I am giving plan B another year, but really I have no intention of asking for a D as I would have to do so in 2 countries and it is expensive and time consuming.
I guess it would be a plan B for life as I do not intend to interact with WH ever.
Your WH seems belligerant so he might be one of those who turn around quickly. In my case my WH plans B me as much as I plan B him so I think he really pulled the plug on the M for good.
Dr. H recommends plan B for 2 years, he says after that chances of R the M are close to zero.
By all means change the locks. He might be upset about it but so what...as long as he can't get in your house you will feel safer.
I am really not looking for men but the ones I have contact with are the ones at work. Many of them are much younger and many are M so they are off limits. And yes, I do nothing to encourage them so I guess they just think I am off limits too, however all of the ones who are not M do know I am no longer with my WH. But again, I give them no encouragement so ...
Maybe there are good men out there. MB posters are good guys, but they are off limits and married....
As far as plan B and pain of separation. As long as you stay dark you will be fine.
I am not dark because I see WH at work and it hurts a lot when I do. I also live in the same small appartment building as OW so I also see her car parked or not parked and that tells me when she is with him or not. That also hurts and keeps me stuck in the pain so I am not a good example but I am a good example of what should not be done.
In 1 or 2 years I am planning to move back to the States and I am, right now, looking into jobs over there, so I know that once I move away from here I will be a lot better.
What I have been doing is that I have been planning things for me. I have started a sport activity I always wanted to learn. I also excersise daily for an hour. I hike on weekends and I have 2 trips planned, one in London and the other in Prague.
I see friends on a regular basis,I practice meditation and read. I listen to MB radio almost daily and post on the forum
I do not call, message or interact with WH and do not ask about him any longer (I used to up to a month ago)nor I investigate his plans by using facebook, internet or common friends.
If anybody starts up a conversation where WH is involved I stop them right away and say I am not interested in talking or knowing about him.
I am getting better, but unfortunately I still think about him most hours of the day and I do miss him a lot. (again due to my poor plan B)
blessing

It hurts today it really hurts, this is the worst since he left.

Need to get head together.

Harmomy

Whatever you feel, do not contact him and do not be tempted to find out about him.
Read inspirational books like Eckart Tolle's "A New Earth", "The Power of NOw", "Stillness speaks".
Read funny books like "Funny in Farsi" or anything uplifting.
Watch a funny movie. Call a friend or vent on this forum.
If your thought go to WH do not indulge them. Let them go.
blessing

Regaurding your H state of mind, his past coke use has me wondering how emotionally mature he is at this present time, but I will spain why I say that.

I knew a herion addict and he was not a theif, someone who would spin a tale to get drugs, or take from anyone else. Different from some of the ppl on the street or some others.

I commended him one day and we both agreed you don't have to be an AZZholio to be a drug addict, but it helps. It points to the basic core reasons why ppl use drugs, emotional problems.
I talked to a phycolagist a long time ago about myself because I had messed around with them from 14-17 and asked him if they do permanent damage. He said they could but most of the time the damage is that they stunt emotional growth and maturity.

I know a little about how coke works in the mind and how it lies to us, but the person who does it is still doing it because thier is something they are not dealing with inside themselves and at any level of use its a spiritual/emotional sickness that in its core is a lie. They have to make the decision that they must stop, and then find out why they went there to begin with, and deal with it emotionally to truly beat the addiction and hate it.

Maybe your H allready did this, maybe he is sitting on the fence as he justifys it and denies he had problems deeper than whatever got him started. Maybe he just quit to stay out of jail. I don't know and I don't care as it applies to what is going on here but its evident there is something deeply wrong with his values towards himself, and therefore you and everybody else.

It reveals the problems he has, but does not deny a solution by any means, and that is his problem, not yours.

There are functioning addicts all through the world and they are not allways bad towards others. I will go out on a limb and say maybe they even function while they are married without outwardly abusing there mates. But the emotional issues that surround the drug abuse,(including alcohol, its a drug to me), absolutly effect the people close to you even on a small scale, especially if they are in denial that they need help on many levels and the drug use is just the start.

So much for that anyway...

I also am afraid for you if he has a few. You didn't answer me about who you could have around for protection and a witness if he got squirrly. I think you should put the stuff in storage and send the key same day mail to his parents. Maybe they will give him a place to vent and keep him from getting violent. Even you BIL might help in that way as he can be a shoulder he can cry on but keep him out of trouble.


I want to address what you said about men on this board. My personal opinion is that I would never look for a relationship with anybody here beyond what I have, and that is good freinds. Much of the pain I have expressed is something I would rather have in the past in any new relationship, and the advice and guidance found here is my place of safty emotionally. To mix and confuse the total objective advice and connection I have here would be sabotaging myself and others. I learned a long time ago that real frindship is objective, and getting to emotionally vested can end up hurting someone as you are willing to justify crap that isn't real to draw close.

Friendship is more valuable to me than lovers and can lose objectivity in getting to close. Plus many of us come here to save ourselves from pain. If we don't learn to deal with the pain but instead jump to someone else its just rebound anyway.

I do hope that I run into someone who reflects the standards and character of this board someday outside of the board itself but i would never compromise what I have in this place for me or anyone else. I am just not that desparate.


Another thing is that what is said on forums by people is just thoughts and words but does not reflect what there actions are in real life. Maybe they want to quit smoking for example before they meet with someone else or lose weight and they know they are not even ready in real life for a relationship. The words and aspirations of people with the support given on this board are important and indepensible for thier healing and growth. But don't get fooled into beleiving what everyone says is where they are at when it pertains to reality and actions yet.


Don't worry, I know you want children and you feel like the clock is ticking, but keep working on being happy with yourself and your goals outside of a relationship and I am sure it will happen naturally. Im sure you have learned so much here and will excercise the quailitys you respect in the next relationship.


Don't wanna sacrifice the permentant need on the altar of the imediate one. If you KWIM.


Glad things are getting better Harmony

Harmony,
Stick with the plan, keep your eye on the big picture and that is saving your marriage, this is the only way to force your husband to see the real him, if you let him back now he will believe he never has to change in order to keep you in his life.
It won't happen overnight......he needs to hurt as well because of his decisions......you have told him already that you love him and that you would be willing to work on the marriage so both of you are happy......that is all you can do at this point the rest is up to him......
Remember a lot of stories here that have come back to a good marriage from worse places than your marriage by following the plan at MB.
It's tough I know and I bet you just wish you could have him home but not yet, not without change, keep yourself busy with work and friends and show him you will not put up with any more abuse from him........
Good luck with your session with Dr Harley........be strong.........

Please get his stuff out of that house, the longer you wait the longer it will keep reminding you of him. GET IT OUT!

Keep going girl we know you can do this!

I know, you feel like you are on a tightrope ( of emotions)and we are all yelling "Don't look down! Don't look down!" the first thing you want to do is what?? ... look down.

I am rooting for you. Maybe not "Don't look down", but "Don't look back!"

Thanks Guys for your support. I still feel like cr*p, I suppose I am having a poor day. I blame myself, I need to get it together.

I had my session with Steve Harley. I am not really sure what to make of it. I gave him an update since it was a month ago since I last spoke to him.

He agreed that moving to Plan B was the right thing to do. That my H was a fence sitter and could not really decide whether he was married or single. That he knew what he was doing was wrong.

If I am honest I didn't really get a lot from the session, Steve just wanted me to stick to the plan and make sure I didn't do any Love Busters.

He didn't think I should change the locks or get rid of H stuff out the house as long as we wasn't coming and going frequently. I said he has been back once into the house since he officially left.

He also said that if he comes back to the house to be respectful let him get his stuff, be polite but distant and if he wants to talk about "stuff" then let him know that I wasn't willing to discuss anything unless it was about having no contact with OW or commitment to MB.



I hope that my comment to Antena was not taken out of context. I was meaning to say that there are lots of good single men out there who had good values, I thought it was a shame that Antena did not realise there may be, and that thought that there were not men who may be available who could treat her well. So I wanted to stress that if our Plan A & B did not work and we accepted that, then there are good decent men out there in the world. I really want to make that clear.

Thanks all.

Harmony

I feel in limbo in this Plan B. Limbo whilst my H does what, plumb some other woman whilst I sit at home hoping he will come to his senses and turn up on the doorstep? That he is fence sitting for 8 months because I had an A, and in the meantime to cure his broekn heart thought he would 'entertain' 5 other women? Because thats we all do when we are heartbroken isn't it? We take other members of the opposite sex away for romantic weekends.

I honestly feel like he has messed up my life and now I supposed to sit here in Plan B whilst he lives up the single life, and hope that one day he comes to his senses, meanwhile my fertility clock wizzes of the ricter scale.

Please.

I feel a bit lost. I don't know what to do with myself.

Sorry just ranting.

Ok Harmony,

The gloves are coming off. You told me he did not isolate you, but now you say he is rude to your friends. You knew from the beginning he was a drug user and a drug dealer. You knew from the beginning that he did not treat the other women in his life well.

You should be hurting, you deserve to be hurting...

You are sitting there pining for a man that is dispicable. You are sitting there wondering if he will change.
You are sitting there hoping he will come back.

What the heck is wrong with you, do you like being abused????

What you should be doing is filing for divorce.

What you should be doing is praying in thanks that your H has finally been revealed to you in all of his "glory".

You should be praying in thanks that he is gone and that you are finally going to learn how to live, and take care of yourself.

You should be talking to the solicitor about protecting yourself from this man. He had no trouble finding other dumb women to go out and screw and he has no conscience about it. He just blames you.

Someone speculated that he hates women. Well with the type of mother he apparently has little wonder.

Girl you messed up with your affair and that was YOUR choice, but please please look at your life before and after the affair and tell me that you would wish it on a friend, acquaintance or heck, even an enemy.

Pack his stuff, store his stuff, mail him the key, change the locks on your house, file for divorce and learn why you would be attracted to a drug using abuser and then justify remaining with him. I don't want to hear, "yeah JL but he quit the drugs" and then he did what? Became addicted to other activities, controling you, playing golf, anything but being a good human being or a loving husband.

You affair is not justified, but you leaving this marriage is definitely justified. EVEN IF YOU COULD ARGUE THAT HIS BEHAVIOR IS SIMPLY A RESPONSE TO YOUR AFFAIR, you would be a fool to remain with him. His response is NOT that of a husband that loves you. ONe could argue one revenge affair, but 4 plus the punishment and verbal abuse? I don't think this is the sort of man I would want to be around and I am certainly large enough, well trained enough, and mean enough to take care of myself.

He needs serious counseling and serious help, that should happen before you would even consider having him in his life, and that is after every other aspect of your plan B letter was met.

You seem to be a nice woman, you certainly messed up, and you hopefully have learned a lot on this site. These things make you are very desirable catch for man that values a woman capable of love and knowing how to make a good marriage. You think about this very carefully.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Let me add this quote: You really need to think about this quote. He hasn't changed but you are.

Well said JL, and questions Harmony should asking herself about who and what she is attracted to and why. The quote is on point also for a lot of relationships, not just Harmonys, but its a pattern that happens over and over in life. Obviously or it wouldn't be such a famous quote.

Why did you like him Harmony? What was the attraction? I really kind of know the answers to those questions as so do many people who have made the same mistakes. You are really lucky you didn't have kids with him and you at least sense something is wrong with how he treats you. Many women fall for the bad boys or are preconditioned for abuse. They marry and have kids and if they ever see it should be different it may be many years down the road after tragic circumstances.

But I think you know that. I think you see the light on that, but the question remains for you, what was attractive about him to the point you decided to marry him when he had such poor character? What happened to you and what were you thinking that made him exciting or if that wasn't the draw,....why did you settle for someone so unstable?

These are things you will need to address so you don't make another mistake that will hurt you. Remember how mad you got at your H just before you had your A? Then you went out and hurt yourself. Well those feelings and actions had some bad consequences. How come you didn't come here first and follow our advice about H instaed of the A? I know you are sorry now but have you really thought about why you had the A? Bitterness and hopelessness.

I also would like to know what you could possibly be in withdrawl from that makes any sense? I am not saying your not in withdrawl and don't feel pain, but do you realize most of what you believe about your H as in the reasons you love him are not true? You have made it up in wishful thinking and are in withdrawl from your own shattered dreams and expectations. He has not come through at all.


You are coming around to seeing him for his true colors, you have said that. You are getting very resentful towards him, good, for now. You should be seeing and I think you are that you allowed him to walk all over you in the name of loving him even though his actions hurt you.

Thats what I think you have to address in yourself after you go thru this toxic withdrawl. I say toxic because you have been with him long enough that you are addicted to the poison he is to you. Ever hear of the Helsinki syndrome? It works on a lot of levels.

Love and romance the way you might have felt about it in the past was not what you thought it would be with H. I doubt he ever really did anything for you that he didn't make sure he got back ten-fold while at the same time manipulated you into thinking he did some big favor. Your worth more than that Harmony. What happened that you don't know that?

Until you do know it follow the lead from the people who insist you treat yourself better and do know it. Stop pining for him ok? Trust JL and all the others here that you are better off without him. I think you need to talk to a therapist about what kind of men you pick and why. You would have better luck picking up a poorly behaved dog and loving it. At least if it bit you you could justify its just a dog. H doesn't have any excuse and I think you have been giving him one.

Do you have a poor little bad boy complex?

What would your Dad think about that?

Talk to you tommoroww, hang loose and don't react to your emotions of fear and anxiety. You will be out of the woods shortly and you can do it.

Your a good woman, start treating yourself like one and insisting everyone else does too.

Thats what I thought you meant, and thats really sweet you did that for atena. good support Harmony.

I was just worried about how quickly you took back H just to be rejected the next day. Wanted to make sure you realize you don't need a relationship with another man to be loved. WE care about you deeply enough to hit you with a . I need those more than nice words most of the time anyways. Kinda like that scripture.."The wounds from a freind are faithful, but the kisses from an enemy are deceitful"

Sorry if I used your thread to expound on my view of the relationships I treasure on this site and my philosphy behind it. I didn't mean to imply anything about your intentions. I know you are doing well and are in a tough place. Hang in there

Hi Guys

I needed that to bring me to my senses!



Thanks JL, I hear what you are saying, this has been my train of thought for the last few days and then sunddenly I had a rubbish day and feared I may be on a downward spiral.

Life does feel so much more peaceful and I am freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I have got someone coming round to change the locks, and I will get rid of the rest of his stuff this week and post the key. Otherwise he will only come round with another dramatic appearance telling me stuff I don't need to know.

You know what I always knew in my instincts that something was not right about him and I was right. Some of the things in the beginning that made me doubt included:

* The 'warnings' I had been given by other women
* The fact that he was a heavy drug user and drinker
* That he had been charged with GBH Grevious Bodily Harm, when he was about 24
* The way he had treated his ex GF
* That when we were first together his ex GF friends would not speak to him and one even replied when he said Hi, I want nothing to do with you you treated me friend terribly.
* His odd relationship with his mother
* That he treated me like he owned me
* The whole saga with his weird brothers ex wife, and how they spoke/treated her.
* When I first moved into his place and I saw his first temper tantrum about the fact that I had 'taken over', that freaked me out.
* That some 'connection' wasn't quite there...

I could go on....

OK I am free, Seeking was right, now is time for me to go excited about life and SHINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No more pining, no more waiting for him to appear reformed out of the sea.

I suppose the hardest thing Ihave to deal with is what Constant said, why did I pick him and go along with it.....

I could just say I was a lot younger, and I could just live and learn, I am not sure whether it takes hours of therapy. I think maybe that I just need to live by my boundaries and see what happens...

Sun shining in England, autumn time here and it really is beautiful.

Harmony

I did not interpret Harmony's words as an encouragement to date men from MB forum at all. I just was saying that they are off limits to point out that often that is the case. Nice guys are already M or trying to work on their M, why? Because they are nice.
I think you and I need to realize we have been M to men who showed their colors to us even before our M to them and now more than ever.
We are in love with a fantasy about our WH not the reality of whom they really are.
You ask yourself how could your WH see and frolic with OWs whithout a worry. Well, they just can because even if they know they are doing something wrong, wrong has different degreees of intensity. WHat looks really really wrong to us looks kind of wrong to them but not bad enough to worry themselves sick with it....
I am not sure why Steve did not tell you to just go ahead and D the bloke. It sounds like the session with him was not very useful, I wonder why he did not see the true nature of your WH....
We will get thru this...we were abused and let them abuse us...now we have to work on us and get out of the horrible victim habit of hooking up with abusive men.
blessing

Oh good I am glad you did not interpret them that way!

I still Antena believe that there are healthy single guys out there of all ages with good morals. There could be plenty of reason they are divorced or single...its just hooking up with them in the right places and right time for us.

I know you are not at that stage yet but you are giving me some really good advice and I hate to think that you think a life with your H is the only option. I really hope that at some point you can ditch this guy too and move on properly with your life, we only get one after all and everyone deserves happiness and to be in love.

I think your right about SH though, I left feeling disappointed after the session, he just kept putting my H behaviour down to fence sitting, I did keep saying I am not sure if I can forgive him now though Steve, and he just kept saying sure right...

Sometimes, I always manage to convince myself oh is he really abusive? The boundary work really helped here, because I just look at the FACTS only. No emotion.

He calls me names
He hits me
He throws things at me
He could never say he loved me
He serially cheats on me
He left a woman in the car outside when he knew I was in
He reals me in then pushes me away when he wants to be single
He never wanted to spend time with me
He had different faces for different people

I actually have a vision of what the future might look like, it might be good!

My WH, during his 2 As:
Puts me down
wants female friends
Does not want me near him and tells me so
Accuses me of all the problems in the M
Says he never really loved me
Says my body is aging
Keeps a facade with others pretending things between us are ok
Has different behaviour according to whom he talks to

All of the above are really really bad, but I think they are mostly the result of the A

When he was not in the A he was

Supportive
A good listener
A good father
told me he loved me
encouraged me to better myself
created common goals with me
spent recreational time with me

However, he also claimed he was never happy with me.

Bottom line: I could never figure my WH out. And most of his bad behavior began when we moved to Italy. Period. Before then there was a tendency and i am not saying he might not have had As, but this tendency became cruel and full blown after we moved here.



All of the above emerged after your A? Or was he like this always thru your M?
If so he is really really really bad and you should be throwing a party to celebrate he is out of your life!
blessing

Hi Antena

You have a good point here and this is good for me to write down:

Before A

* Nothing I did was ever good enough (rship with his mother, parties I organised, work on house, helping him with business)
* He was never wrong, probably apologised 2 times in 8 years
* He criticised me
* He shouted at me a lot, and had angry outbursts, such driving the car fast speeds to frighten me, breaking stuff in house
* He never gave me compliments
* Different behaviour depending on who he was with\
* Would pretend to be really nice to me in front of others, then be cold when we were on our own
* Verbally abused me and called me names

However he could also

* Be very charming
* Take me nice places, buy me nice things
* Had a great sense of humour and made me laugh
* Provided me with a beautiful home
* Spent time together doing interesting things

After A

* Very cold
* Serial cheating
* Temper and angry outburst became worse
* Bad mouthed me to others
* Paraded women around in front of me
* Hit me
* Broke things in the house and personal possessions
* Rude to my friends

Yes, your WH needs a HUGE wake up call because he is really bad to the core.
I am not a Christian, but I admire Jesus. I think he would compare your WH to the prodigal son. The fact that your WH is really bad does not mean he is not redimable. He can turn around of course. It is,however, a matter of time and i believe you have given him enough of it.
However, what you feel for him you cannot deny, but it is useful to go over the list you just wrote as often as possible and see the reality of who he is.
Awareness is important. We tend to put people on pedestals and then we get all upset if they do not live up to our expectations. In our cases we had pretty good hints about our WH early on into our M and even before then.
We decided to look it over and get involved with them. We are not just innocent bystanders.
blessing

Hello Constant

Yes I was really mad just before the A. I just felt as though he bought nothing into the relationship, that I was the one putting in all the effort. I never expected a great deal back, but I did expect love and affection and a H that wanted to spend time with me and experience things together.

All I remember thinking, is we created and built this beautiful house and I had no one to share it with. We worked so hard on it but never got to actually enjoy it. I was desperate for a baby and all he seemed concerned with was his next work deal, or look for a new house to build. My dreams seemed low down the priority list. Never just be still enjoy each others company and our lives together.

I know I could have tried to communicate this with him better, but I honestly did in some kind of way. He called it nagging. I could have sat down and had a serious chat with him, maybe that would have worked. Who knows.

I am better today, and feel 'normal'. As seeking suggested, I need to get out my yellow pad and start enjoying life!!

Thanks all, you have been such a support system.

Harmony.

Hi Harmony!

Question for you. Were you able to get JL's boot out of your rear end yet? lol...

Seriously though, JL is spot on. This WH of yours is no prize. The things that you have mentioned about him both pre-A and post-A are appalling to say the least. It is time to remove this abusive little child from your life for good.

Stop wasting time and go see the solicitor and file for Divorce. As you have mentioned many times, your bio clock is ticking. Don't waste any more time or energy on this man. He has YEARS worth of work to do on himself before anybody should consider being with him. You need to get through with the Divorce process as quickly as possible and move on with your life. You already know that there are plenty of good men out there just waiting to meet you. You've done alot of work on your 'picker' and you will choose more wisely next time. You won't ignore the red flags as you did with WH.

Bottom line is that it is time to move on. Listen to JL and good luck with that boot!!