I posted this in another thread, but I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'll copy it here...
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by elspeth:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>
Tony
Trying not to use my talents against my wife, but somedays it is so tempting... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you do that, you will confirm her view that you are controlling and that she is doing the right thing in getting away from you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">elspeth,

At the risk of a DJ, I really think it doesn't matter what I do, her mind is made up. She tells me things like I should be happy with seeing my daughter a few days every other week. She takes these sentances,

"To preserve the love I have for you, I need to take a break from relational contact with you. We can talk about the kids, but nothing else. This also means that I cannot give you money except to help support Camy."

to mean that I am not supporing my daughter.

She takes my wanting 50/50 time with my daughter as "taking her daughter away from her"

No, I'm not the one who is controlling here. I may have opinions, but I reject the notion that I'm controlling and unreasonable.

She may feel controlled, but I honestly believe that is because she resents that I have better control over myself than perhaps she has over her ownself. So she feels "controlled" just by being around someone who is in control of his life.

Of course, I'm not in control, never have been. But she felt controlled.

I wash my hands of this, I see clearly that this is largely her problem that I've been sucked into, and I will not rise to the bait of arguing with her.

She simply wants her way, doesn't care about anyone else, and then wants to blame me that she is not happy.

The final insult is that she is unwilling to attend any sort of marriage counselling for fear someone will tell her she is wrong. Yes, she has said that she doesn't want to go to counselling because she doesn't want to hear the counsellor tell her she is wrong.

Funny, I've been the one that from nearly the beginning telling her that she was right to feel what she felt.

What is my reward for supporting her and trying to give her space? She tells me I'm a horrible husband and a terrible father.

Excuse me while I dust off my shoes and leave her behind.

Tony

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I want honest responses here, how can she go from what I said to the conclusion that I'm not supporting my daughter?

How can she arrive at the conclusion that me wanting to spend more time with my daughter, and have that spelled out in the custody agreement be construed as me taking our daughter away from her?

I'm trying to be understanding, I'm the one who is accused of being controlling, yet these are real life examples of what is going on.

I think the only thing I'm guilty of is being insensitive.

Ironically, she is the one who is supposed to be so sensitive, yet she seems to misunderstand, misinterpret or just twist to suit her own means anything I say or write.

I cannot say for sure which it is, and since I only have control of myself, I need to make sure that I'm being perfectly clear, and also that I understand her POV.

I'm having a hard time with her POV as it seems so outrageous. Am I really trying to take our daughter away from her if I want joint custody with as close to 50/50 time spent with each parent?

Did I really say I wouldn't support my daughter?

I really don't want an ugly court battle, but on one hand she says she wants to be reasonable and work with me, but on the other she says things like that.

I'm feeling pretty low today...

Tony

JC, believe me.... you are walking on very similar ground that I have walked on.... also I think many others..... So I will try and provide insight that I have seen.....


I want honest responses here, how can she go from what I said to the conclusion that I'm not supporting my daughter? Key word was "help" support..... similar to when I took all of my money out of our joint checking account to have control of it...... To her she sees that you are going to only dole out money as you see fit and for what you seen fit.... she is also concerned about her ability to provide and environment that daughter was used to.... therefore she is trying to make you feel guilty for taking something away from her putting hardship on her thus she is trying to make you feel bad as if you are not being supportive enough to allow her to have daughter and do for her.....

How can she arrive at the conclusion that me wanting to spend more time with my daughter, and have that spelled out in the custody agreement be construed as me taking our daughter away from her?
Gosh..... I went through the same thing with my ex...... again she is trying to play on your sense of fair play..... like you I cared for my wife when she wanted to leave.... and she would use it to the core..... the fact that she thought I would not do anything to hurt her..... as it would mean an end..... secondly my ex wanted full custody for the money.... she could not afford to live here without it. thus she tried to play the big guilt trip by again using the girls..... and to the fact that to take children away from their mother...... what kind of man would do this????
I'm trying to be understanding, I'm the one who is accused of being controlling, yet these are real life examples of what is going on. In ways I see how she still sees you as controlling because you are not letting her get her way... and trying in her eyes to take things from her instead of just giving in..... my ex sees it the same way......dont let her back you down if this is what you want.....

I think the only thing I'm guilty of is being insensitive. A man wanting his marriage, wanting his child.... being insensitive? A woman wanting to limit the time a father has with the children, is only thinking about money and herself....now that is insensitive.....

Ironically, she is the one who is supposed to be so sensitive, yet she seems to misunderstand, misinterpret or just twist to suit her own means anything I say or write. Welcome to the world of betrayal....... they in their minds are trying to cover all their tracks that make them look like the bad guy as you seen for yourself.

I cannot say for sure which it is, and since I only have control of myself, I need to make sure that I'm being perfectly clear, and also that I understand her POV. this is the tough one JC.... but ask your counselor... granted they are only hearing your side but if you are honest and can show evidence they will give you their opinion and help you learn how to handle either.

I'm having a hard time with her POV as it seems so outrageous. Am I really trying to take our daughter away from her if I want joint custody with as close to 50/50 time spent with each parent? In her eyes only..... think... to her it will make her look like a bad mother if she gives up anytime with her child..... as she sounds so much like my ex and my ex even said this in front of the mediator one session...

Did I really say I wouldn't support my daughter?
In her eyes yes you did.... she saw it as a threat, a control of how much support you were giving.... taking away from her ability to support as she looks at you as a means...

I really don't want an ugly court battle, but on one hand she says she wants to be reasonable and work with me, but on the other she says things like that. Ah the big money battle.... I spent about 50K a friend of mine spent over 100K and still I only have every other weekend.... somehow you best bet is to find another means of communciation with her either through a court appointed PC/P.... but if you are going to court what have you got to prove against her that will award you the courts more time.....? discuss with a lawyer and think about these things... the courts favor the mothers having the majority of physical custody....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm having a hard time with her POV as it seems so outrageous. Am I really trying to take our daughter away from her if I want joint custody with as close to 50/50 time spent with each parent? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you are a loving father who wants to spend as much time as possible with his D.
Nothing wrong with that.

But, from a financial standpoint, wouldn't her CS decrease if you had joint custody as opposed to her having sole custody?
Maybe it's really about money.

Tony, have YOU consulted a lawyer?

Excuse me whist I load up the ol' record and play it in the appropriate groove.

Tony, it's FOG!! For real, she may not be carrying on her EA or PA or whatever you have finally established, but for sure she is operating out of fog.

It seems to me that you DID have some control issues Tony and that there was something really wrong with your marriage.

If your marriage was strong and healthy, obviously this would not have happened.

BUT ..... SHE turned outside the marriage and to another .. or God forbid could have been a FEW somebodies, that you may never know.

My point is that she thinks that she can find "out there" what she didn't get from the marriage.

I am not sure where your counseling sessions have taken you but from a purely MB concept you have no alternative now but to do a Plan B.

I am not sure if you gave the Plan A the full meal deal or not, but I am confident that you did present a way more commited and willing and loving husband than you had in the past so at least she does have something to compare it to and return to.

The thing is tho, until she's truly on her own and she can see what she is giving up, the Plan B can't do it's job.

Tony, I KNOW you are venting and hurting and you have given up on her at this point because she's given up on you, but you really haven't seen the end of this yet.

I am not saying she WILL come back and that you even want her to, but I am saying that what you are seeing in her right now is FOG FOG FOG. Period.

Why do you look here for answers to questions that people can't give you? I mean she is the only one that can answer this and right now she's unwilling and to tell you the truth I don't think she HAS the answer.

I still believe the fog is clouding everything. She figures she can make it out there in the world and she'll be happier this way. Time is gonna tell.

On focus on the families' sermon last night I was surprised to here that Gary Chapman actually gave up on his marriage in the early years. He told God he had had enough and it was over!

Obviously you can see that God did a miracle in his life and in his marriage as is evidenced by the ministry he has today for couples.

Tony, I understand you are venting here and it IS really bad but it is not the end yet. The fat lady has not sang ....

Do not under estimate the power of the "fog" in her life .....


DZZZ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, it's FOG!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is not really a fog..... it is a belief....rather it be self induced, influenced by family and friends, or by the Other Man/Woman.... it is a belief that in order to be strong they will pursue.....

In chasing this belief they have to let nothing stand in their way and by whatever means necessary will use all to their advantage.....

It may seem selfish and to us the BS it does.... to them it is survival....survival of the fittest..... And the feeling that to prove themselves they will purvail......

To make a point.... to self induce themselves to sustain the belief.....

Tony,

Based on your posting history I agree that you had a real problem in your marriage with controlling behavior on your part. You've struggled hard to understand what this means and how you can improve.

But the situation is different now. That history is still there, it's still hurting your wife, and it's natural for her to still feel distrust over the issue. But she's being unreasonable a lot of the time these days. And she's learned that if she throws around the word "controlling" it throws a wrench in your works somehow -- even if you don't cave, she gets you spinning your wheels on something unproductive.

Have you read the book "Emotional Blackmail"? It aptly describes how your wife is dealing with you: "Give me what I want or I'll slap you around with this word that makes you flinch and try to give you guilt trips over your child."

Of course I think it also decribes some of your past treatment of your wife: "Do things my way or I'll imply you're unintelligent or incompetent."

Anyhow, your wife is using accusations to try to control you currently. The book I mentioned is good reading when dealing with someone acting that way.

Edited to add: As long as she chooses to be unreasonable, trying to come up with reasonable explanations for what she says isn't going to work. Sometimes people choose to be just plain unreasonable.

<small>[ January 28, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: mineownself ]</small>

Mineownself,

Wow, I think you paint a pretty harsh picture. I don't think I ever implied or even overtly said anything like that. However, I do believe her personality didn't take too kindly to criticism, so even if I said something like I wouldn't do it that way and nothing more, she felt deeply hurt.

The more I look at it, the more I see it more as she wanted me to approve and if she didn't feel like I was in 100% agreement with her, she felt controlled.

I don't deny that she felt controlled. I just have a hard time with the notion that I tried to control her.

Does that make sense?

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>

I don't deny that she felt controlled. I just have a hard time with the notion that I tried to control her.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why?

We all try to control someone else at some point or another. In fact, we all try it as young children -- "Give me what I want or I'll throw a temper tantrum."

Small children being generally incapable of understanding complex emotional interactions, in no time flat the child throwing the temper tantrum actually believes they are crying because they are really hurt, not because they tried something naughty and didn't get away with it.

Even as adults, we all mess up once in a while and try to control someone in some way. And most of us occasionally confuse our motivations for what we're doing without even realizing it. "You should do things my way because my way really is the right way to do it," is a controlling statement, since it tries to change the other person and says they are wrong not to change, even if the person making it thinks they are acting for everyone's best interest.

I get the feeling from your posts that you're realizing not all the problems in your marriage originate with you, but that sometimes you let that make you think *none* of them originate with you. I'm pointing it out because I don't think it well help you establish current peace or future happiness. I definitely applaud the fact that you are questioning your wife's statements though, especially when they seem flat out unreasonable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mineownself:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>

I don't deny that she felt controlled. I just have a hard time with the notion that I tried to control her.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why?

We all try to control someone else at some point or another. In fact, we all try it as young children -- "Give me what I want or I'll throw a temper tantrum."

Small children being generally incapable of understanding complex emotional interactions, in no time flat the child throwing the temper tantrum actually believes they are crying because they are really hurt, not because they tried something naughty and didn't get away with it.

Even as adults, we all mess up once in a while and try to control someone in some way. And most of us occasionally confuse our motivations for what we're doing without even realizing it. "You should do things my way because my way really is the right way to do it," is a controlling statement, since it tries to change the other person and says they are wrong not to change, even if the person making it thinks they are acting for everyone's best interest.

I get the feeling from your posts that you're realizing not all the problems in your marriage originate with you, but that sometimes you let that make you think *none* of them originate with you. I'm pointing it out because I don't think it well help you establish current peace or future happiness. I definitely applaud the fact that you are questioning your wife's statements though, especially when they seem flat out unreasonable. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your last paragraph is an interesting perspective. I think my view is more accurately described this way.

I realize that I'm not solely responsible for the problems in our marriage, and I also don't believe I can fix them solely either.

At some point, for the marriage to work, we both have to work on the marriage.

I have been unable to convince her that the marriage is worth working out. That doesn't make her wrong, or me right or vice versa, we just have a different view.

I don't want to control her, but I'd like a genuine chance to convince her to consider working on the marriage.

I don't feel she is giving me that chance, nor can I force her to do that.

Tony

If your wife says you are "controlling" every time you DO NOT AGREE WITH HER, then it is SHE who is CONTROLLING YOU.

1. You do not agree with her or do what she wants

2. She says you are "controlling" by not agreeing with her or doing what she wants

3. You feel bad about being "controlling" and may feel guilty or actively "change your stance" and "your opinions" to agree with hers.

4. You are NOW changing YOURSELF to please her.

5. SHE IS NOW TOTALLY "CONTROLLING YOU" BY GUILT AND GETTING YOU TO CHANGE YOUR BELIEFS AND ACTIONS TO MATCH HERS OR GIVE HER WHAT SHE WANTS.

This woman has manipulation down to a tee. She is really good at it.

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The other aspect of this is, if you were more compatable with each other in every way, there would not be that "static" between you very often. You would agree on most things and love each other enough to cope easily with the things you do not naturally agree on.

She would not need to MANIPULATE you so often and call you controlling nor would you be at odds with her beliefs, desires, and opinions so very often.

There would be a better flow between you both if you had been more compatable people to begin with.

Now perhaps, after this is all over, and after you learn all you can about good communication skills, etc,

THEN you will meet some mature acting non-selfish woman who is totally compatable with you and the relationship issues and communication will come easily. The little misunderstandings you always have will be small and laughable. You can both be happy and laugh and have total joy together in your love. Your LOVE and its strength (and Gods love) will be the "main thing" and any other little "irritant" of life will be easy to deal with.

This is a supreme joy everybody should experiance! There is nothing like it!

Baba,

She doesn't accuse me of being controlling, but she acts like she is resisting control. She doesn't accuse, but she doesn't listen either.

She says she wants to be validated, but when I validate, it seems to annoy her, and if I point out I don't feel validated either she just accuses me of being concerned only with my feelings.

I don't doubt she feels controlled.

What she doesn't get, is unwilling to consider, or just doesn't believe is that I have no intention, nor have I ever had the intention of controlling her.

I might want to control spending, have a neat house, but that doesn't tell her what to do.

Tony

Jeez Tony, it must be getting anoying to pick apart your W words and actions trying to fingure out her motivation and intent.

Don't. Stop trying to do that as it is clearly not benefiting anyone, you lest of all.

I wrote in your other thread that I think plan B is what you ought to do now. It would give you some measure of peace I think.