Also to clarify, I am in full agreement with Mel as to how these sorts of negotiations should be handled, i.e. through IM's as she laid out.

My advice was based on your stated plan to meet him. I believe that would be the best course to follow if you do meet him.

Better still to have someone else (IM) do the early negotiating to find out if he's even ready for NC. You've got the steering wheel in both hands, and it's totally up to you how much drama you pull over and let into the car. The best answer would be none. If you do pick up some drama, the less the better.

For your sake and your kids' sake, stay in a place of peace and serenity. Your time on the front lines of the Affair War is over.

You're getting great advice, NP. I don't have anything better to add, just support.

One question: do you have an IM for your Plan B? You said he texted you - that with the ensuing conversation may have fed some of his ENs, but given the FR before, I would be wary of him slipping past the Plan B contact rules.

Not the biggest of your worries right now, just a thought.

newpetals, Tell your WH that you don't date unavailable men. Since he's already got a girlfriend, that takes him off your list.

Once he no longer has ANY girlfriends, you will consider dating him. (And then, of course, moving forward as outlined here to see if your marriage can be saved.)

There are several different roads you can take.
The common thread is that, in order for your marriage to recover, the man has to return to you hat-in-hand and remorseful, sorry for his actions and wanting to do whatever it takes to return into your good graces.

I believe an appointment at a neutral, third-party location to discuss his plans to abide by the conditions laid out in the Plan B letter is appropriate. If the conversation varies from the script of discussing how he's going to uphold the conditions of Plan B, it's time to end the appointment. I call it a "date" because a typical location for such an appointment is over a meal at a restaurant. Such a location serves two purposes:
1. It's a public place; you are safer from angry outbursts, and
2. If you enforce your boundary and get up from the dinner first, your unfaithful spouse is definitely stuck with the check!

Dr. Harley has seen many recovered marriages in which an unfaithful wife was not initially remorseful for her actions at the start of recovery, and a patient, loving husband has persuaded her back into the marriage.

He has seen very few recovered marriages in which an unfaithful husband was not remorseful. If he doesn't express remorse for his actions, and demonstrate through his actions that he is adhering to the strict but minimal terms for the end of your separation, there's nearly no chance of recovery.

I guess I would say that this approach makes sense if RECOVERY is the ONLY goal. But as has already been touched on by Mel's advice, especially given the Plan B FR she has already endured, NP needs to protect her emotional health and well-being and perhaps even her LB$ for her H (which I am not sure can withstand another FR/cake-eating stunt). She has indicated that she was feeling well about things before he contacted her and now she cries each time she looks at her daughter today.

NP, like Mrs V I am also interested in how it was that your H was able to contact you? If you decide you aren't interested in breaking Plan B until NC is established, etc [I think that's what you said you are leaning towards, is that right?], please do not open any communications from him and make sure your IM doesn't pass any info along until he agrees with your PBL conditions next time...

I agree with Susie, just ask him this [or have your IM ask it] and depending on his answer, proceed accordingly. If he can't answer yes to both, you would be better off staying home and cleaning the oven, seriously:


1. have you ended your affair with Skankyhola?

2. are you committed to recovering the marriage?

Hi NP

This is a good sign ofcourse, it sounds as though you meet many of his En's and OW is not.

I think Melody has given you some great advice. I would not consider meeting him unless he has ended all contact with the OW and is commited to rebuilding the M. Otherwise it will mess you up again. I read one of your recent points about how good you were feeling and that you didn't NEED your H, you could survive quite happily without him. I think if you meet him and he is just trying to see if he can still have some control over you, it will just set you right back and you will just end up spending days/weeks rebuilding yourself again.

I know you must want to see him, so it will be difficult not to, but I think he needs to know that you will not meet him unless all contact is ended with OW.

I sawm my H Sat night whilst in Plan B, and I am still trying to get myself strong again. I was exactly like you before I met him, feeling good and strong and I am trying to get myself straight again.

If you do end up going, then make sure you look gorgeous, and don't get into any relationship talk. I spoke to Steve Harley recently and he advised that if I did see my H whilst in Plan B, I should be polite respectful but refuse to do any rship talk until he ended all contact with OW and was commited to rebuilding the M.

Best of luck your doing so well.

Harmony

I thought you were in Plan B...this just proves to himself that he can get you to engage with him anytime he wants just by saying he wants to work it out. I wouldn't meet with him and any information needs to be done through IM. He's still in affair land and moving in with her on the 17th. Stay in Plan B it's a plan for a reason. Set the bar high - if he's still with her then you should not go talk to him.

t/j SG, nice to see you. I hope you are doing well. /tj

NP, I personally think that you should shore up your Plan B, and not let this affect you.

Maybe you could send a message through your IMs that you would like nothing more than to be a family again, after the affair has ended. That you would like your WH to talk to SH. Then, you could talk to SH and see what he suggests.

I would NOT go to this "date." It will harm you and boost his ego, in turn feeding the affair.

Stay your course. As a BS, I know that all we dream about is our WS coming to us saying that they want to come home. WSs KNOW that. They can USE it. As ML said, your WH wants you to come back to the fold. He wants you to be okay with it. He is offering you CRUMBS. You are worth WAY MORE THAN CRUMBS.

BTW, you not making him happy was NOT why he had weak boundaries. He ALWAYS had them, you just didn't see it until now. That was NOT your fault. You are 50% responsible for the state of the marriage BEFORE the affair, but SO WAS HE. He is 100% responsible for his affair. Please remember that. See what a small amount of contact will do to you? Please stop talking to him on the phone and don't text or email him.

I remember what people told me on my thread in case I see my WH. If he says ANYTHING, I am to say, "Have you decided to end your affair and work on our marriage?" If his answer is not, "Yes." Then I say, "Call me when you have." And I walk away, hang up, etc.

Take care. (((((NP)))))

What Scotty said. NP, if you meet with WH under his terms I'm afraid it will devolve into debating old hurts and grudges and will accomplish little - other than WH getting his 'fix' by seeing you and re-engaging you in his life.

I'll say it again: I think he's at a point where he's re-evaluating his choices, and I don't think he likes what he's seeing. I think there's a little patch of defog that he's peeking through right now (if defog is a word, but you know what I mean. I think that somewhere in that morass of entitlement and selfishness is the man you married, and he's dimly horrified at the turn his life has taken.

I also think you've come an awfully long way, NP. You've endured some stuff that would send other spouses running, screaming all the way. You are different now, and are someone who knows what she wants. You have your terms, NP. Use them. Do not hand the steering wheel over to WS. He'll put both of you in the ditch.

Immediate NC. Nothing less. Then it's time to talk.

NP,

I'm going to agree with everything said 1000%. Especially about the affair being OVER. That's the only way I was even close to willing to talk things out with FWH. I already knew things were bad in paradise anyways because of my IM (who tried her best but wasn't a great IM). ANYWAYS.... I also didn't have the issue of him actually living with her though.

I am definitely concerned, especially all you have gone through. You are getting totally great advice. I wouldn't even meet with him unless NC has already been established, as ML said I think. And IF that is in place, no way should be be moving back in. But I know that has already been said.

You can do this, NP. Be strong, LISTEN to all the great advice. I'll check in with you soon.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{NP}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I thought this was key..


You might think it is a chink in his armor that you can use to end his affair, but probably it will make him feel more entitled to live walking the fence.


I agree with Mel and others on his demonstrated efforts and proven NC before you spend time talking and you stay dark.

I also think it would be healthy if he was remorseful about his A. I know many ppl have said its not important and it will come in time but let that time come thru counsel with Harley. She doesn't need to hold his hand till he is sorry, the fact she is giving him a chance should be reason enough for WHs hope.

Don't jump the gun NP, the plan as it was working is really your best hope either way. I was a little concerned about his expalination about what he "needed" to "get out of his system". Thats not "I didn't know what I was doing, I made a terrible mistake".

NP, you have gotten the best advice already. Just wanted you to know I will be praying about this. Also, if you continue to "negotiate" the divorce please check to see if you can stipulate no overnights with the opposite sex (unless he M's her ICK) while your children are visiting.

Hey NP! How are you feeling today?

You've gotten some really great advice here and it seems to be pretty consistent. Some may disagree about the amount of remorse from WH at this point but other then that all seem to agree that you should be extremely cautious here.

I'm worried about a setback in your emotional state NP. You went through such a rough period for a while there and I have been encouraged that lately yours posts seem more upbeat. I sense that you are through the worst of it and I am very concerned about a major setback if you let WH drag you into his entitled, wayward fogged-out world. You and your kiddos do not need that!

Just be careful NP and please do not even discuss a possible reconcilliation with WH unless he has already ended the affair and has complete NC in place (transparent and verifiable). Get back to being dark until that time.

Thanks ff....this is going to be difficult if they are living together. I don't know how it would be possible that he would be able to have the children without her around. That is something that has to be discussed.

After reading all the advice on here, it really made me think HARD about this. For one, he really shouldn't have been able to contact me. When I saw the text I should have forwarded it right on without reading it. And I probably shouldn't have answered it.

Secondly, it seems like a HUGE red flag to me that he's trying to reconcile (if it's real) with me all while going ahead with her and finding a place to move into. Is he just getting cold feet about living with her? And even if he is, I do think it is key that he should just end it with her before I could even have considered R with him. The fact that as soon as I told him I thought we were done that he's rushing ahead with splitting up our assets and telling me he's moving in with her - well, it really says something about him. I was already feeling like I was just done with the marriage before and that convinces me even more. What's to say if he truly ended with her, and we tried to recover, that in six months he woudln't just decide he was unhappy again, quietly go ask her if they can get back together and walk out the door on me? He did it to me while we were married, now he's seeing if he can do it to OW....it isn't a good sign at all.

I admit at first I was really sad and wavering about letting him come back home because I know this is already really affecting DD, and she doesn't even get it yet. She's never had to go stay with him and OW yet. But the more I think of it, the more I just want to be done with him.

I think the damage done by him to me was too great. One thing I keep thinking about.....we had a fight one time and he compared me to OW. I said that was really cruel of him and he said, "You know what? It felt GOOD to say that! " That just shows the cruelty and do I want that? Can't I be happier without that?

What I wonder now is do I meet with him or not. I am 90% just done and wanting out and feeling glad I can live my life without that hurt now, and even the last 10% doesn't necessarily want R, but just is grieving the marriage and our broken family.

What's going to be the hardest is that he and OW are actually moving into my neighbourhood. I don't know why. He says it's so the kids can walk to school from both houses and I pointed out that that's two years away, and he gave me some crap answer about how they might buy the place (usual bull from him, it's not even a rent to own). I just better never see that b#tch around here or I will seriously have no problem telling everyone in the near vicinity that she slept with my husband while I was pregnant and broke up my family.

Anyway. Just ranting now, I guess. Bottom line, I just feel like I'm done, although it makes me SO SAD that this is what it all came to.

Well, goodness, NP, of course you're going to have to let all of your neighbors know, so they can protect their own M's from your WH and his POSOW. I'd probably even mention that to WH, just to let him know that their reputation will be preceding them.

In fact, it might be worthwhile to canvas the neighborhood with taped-to-notice-boards sexual predator notices showing photographs of both of them prior to their arrival. Just basic photocopies would work out fine, with very basic, factual details beneath. Consider it a nice housewarming gift.

Yeah, some people in the neighborhood are going to think you're an incredibly vindictive ex-wife. Libel only applies if you lie, so stick to the facts.

Had the OM actually moved to my home state of Utah to get closer to my wife as he threatened, this was exactly the tactic I had planned. I may even have the notice sitting on a hard drive somewhere today.

You don't have to make a final decision on your M right now. He has been terribly selfish and cruel, but your chances of R are dependent on what he's like when the A ends, not what dipwad thing he says or does now. You can't judge or predict his future behavior by who he is now. You can only judge when it happens...or doesn't.

Thus I would encourage you to be open to the possibility of R when the time comes, and not worry about it right now. Does that make sense? You don't close the door now, or even worry about it cause you're in a whole nother room.

If you're not sure you want to meet with him, don't. Send him a short note saying something like, "WH, it is still possible for us to R our M. We can't even begin to do that with your adultery partner still in the picture. At whatever point you are ready to have No Contact with her for life, and fully recommit to our M, I will consider meeting with you to discuss our options. Until then, please continue to send all communications through IM."

(Basically a super-short PBL.)

Then go back to completely dark. I would STRONGLY recommend changing your phone # and do not give it to him. Do whatever you have to do so that he has no access to you except through IM's. If something very serious happened and he couldn't reach the IM's, there are always family members, his parents, your parents, etc. You don't have to worry about that.

Think about it. We're here.

D to the ITTO. Word.

Hm, well here's my plan, and tell me what you think:

I will meet with him and ask him one question: Is he still with OW? If he says yes, then I will tell him that before we have any kind of talk, he needs to leave her, be in his own place for some time, all the while PROVING to me that the A is over and done with, and then after a while we can talk to SEE if R is possible, because I can't promise anything right now.

Even that is going to take supreme effort on my part, because thinking of having to try to R with him at this point is just so draining. But I don't want to rush into D if it's not the right thing to do.


One thing my brother said to me yesterday - either WH a) has actually been dumped by OW and is now trying to come back home to me but making himself sound good like he's "giving up" a lot to be my husband, instead of being remorseful and sorry like he should (basically using me because he has nowhere else to go), or b) he's still with her, and is now trying to do to her what he did to me, not ending his relationship before trying to see if he can kindle another one. Neither reflects very well on him, I think... But maybe I am just clouded by the hurt and angry at him still?