strangers to sarcasm and disrespect, and refrain from practicing the same behaviors at home.

It is true that how you behave on the internet, is a probable precursor to the behavior you may portray "IRL". And LB's or just plain disrespect, a kind of tortuous characteristic in posters that just are always "right" and making it H-e-double toothpicks for others.

Are their marriages working? If you feel free to say everthing that you think on the board, it probably would help to listen to the criticism you get- and from a lot of places!

Placating fresh mouthed posters, is not helping them. I agree with calling it like it is.

But, a big question is how do you respectfully get through or around the one who can habitually subject strangers to sarcasm and disrespect. And without becoming a part of or aiding in their disrespectful process!

WF,

I am a real person too...and just because all anyone see is my words, doesn't mean there isn't a flesh and blood person typing them. How I am here, is relatively identical to how I am in real life. I don't adapt a "persona" for the internet, or lose my manners simply because I am anonymous and can do so without repercussions. Sometimes, just like in real life....I say or do something stupid or insensitive....at which point I try and accept responsibilty for them and move on.

WF...I like your introspective style and I think many of the discussions you raise are beneficial to this board. Your willingness to examine things surely benefits your life and your marriage. Good Luck in all you do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WFLOWER:
<strong>But, a big question is how do you respectfully get through or around the one who can habitually subject strangers to sarcasm and disrespect. And without becoming a part of or aiding in their disrespectful process! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, I think the best way is to ignore them. Some of these folks are venting some of their own frustration on others, some are "having too much fun" riling people up. Either way, ignoring rude, disrespectful comments is probably the best way to discourage them...although anything blatantly ugly should probably be reported.

Kathi

WF here is an honest, straight from the hip post from me.

As you probably have seen (maybe not) I started a new thread. I wanted to hear people's thoughts about how they felt when they realized that they indeed DID think of people they interact with
online, as REAL.

That thread was born out of comments I made on threads pertaining to you.

I don't feel I owe you any sort of apology because I can't see that I have said anything inappropriate, but I do believe that I should say something to you. I think I might have some things for you to consider.

WF I do agree with you that people that are disrespectful on the MB, probably are the very same way in real life sometimes, but you can't assume that one!

I talked to Star about this before and we both agreed that we are probably pretty much the same on the board as off. That is pretty rare in my experience. MOST are very different. (at first)

I have met but a handful from the net in real life (well as far as telephone interaction) and I would have to say most are very different in how they "speak" about things than they would be on board. I really don't think until you get to know them one-on-one (as in them speaking to you by email, etc) that you can make those assumptions.
I think people speak differently when making a public opinion that others will read, and another way when speaking one-on-one. It's just the way it is with human nature. The more intimate the forum the more people tend to relate at the deeper level.

I am always so surprised at their voices. Either way softer or deeper, etc, than you would typecast them to be from just seeing their text. OH and you just do not realize the varying accents.

The first time I heard someone from the waaaaaaay deep South I was almost mesmerized by the sound of the voice, couldn't even hear what the person
was saying for a couple minutes ! LOL

May I offer this conclusion tho? I do know that many, many people interact with people
off this board. By e-mail and also by MSN or other such messengers.

I think that sometimes people will post on this board and then later go "duke" out some
things with others. (maybe not with the exact two people "disagreeing" but certainly with
other posters that have at least contributed to the thread).

So now you have a totally different dynamic here. Now you have people who stay exclusively
to the board, and people who have ventured off the board into a little "more" real than even
here.

Here is my pet peeve, as you have probably seen from my posts a time a two, when people DON'T
consider us real.

A real relationship must have some perimeters in order to survive. One is trust. Trust is the
foundation in my opinion of ALL relationships.

I am NOT saying we should trust everyone here. What I am saying though is if we don't have
a certain level of trust (earned in tiny, tiny increments) then we can't expect people to
progress with us into a "real" friendship. It takes a few battles sometimes for people to bond.
Bonding on some level is the ONLY way to a real relationship. We can't expect to interact with
people and "play nice" when there is no actual bonding. Respect comes out of a desire to have
a relationship with someone. Without that things will stay on a superficial level and not progress.

I think it is unfair of us to think that everyone who perhaps is bold and a little brassy on here is that way in their real lives.

I have two reasons to back that up. One, I think that sometimes as people when we know that there is an anonymous factor we just can't resist the urge to spew our spleens.

The other reason is because I think that some people respond to relationships. So yeah, they might have that crusty edge to them at first, but as they get to know you, they reveal a little more and a little more, until you see the "real" them. All that hard butt stuff you see on here is sometimes just a defense mechanisms that keeps themselves protected from injury.

If we nurture a relationship on both sides .. it WILL grow.

If you just type a text and type a text and type a text, you haven't really created a relationship you have just typed a text.

You aren't really getting to "know" someone on any deep level. There are people here that would argue that you SHOULDN'T at all costs get deep with people here anyway, but I have trouble with that. I figure if I am going to reach out and ask people to pour into my life concerning the most precious thing I have (my marriage) then I want to at least know SOME of that person.
But again, that is a personal preference.

I am NOT saying you should break your POJA with your husband and start to email anyone from MB but what I am trying to say is that because you by your own admission don't speak to anyone off board. I really don't know if you have a good "view" of some of the people you interact with.

I have only a couple on my MSN list (and I RARELY chat there) but I can tell you that even the people that you think are "rude" are actually the sweetest and most awesome people off board that you would ever want to meet.

The board is just too one dimensional WF to really make an assessment that way.

That's my $0.02 worth anyway ..

I also wish you well in your marriage.

Blessings,
Dzzz

Thanks for the feedback. I truly do enjoy other people's respectful opinions. And it is a pleasure to exchange thoughts and ideas with other Marriage Builders who care about their marriage and are working towards applying these Concepts.

If you can respect a POJA with your own spouse, then you will get respect from a spouse too in return. Trust in the marriage is a hot item.

And when it is worked upon, other items are nice and hot too. Which is a bunch better than luke warm. Most of my energy goes into my spouse and my family these days. And I do love it this way.

I am thankful for all of my wonderful blessings.

Blessings to you too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

As Kam stated, I usually just ignore the posters that I feel are being disrespectful. If I do not think that I have anything sueful to add to a post, I read it and ignore it. Some posters I do not even read.

I also agree that how one relates on line is close to how they will relate off line. Disrespect to another person has no place either on or off line.

WF, I have said it before and I will say it again, I applaud you for having your boundries and maintaining them! On the other post, I offered a method of maintaining your anonamity(sp?) by opening up a new email account when I did not realize that the real issue was an agreement that you had established with your H. Of course any POJA has the utmost priority. I was not attempting in any way to get you to violate that. I was ignorant in not knowing the details and was only offering what I thought was assistance.

WFLOWER,

If I had known that my request for you would start off this chain of events, I'd have kept my big keyboard locked.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm sorry.

If it's any consolation, I wanted to ask you something based upon my respect for you and the content of your posts, as they have impressed me.

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Takola, and Farmer, you know I have respect for you and understand that you are working for the good here- of the group even.

Takola, I have the very same regard for you and your thoughtful posting. I do not find a problem with anything you posted yesterday. It was plain to me you had an enthusiastic idea. And you wanted to share it. That is all.

You are a fine MBer. I think we do well at things that we like, don't you?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WFLOWER:
<strong> I enjoy that lost old art of conversation, mostly the kind with a caring purpose.

Do you think that we earn respect? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi WFLOWER,

I think respect is earned, and it takes knowing someone for some time to do so. When it's lost through thoughtless behavior or irresponsible actions, it can be very difficult to re-establish. I think in the marriage, respect is important, and it goes hand-in-hand with trust.

If you don't respect your spouse, what's left?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Takola, I have the very same regard for you and your thoughtful posting. I do not find a problem with anything you posted yesterday. It was plain to me you had an enthusiastic idea. And you wanted to share it. That is all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad. If you ever change your mind, you know how to contact me.

I think that respect is earned, definitely.

You know it may be true that some folks just put a nasty exterior on here. And "IRL", they just might be absolutely charming to know and be friends with. I guess it is a mystery!

But, the humorous notes and some of the more kindly ways of exchanging thoughts and stories, seem to be a more receptive/interactive form of communication, and allowing exchange.

It allows the topic to be covered.

Ya mean there are REAL people on this forum?????

Now why would I want to come to REAL people to discuss relationship problems? I might get REAL advice or something!!!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lucks:
<strong> Ya mean there are REAL people on this forum?????

Now why would I want to come to REAL people to discuss relationship problems? I might get REAL advice or something!!!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, Laura, I'm *still* a figment of YOUR imagination!!! I'm there in your dream world just waiting to remind you that you aren't living up to our EA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Jan

I, too, am a real person. (Sounds like I'm joining in a 12-step program. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I have goals, aspirations, triumphs, and failures. I have a family, a career, and serious studies in other areas such as marriage, theatre, oral communications, and architecture.

I have a name that is not Takola. I have a husband and a marriage of my own. Contrary to what may come across in my tendency towards mostly logic, I have feelings, and I have empathy.

I have a face, a personality, and a value all my own.

I help here to give to others that which saved my marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, a big question is how do you respectfully get through or around the one who can habitually subject strangers to sarcasm and disrespect. And without becoming a part of or aiding in their disrespectful process! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I eventually just ignore it. You cannot change another person, all you can control is your own actions. There are times I restrain myself from commenting, even though I want to, just to let a situation die. That's when it is directed at me. I will come to the defense of others quicker than I will to my own defense. Sometimes, I feel no need to defend myself.

And I try to avoid being that type of person myself.

Well, that seems to sound similar to how I try to deal with it as well. Aggravating isn't it! Those fighting words are nothing but trying to make you lose your cool. Too odd to figure out but all eyes are upon the one who does it.

quote by Dan-O;
What is it about vindictiveness? What makes revenge so sweet that it sings a merry little song to the human heart?

And that was a pleasure to read when there was a bunch of that going on in the forum. A real sense of humor, from another poster! It sure helps, doesn't it?

I agree there is a fair amount of disrespect here, have certainly garnered my share, and like others pretty much try to ignore it, all you can do, cannot make people behave themselves. But I do think how people behave here is how they behave IRL...I know I do too (which some people like who I am, and some don't...that's life). What I do think happens with annonymity is a sort of alcohol effect.

A little alcohol loosens inhibitions some, and you get a real look at who someone is. I think the disrespectful, sarcastic, folks are really like that (whether they conceal it or not IRL), and it impacts their relationships. Whether it is cause they are basically aggrssive, or a defense mechancism for low self-esteem issues, I don't know...but here they can indulge more in such uncivil behavior, because there is no (or very little) consequences, or accountability. I think (although less common) the opposite behavior is likely as well.....people who are excessively nice, syrupy, etc, probably aren't quite so IRL, and do so here to get admiration and such. In any event this has been a fascinateing place to interact with others, it has enough consistentcy 0f participation to be a "community" and I have learned alot about people by watching how others behave....I have also learned alot about myself, and that is the real payoff for participation here, growth for those open to it.

I have to admit, I will probably never really fully understand those who primarily approach life by "feelings", but I have come to understand I make a substantial error in judgement when I think simply having a rational point of view won't garner emotional responses (that means I have had to learn patience, and not take it personally). That alone has been worth the time spent...seems obvious, but I have learned trying to understand people through my own filter, and bias, is doomed to failure, and that is not an obivous or easy eppihany to have (IMO).

I have also learned that temperament is a fundamental fit issue for relationships, and folks who share widely differing emotional/rational tmeperament makeups cannot even understand each other in setting like this, much less marriage....and most likely have very different life agendas (in an emotional/psychological sense). This causes some of the conflict (and kneejerk disrespect) on the boards. But there is IMO no excuse for rude behavior, aggressive behavior, that says a lot about the individual and there lack of self-control, or need to aggressively promote THEIR agenda...usually with a bunch of self-serving rationalizations.

One other "type" that completely fascinates me are those who purport to "speak" for the common good, or are "protectors" of the.....um....I dunno....whatever, sometimes the mythical childish newbie, a category of infantile poster I guess for some. I think such folks expose themself for the controllers they are as they promote there own brand of how others should post, behave. They exist on every board I have ever been too, they are usually highly aggressive, and disrespectful.....I wonder what motivates such individuals to decide they have a mandate to promote censorship of ideas. Of course such are simply promoteing their own agendas, yet claiming to be open-minded and seeking discussion...hmmm...not so it would seem. IMO all of us are adults, and quite capable of choosing who we want to listen to, and what we want to believe, and ignore the rest...an on-line community does not need censorship police...it only needs moderation to prevent personal attack, and eggregious comments (such as blatant racism, sexism, hate-mongering, stalking, or socially disgusting comment...well, and preventing commercialization to).

I agree with very much of what you have to say sufdb. You know lots of folks have accused me of being "too nice" or implied that I'm "syrupy". That's why I was so excited when you called me a pain in the [censored]!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FWIW starfish you sometimes appear (to me) a little too nice, an affectation of niceness. Myself, I am a truthseeker, all I ask for is civility, I do not want anyone to be artificially nice to me, or censor themselves on my behalf...I prefer the raw, unvarnished, uncensored truth. Some confuse that with an invitation to diss me, not the same at all, I expect and require civility (albeit I will go the extra mile with obnoxious posters to give em a chance to gain self-control...I am thick-skinned on purpose, not cause it doesn't hurt). I appreciate your efforts at discussion cause you are open-minded, and respectful even when you vehenemently disagree, and you are pretty slow to take offense (get your nose out of joint)...but sometimes you dance around too much striving to appear non-judgemental....or "nice". Perhaps you do so in real life too. Someone like myself finds that annoying as it confuses who you really are, and the intensity of what you think/feel....do you see? It means we have to filter out your "niceness" agenda so we can see what you really think/mean. No big deal, you seem to value feedback re your person...so there you are.

Likewise I have to filter out the sarcasm, and aggression someone may visit on me to see what (if any) actual point they have to make....it is tiresome and annoying. IMO everyones time is of value, so why not just respect everyone, and lose the posturing/chest thumping behavior and make your point (instead of wasting time).....or ignore someone alltogether. Occassionally someone will post this place is like high school (or even jr high), and you know what, sometimes it is....sad huh....some folks just never mature I guess....and cannot deal with someone who offends their notions of how life should be. IMO anyone should be able to discuss anything without letting disrespect or emotional response enter into it....but I have learned that is not how people are...some, but not even most....interesting.

<small>[ January 29, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>