This denial. Yes, we all fear D. None of us would have chosen this path for our children.

And yet it is. That's the reality.

Why do you say she's the de facto custodian?

Bud, you're on the Titanic arranging the furniture while she eats cake in a lifeboat.

What's the status of the OM?

Time to take action, which requires hardball. What would motivate her to come back when you've let her keep the kids and are being passive?

Help,

I'm not in denial about anything. I get it: She has moved on. You and I disagree about the tactics to win her back. You want me to file for custody and/or divorce. Unless she files, I'm not doing either. Period.

She's the de facto custodian because our daughters spend 4.5 days with her. But in our region and states, this arrangement is temporary.

The OM no longer works with her. He got a new job, about 15 miles from her in downtown D.C., in August. I suspect that they are continuing their A. However, I can't tell. When she picks the kids up, I don't have enough time to remove the GPS tracker, let alone charge it and put it back in the car.

What would motivate Honey to come back is that the OM moves on to another woman and ends their A. Listen, please, to my on-air phone call with Dr. H. Here is the link (I'm in parts A & B): http://richwith.com/mb/radio/shows/09-2010/09-14-10/ This scenario also played out in SAA, when Greg left Sue and she returned to John. (I can't believe I wrote that last part). Have you read SAA?


---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife has NOT filed

A belated update: Honey asked me to sign papers to re-title our car in Virginia, where she lives, and not in D.C., where I live and we used to live. I don't mind signing the paper. But I do mind not being able to visit her apartment where our daughters live 4.5 days of the week. Any advice on whether I should negotiate with her?

I'm conflicted. On the one hand, I don't care too much if the car is re-titled in another state. If we reconciled, we would likely live there, though NOT in her current apartment. The car remains in both of our names. And I don't want to push her to file for D, which she can do starting Monday the 18th, and jeopardize us going trick or treating with the kids. On the other hand, I wonder if negotiating with her about the car might be part of the stick for Plan A.

---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife has NOT filed

I understand how you feel and your stance on filing for a divorce or separation and how it effects your children. I totally understand because I am there. i have not filed and at this time I have no plans to do so although I hold the option to do so later. ;0)

I am also trying to do a plan B which I think is HIGH time for you to do. Trying to bargin with her is not going to work showing her your best HAS not worked. SOmetimes you have to let sleeping dogs lie... Meaning heal you and let her run her course. I can tell you from experience your ideal of them begins to dim and get harsher as you continue to expose yourself to her ugly ways and actions. Recouping your marriage if that happens will be harder when you have those HARSH ugly thoughts in your mind later... Just a thought.

This_will_pass writes,


I agree. Over the past month, I have caught myself recoiling in emotional pain from talking with or seeing her. My reactions are not helpful to anybody. Going to Plan B would prevent me from feeling that way.

That said, I hold out hope. Before anybody breaks out their 2x4's, let me explain myself. Honey invited me to go trick or treating with our girls in our old neighborhood; the OM no longer works with her; and I'm going to write a brief poem, give her a flower, and invite her out to dinner for our anniversary next week. Although I suspect she will reject my dinner offer, I will plant some seeds.

You also write,


Actually I have no problem filing for separation. I would do that to separate our finances, which would protect me from her taking money from me. But filing for divorce or for custody -- she would have to flaunt her boyfriend in front of me or start smoking pot in front of our girls for either of those to happen.

Thanks for writing, by the way.

---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife has NOT filed

Check with your lawyer....you don't have to allow her to take the kids to another state. If you want to see your kids more often then put your foot down.

I will talk with Dr. Harley himself today on his radio show. The segment should appear in the next few days. When it does, I will let y'all know. In the meantime, my preamble and question are below:

By the way, I have NOT asked Honey out to dinner for anniversary. Nothing to celebrate, I figure; and asking her would make me look like a doormat. But perhaps Dr. H will convince me otherwise.


---------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife has NOT filed

I talked with Dr. Harley on his show today. He is more open to me going to Plan B. Holding out much longer without committing LB's is increasingly difficult. "No matter what I do or say," he said, "you can't win." However, he says I should stay in Plan A if or until she files for D. The show was on today: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Dr. H's advice is more in line with the advice of most of the vets on this thread. I'm on board with it. I'm frustrated with Honey and our sitch. Staying in Plan A is unrealistic.

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife has NOT filed

nvm

Hi MJ,

Just let me say that there are quite a few people on here that I have learned to respect and admire, and who I have learned from just from interactive posts and reading. W/o naming alot of names, some of them are Bliss, Igrip, Melody, Mr. W., Constant, stillhere, help, definitely Writer, and not the least of them, is you. In my opinion, all of these people are pro-bowlers in terms of handling an affair, and much more, in terms of regaining an M. Simplistic yes, but in terms of human reaction no.

Your post is sort of confusing MJ, in that you are allowed to hover on that fence of a Plan A and B. At the expense of questiioning Harley, and yes people do question mentors, professors, and and advisors, and maybe a few people here, I have some concern. That concern is no mention from you about the impact of all this on you daughters. It is one thing for a counselor to give advice, it is another for a dad to protect his kids from an OM. Does Harley know truely about the situation of your daughters being exposed to this creature? MJ, this is just common sense.

If I were you, and again I am not, I would get active protecting my kids from this affair and their mother. I think you are doing okay in general, but MJ are you fighting for your chidlren. That is, I think, the biggest complaint that I or others may have on here. It is not to tow you down, but it is to rise as a dad and snatch those children from your W's waywardness, and to at least give them some semblance of a stable loving upbringing. In truth MJ, your lost W is not capable of this and she will severely damage them for life.

The Best,

Tom

My only questions:

Do you have an IM in place?

Do you have your Plan B letter written?

Do you have yourself set up and ready to go for your Plan B? - because you will need to be very dark, and frankly, I am not sure you will follow the rules. It will NOT WORK if you break no contact. P.E.R.I.O.D.

Agreed... I think you are failing your children by hiding behind Dr. H's recommendation, at the cost of taking action to show them they are loved and their dad is willing and able to fight for them..... remember you CALLED IN to Dr. H, as opposed to paid for counseling; he does not know the specifics of your entire situation. Yes, I listened to both your calls in their entirety.

Tom,

Thank you for the kind words. I am proud to stand in the company of Igrip, Mr. W., and help in your eyes.

I admit that my plan is confusing. It's somewhere between Plan A and Plan B. But isn't Sick of Limbo doing the same plan? He's getting advice from Steve.

Dr. H knows that that OM was around my kids. I told him that the last time I was on his show. So his advice took that fact into account. As for the OM allegedly touching my kids, I'm stuck. DD3.5 did NOT volunteer this information to me; I asked her. That makes it less admissible in court. In fact, DD3.5 has not volunteering anything about the OM or "new man" since they went to the carousel park in August. I understand your concern, Tom, but I have no legal ground to stand on. It'd just be quick sand in fact.

I AM fighting for my kids. If they weren't born, I would divorced by now. Being abandoned for a year is just too hard without the idea that I'm sacrificing my present happiness for their future happiness and well being.

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife has NOT filed

Schoolbus writes,

My only questions:


I do have an I.M. He and his family used to love next door to Honey and I. He knows my sitch and is happy to help. However, I may need to ask him to handle emails as well.

No, I don't have my Plan B letter written. I'll compose it over the weekend and post a draft here.

As for being set up and ready to go, I would need to cancel our joint bank account. I would also have to do something, I'm guessing, about our credit cards.

I understand your concern about me not following Plan B. But I would go dark, dark, dark. Taking this has been tough the past few days. I'm not sure why. I still have hope about the trick or treating, but not being in regular and meaningful contact with Honey is rough.

Thanks for writing. I read your posts with interest.

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife has NOT filed

Go to Plan B now.

No trick or treating, because you are still meeting HER needs, and letting her cake-eat. STOP IT.

In Plan B, you do NOT read her emails. That would be for the IM. You get only messaged from the IM, never ever never ever from Honey herself.

never ever never ever never ever

nothing from Honey


YOU are dark. You do not get a fix, and Honey gets no fix.

This is what I mean about you not going dark. You absolutely cannot do anything that would even allow her to SEE you, not even for one tiny millisecond.

That means you cannot sneak a peak of HER, either.

You will need to arrange for somebody else to be the person who exchanges the kids over to Honey and back again. YOU cannot do this, because the risk for you?????

You will break Plan B.

Because you have the WRONG idea - that your case is unique, that Honey is unique, that her affair is "special".....


NONE OF THAT IS TRUE, MJ. Your situation is a mess because you have dragged it out. You have shuffled your feet to find yourself on the path where you are.

Go firmly now to Plan B. For once, do not hesitate. For once, follow MB to the LETTER. If you have a snowball's chance in he//, you absolutely must be a MB pro, and right now.



As far as whether or not you have "enough to go to court" on OM, IMHO I wouldn't give a good krappola either way. I would act on that ASAP and make da*& sure he was NEVER alone with those girls - by putting legal action in place YESTERDAY. I wouldn't care if the judge didn't believe me. Because down the road, sooner or later, MY DAUGHTERS WOULD KNOW I STOOD UP FOR THEM, NO MATTER WHO BELIEVED ME OR NOT.

That is what matters. Not the judge, not the police, not the court.

Having been there PERSONALLY, I wish just ONE SINGLE SOLITARY ADULT would have done something. Anything. Just one f&**ing time to stand up for me. It would have made a difference in MY LIFE, and who cares if the police would have believed it? I wouldn't have! I would have felt SAVED SAVED SAVED.


That's all for now, because I have found my anger pot.

SB

Hey, MJ, I just re-read your thread to get caught up. I'm disappointed that the news isn't better for you, but I cut out back when I realized that you were leaning toward Plan Hope as opposed to aggressively going after your M.

I don't want to you, MJ, but I can't for the life of me understand why you have spent a year fiddling while Rome burns. You have wandered in the desert of Plan Hope while your WW builds a new life for herself and your DDs.

You exposed in the most ineffective way - you 'implied' to your WW's and OM's employers??? Your mentioned it to an "EX" colleague? What good was this supposed to do? Why would you have to expose numerous times to her relatives? One effective exposure should have been all that was necessary.

You've had posters falling out of their chairs, begging you to protect your DDs from OM and you have demurred.

You have had posters advise you to get legal help and you've tossed out a dollar amount you can't afford. Tell me, MJ, do you know how much it's going to cost you to just live for the rest of your life? But you're going to continue living, right? Do you have any idea what it's going to cost to get your DDs through college? But you're going to do it, right? Why should protecting yourself and your DDs be any different??

Now here you are. Your WW is gone. I don't think she'll be back. Please don't send her flowers and candy. Please don't accept the scraps she throws your way when she wants to get her way. No, no trick or treating with her and the kids. Find out when trick or treat will be held in your neighborhood and you can take them there - just you, not WW.

Please don't twist in the wind, growing older and waiting for your WW to come out of the fog. It sounds like she has gone through the fog and come out on the other side, without you. Will she stay with OM? Who knows? But don't you think you deserve to finally take a stand for yourself and your DDs?

Dr. H says Plan A? I think you've done all the Plan A you can do.

Sorry, MJ, but I feel very discouraged and saddened and frustrated for you right now. I'm with HTLD, schoolbus and the rest who are advocating for Plan B. Heck, Plan D is looking pretty good for you right now.

Something you may not have thought of, MJ: You are sending a terrible message to your girls by participating in things like family activities when it is perfectly clear to them that you are no longer a family.

You are teaching your daughters that a family is not a full-time committment, and it's okay to just drop in for fun things like dinner or trick-or-treat and then go away again after the fun is over - go away again when you feel like it.

Your WW is fine with this. It's what she wants - a happy family divorce that she can feel good about and that provides her with a built-in babysitter (you) when she feels like having one.

Are you fine with this?

An MB thread on this topic, in case you have not seen it yet:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279757&page=1

Please consider what you are teaching your daughters with this - and what you are teaching them by simply standing by with your hands in your pockets and doing nothing while the OM takes over their lives.

Amen to everyone who posted on this page.

No more excuses, MichaelJan. The time to be a man of action is YESTERDAY. Don't go trick-or-treating. Take your daughters with you BY YOURSELF.

The sooner she's out of your life, the better. You deserve a life free of her poisonous influence. And stop calling her Honey. She's gone - she's moved on, and probably laughs at you with OM for how you take whatever scraps she throws you.

I have been slammed at work, at home with the kids, and going to a support group for separated and divorced Catholics, so I have not had time to respond to your posts. Oh boy.

schoolbus,


You and I disagree on the timing of the tactics, not the tactics themselves. I agree that going to Plan B means going as dark as Pluto. No reading of her emails, no looking at her pictures, no chance encounters -- nothing. And I agree that Honey's waywardness is not unique. In fact, the similarity of her behavior with that of other WS's convinced me that I could benefit from posting on this forum.

You write,


Following MB to the letter isn't possible because there isn't a letter (or book or bible or set of authoritative posts). Doesn't the difference between Dr. H's advice to me and the 2 x 4's directed at me on this forum prove this point? Dr. H says to go to Plan B if she files for D. Most commenters on this site go to Plan B now. Dr. H says to go trick or treating with WW and our girls; the commenters advise me not to go. Also, most commenters on SickofLimbo's site in August or September advised him to go to Plan B and sell his house. Yet Steve and Dr. H advised him to stay in Plan A and NOT sell his house.

As I understand it, Plan B has a couple of components. It's to help the BS not deal with the chaos and confusion of the WS' behavior. And it's to force the WS to rely on the AP to have all of his and her needs met. Right now, I can deal with the pain and confusion of Honey's A, though I admit that it is wearing on me. I look forward to us being a family again on Halloween; I hope to deposit serious units in my WW's love bank. So I will go trick or treating with them.

However, I will go to Plan B if she files. That would be the last straw. I know, her being with the OM should be the last straw, but for now I can handle it.


maritalbliss writes,


Your point requires explanation. After I implied to the boss of my WW and the OM in October '09, my IL called my mom. She thought I was endangering Honey's job and called to complain. (My IL likely did NOT know that Honey was having an A). They got into an argument and my mom hung up on her. Exposing at work, if you can call it that, had backfired on me. My goal with exposing to my IL's directly was to get their support. Exposing Honey at work again would have killed any chance of winning their favor.

By the way, Dr. H. did not endorse exposing my WW's A when I called his radio show in June; he said exposing would not be a bad idea, but couldn't bless it. This is another area in which MB'ers disagree.

FWW, I told an ex-colleague in a FB post that my WW and his buddy were having an A.

Mulan,

Don't worry; Honey knows I'm not going for a fantasy divorce. In August, I told her that if she files, I will counter-file, asking for full custody and putting the OM on trial. I also said I would not speak with her again.

Arpeggi,

Honey may sound like poison to you. But to me she's the mother of the two most beautiful girls in the world, was my best friends for eight years, and deserves every last shot of redemption.


With all of this said, I am on my last legs in Plan A. On Friday, I had an hour-long training session as part of my job. The consultant's job was to ask me about my personality at work. I loved talking with her; she made me feel special and that she understood me. She happened to be an attractive, smart woman my age. Over the past three days, I have thought about what dating her would be like. I have tried to be realistic, but have also indulged in fantasy thoughts about what a great life we could have. The bottom line is that I did not ask her out; did not send her a follow up email; but my love for Honey is waning.

Please pray for me and my family. And keep up your advice and comments.


-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife has NOT filed

Good luck, MJ.