I had another one of those finding out "what you're not telling me" episodes yesterday. Not about the affair...but something that was major and he should have been open with me about it. Yet, he spent the weekend being really distant, obviously distraught, and refused to tell me or lie about what was bothering him until I had to come out and SAY I already knew some about it. I explained how important being trusting, open, and transparent about things is for us right now. He apologized for keeping it from me. Said he felt he wanted to have all of the details to relay to me before he could express what was concerning him, etc. He said he thought I would view his lack of knowledge about the situation as implicating him or appear as lacking control. I told him I NEED to know how he's feeling and what's going on,....in order to connect. He LIED to me about what was going on, when I KNEW there was obviously something wrong. Instead, all I got was..."nothing's wrong". Trust is HUGE for us right now. Saying nothing is wrong when there is, ...isn't good for us at this point.

He went on to say,...well, if you need to know all of what I know about it is in my email, you have access to....blah, blah...but I told him that's not the same as coming out and sharing stuff with me. I went into a conversation about how I am taking a huge risk in opening myself up to him right now,...not knowing for sure if it's safe to do so, but doing it anyway....trusting he will do the same and trying to assure him it's safe to do it with me. Not telling me, says to me he doesn't trust me with knowledge about his feelings and events!

Anyway....my biggest concern now, is, he seems perturbed that I am not willing to share MY email account...the one I journal in (much of it, he would perceive as hurtful to him),and also receive several covert/surveillance messages with. Plus, I have said, much of the info my friends share with me in email is their private business,....and I want to keep their confidences, etc. Same with FB.

I dunno...am I being a hypocrite? I wasn't the one that repeatedly lied. I wasn't the one that can't be trusted...but he feels it isn't fair. Ugh!

Should I change the surveillance feeds to a different email? It's bad enough I have to snoop on him, but I feel like that would be a huge mistrust if he ever found out about an account I never told him about.

Any thoughts?

Transparency in recovery is a two-way street. We betrayed spouses often feel entitled to continue some secrecy of our own because of our spouse's secrecy. But despite popular opinion on the forum, this is not what Dr. Harley advocates.

My wife and I had a similar situation, though sort of reversed. She had totally locked down her computer, locking me out, because she had become aware of how I had been spying on her.

Jennifer Chalmers provided us the alternative of talking for a few minutes each day about what we did on our computers, and made it very clear to my wife that she must not conceal anything from me; the computer must be open for my inspection at any time. However, Dr. Chalmers also cautioned me that I should scale back on the clandestine monitoring, as watching what my wife was doing constantly was withdrawing massive amounts of Love Units. My daily actions kept reaffirming that I thought she wasn't trustworthy, which is a huge DJ in recovery four months after the no-contact letter.

The solution worked. FWW opened up her computer to me -- though I could have forced my way in at any time with my computer skills, I did not want to do so -- and we began sitting down every night to talk about her feelings and what, if anything, she wrote that day in her journal. In return, I also shared the same for me.

So my suggestion would be something along the same lines. Ensure your lines of monitoring are still fully operational, but scale them back to checking perhaps once a week instead of daily. Make those monitoring systems something that YOU check, rather than something that reports to your email account. Relocate your journal entries somewhere else. Make sure he knows how to get to the journals if he really, really wants to, but remind him you are not enthusiastic about him reading them without your express consent on a per-entry basis because they represent your unfiltered thoughts and are full of disrespectful judgments you had before you thought them through.

I'm guessing the solution you'll eventually negotiate is something like this: if he wants to read the journal entries, have him ask you, then you read them first and tell him what the entry contains. Your goal in these readings is to provide him what he was seeking, but you want to filter out the Love-Busters you put into writing at the time.

Remember the default position of the POJA is "do nothing". If he reads them without your enthusiastic agreement, he's breaking POJA. Treat it like you would any other Independent Behavior: negotiate an end to his Love-Busting.

Now, there is one caveat to this. Dr. Harley suggests that spouses check up on one another as much as they like. If no infidelity is found, you should talk about what and why you checked with your spouse. If infidelity is found, however, he recommends the betrayed spouse keep clandestinely monitoring indefinitely.

Given the infidelity in your relationship, your methods of keeping track of your spouse's actions should be your SOLE exception to POJA and Radical Honesty, because there's no way an unfaithful spouse would be enthusiastic about such monitoring because it's against their affair interests. Keep up with some clandestine monitoring, but keep it extremely confidential, and start scaling it back if no further infidelity is found. I will tell you from experience that if you know something you shouldn't when your spouse is misbehaving, a spouse trying to hide that from you will spend their every waking breath obsessively figuring out how you're watching them, and Love-Busting you into oblivion until you give up your sources.

Yes, move the surveillance emails to another account and open up your email account to him. He should know everything in your journals and each and every word your friends say to you. This is how you create a cohesive, interdependent lifestyle. Like Harley says: "Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance."

Be completely honest about everything EXCEPT your snooping. It is conditional radical honesty.

Thanks SO much for the advice. I know he wants it to be fair. I want it to be, also. Lord knows, I do! I especially appreciate the advice about sharing the journals. I know he thinks my keeping it from him isn't right,...but, like you said, there's a lot of unpleasant (unprocessed) thoughts expressed in there that would be gigantic LB's to him, ...no question.

* sigh *

* deep breath *

Looks like I'll have to open it up to him.

You don't HAVE to do anything. But you know that, in order for your marriage to recovery, this Radical Honesty thing really does go both ways. But be sure to let him know your journal is fully of demands, disrespect, and anger that, according to the plan you're following together now, you know you should avoid. Do POJA allowing you to read the entry to him and filter it as you feel you need to, but don't keep any secrets from him.

Except that one secret. How it is you keep tabs on him. Keep that secret EXTREMELY close to the vest for the next year or two. Whatever you do, don't share it here on the boards!

My thoughts, exactly, DoormatNomore. I fully intend to keep tabs for a long while. He knows the reason why. I don't like doing it...and it's very hard for him to except that, at times. Even still, I am aware of the many ways for him to slip through any kind of monitoring. Doesn't sit well with me at this stage in the game. I've already experienced too many shocking realizations of just how easy it is for him to say and do one thing and be doing quote the opposite.

Hey Daisy, he can't dislike what he doesn't know about, if you get my drift.

I don't believe Radical Honesty applies to snooping tools, does it? Anyway, here's how I addressed this with my H: I was honest with him and told him that I reserve the right to know what he's doing, where he's doing it, and with whom he's doing it. And that I will be employing various methods in order to achieve that. And he would have to accept that as my way of making sure I am safe. I never told him what my methods are, although he knows that at any given point he could be wired for sound. I do not have to worry about surveillance reports going to my email, but if I did I would open another email to receive them, and not tell him. He does not have the right to know my snooping methods. He was totally fine with that.

I have invited him to do the same thing with me. However he wants to snoop on me is fine with me.

That is right, MB, radical honesty does not apply to snooping techniques when there has been an affair. Snooping techniques should be kept secret forever if you have ever found evidence of an affair.

HOWEVER, if you have never found evidence of an affair, you should be honest with your spouse about it.

You could take the stance that you are willing to open up a journal of your innermost thoughts only to someone you can really trust, indicating that this is something your FWS has to earn, rather than demand.

FWIW, I keep a journal, and have indicated to my FWW that if she wants to look at it, it's available. She's never done so. The ability to do something and the desire to do it are two different things.

Quoted For Truth. My wife has opened her journal to me... and in so doing, my desire to read it ebbed. I simply ask her every week or so if she's journaled lately, and if she hasn't, what she'd journal about if she could.

Note that she'd used the journal to save photos of the OM. That's why I was so suspicious of her journal in the first place!

These days, she's decided to take her journal public with a blog talking about happy family memories, sharing recipes, and that kind of thing. It's enormously more fulfilling for her with the social context, and the days of trying to keep secrets from me in a journal are over.

Well,...being that it's so early, I've decided to take the stance of earning it. I still don't feel safe to do it. And, he's in a withdrawal phase right now. Anything he reads will only push him further into his depression. I told him that I understood the desire for fairness,however, until I feel connected again,...valued,...feel like he is proving his openness with me (especially with feelings),...I will keep it to myself and share what I write via email (as processed thoughts and feelings) and things to him verbally until then. I'm still being open,...just keeping the key to the box for now.