Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm not writing a lot right now (ssooo much to do) but am listening!!!! I promise.

I did plan on doing something through MB. I don't think traditional counseling is the way to go either. Mainly, the immediate counseling was to have a 3rd party involved in the boundary setting and what it would take for me to be comfortable again. Also, I'm sure H has some things he would like to see happen too, ONCE the trust issues are resolved. It is also on how to deal with the children. For restoration, I plan on a Harley route!

Having said that.... here's a recap:

Long day and night. H and I met with FT together. Not much accomplished other than H told his side of the whole story of our marriage from beginning til present. I thought it was going to be more about how we go from here in deciding if/when we reconcile. I'm sure H wanted his story out there for the FT to hear. I'm sure he wants to make sure it is understood why he felt it OK to have an affair, etc...

It's OK: I had 0 expectations going into it. I mean that too - not just saying it. Actually, it feels a bit better that he hasn't just "changed overnight" because this feels more real.

SOOOO...I didn't get to get into my list of my requirements for going back in. In fact, I'm pretty sure H just thinks I'm still dying inside for him to come back, etc... He doesn't get that I'm not! The funny thing is, even if I told him that I think he wouldn't believe it. He would think that I'm just being told to say that or whatever. Doesn't matter to me: I know the truth and that is - I'm NOT dying for him to come home or anything like that. In fact, I know that reconciling for me means a ton more pain. I can't explain it, but there's been a shift for me. It's not so much that I've gotten to the end of the race as it has been described, but that I truly can take it or leave it at this point. Right now, I know I will be just fine without him. I would worry about the kids, but I know they don't want me just taking him back under any circumstance either.

The way I see it, for me to go back into this marriage means I have to go back to pain. Back to trying to heal from infidelity where right now I'm good and detached. If I give my heart back to him, that means I also open myself up to the hurt of him being with another woman. If I don't reconcile, I don't have to open my heart back up to him again, and I avoid pain.

Do I still think it's worth it? Do you save the marriage no matter how tough? Well, that's why we're all here. Having said that, the cheating spouse sure doesn't realize the strength of the inner beast they've unleashed. At least not it my case!

We set up another appt for next week so we can discuss the things we were supposed to get to tonight. I actually think it's a good thing: give him more time to sit and stew by himself without me or the kids.

And yeah, Mr. W., I can see that happening with promising a reconciliation "some day". Personally, if they want each other that bad, they can have each other!

I'm really tired but I'll try and post more specifics tomorrow.

Sunny,
I think a little patience and time to let everything settle is what is needed....when we first find out about our spouses infidelities we go into a bit of shock from all the disappointments we now must accept......our worlds and belief stystems are destroyed and gone from our hearts.....
We now don't even know the person we are married to, in our minds they were someone who could be trusted and to make decisions not to hurt us or our families and now we are seeing a person that makes decisions based on only their needs, like we don't even mattered to them anymore.......
We see someone who is weak and they just don't seem worth it anymore if this is how they choose to think and act.....
I think you have decided what your boundaries are and if he can't respect you then I think you have come to the decision that this will have to be it......
I would wait until I made any real decisions until some time has passed and you have really had the time to weigh out all the facts and feelings you have.....
You don't have to go back into the marriage with pain, you go back only if things are worked on between the two of you and both of your needs are met by the other....
Dealing with an infedility is difficut to forgive and understand but it is an opportunity to move on to a better marriage, learning from how and what has happened......
My therapist said to me, why don't you start with believing in him and your marriage UNTIL, he said this is where you start......if it doesn't work it doesn't work......
You have to decide if it is all worth it to you and if you have any love left for him.
Of course you will be alright we all would be....I've never been a quitter and I know at least even if it doesn't work that I tried and I lived up to my word, in good times and bad.......I can only control my feelings and my actions......
He will have to be on the right page for all this to happen, so giving him a bit of time to really feel what life would be like in his new world is all good.......you want him to be committed 100% or it won't work......but that is up to him......
If he really wanted to be with the OW he would aleady be gone.....
Take your time, keep yourself busy with the kids, work..........good luck
you sound like a very strong woman............

Sunny,

Did you get your side of the M heard as well? I hope it isn't all WH doing the complaining and then you move on.

Seems like he is still pretty foggy to me. I would be very very careful about a false recovery right now. Try not to worry about the kids, pretty hard to do, just realize that under any circumstances you will worry about them.

Do something for yourself this weekend and try not to think about WH.

ba

Jess....VERY wise words!

BA: I agree on the false recovery. It truly is hard to not worry about the kids, but I know that eventually it is in their best interest for their mother to be treated like she should be treated. If they need to have their dad separately, because he can't do that - it's so very sad, but better than their mom being treated in unhealthy ways!

I did get my side heard - partly in my individual session the day before and I did speak up in the joint session also.

I don't mean to be so "short" when people have taken so much time to write so much to me lately... trust me that it is all going to my heart and brain. :-) I am just busy and honestly, trying to not focus on this so I am checking quickly and getting on with life with my friends and kiddos. :-)

THANK YOU ALL for being such an incredible group of people who are so willing to help someone they've never even met. Nothing like going through it to have empathy for others, right???

OH...and I keep forgetting to add that yes, the bugs are gone.

Sunny...

I wanted to chime in with a little something...


Right now, when you communicate with your husband or have a counselling session or whatever with him...

YOUR SOLE IMMEDIATE AND NUMBER #1 IMMEDIATE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE..

IS


NO CONTACT.


Keep coming back to that in your conversations with him. In fact, start with that.

NOTHING can be recovered if contact continues.

He's not clear enough thinking yet to really get much else from your sessions as he's focused completely on himself.

So just keep coming back to it as though it's all that matters right now.

He's a day one'er at an Acoholic's Anonymous and all that matters, initially, is keeping the guy sober TODAY and getting to realize that NOTHING can happen beyond that until he strings together a few weeks of sobriety.

Maybe cut to the chase with him...ask him when the last time he talked to OW was and, then test the date he gives by saying have you talked or communicated in any manner with her since then. Tell me the truth because KNOW that you are FOR SURE not coming home until you have gone at least 25 days (however many days left in his hotel room month rental). Tell him you are going to be asking him every day and asking for as much verification as possible and LYING is not an option. Remind him that OWH will communicate with you any contact that he discovers as well (you can bend the truth here a bit as you may not have made that deal but OWH would hopefully contact you in the event he discovers continuing contact...so it's kinda true). Tell him that if you discover he LIED...he'll be out until January, 2011, at least and he'll miss Christmas at home. If he breaks no contact and is honest about it...only the 25 day waiting period resets.

I don't know...come up with your own timeframes but lay out boundaries and then STICK TO THEM.

NO CONTACT...the first essential boundary.

Mr. Wondering

If you listen to the radio show today (or over the weekend), you'll also get some really good litmus tests.

If your unfaithful spouse resists complete transparency in all of his dealings in the future, he's almost certainly not ready for no-contact yet. It's a sign he's going to hide something from you if he wants to persist in maintaining his Secret Second Life. There's no need to argue or fight for this transparency; simply enforce your own boundary that you are not willing to enter into recovery with him until he is eager to give you such transparency.

The same thing when it comes to Extraordinary Precautions. If he's unwilling to implement them, it's almost certainly because he recognizes they will interfere in his ability to pursue his affair. Don't argue or fight, but be willing to state that his unwillingness to protect the marriage through some basic precautions tells you he's not ready to recover with you yet.

And finally, his commitment to a program of marital recovery. If he only wants to see certain state-approved or church-approved marriage counselors rather than work through one of the MarriageBuilders program with you, it almost certainly means he wants to pay "lip service" to recovering his marriage while preserving his affair. Generally because attending marriage counseling before "giving up" would allow him to claim in the divorce to have worked on the marriage, when in fact he never gave up the affair.

You can litmus-test him without setting up conditions for him to fail. You can enforce your own boundaries to avoid getting hurt without making demands on him. Good luck.

And give it time. It usually takes a wayward at least three weeks after D-Day to figure out what he actually wants.

Great advice, Mr. W and Door! It's true that the litmus tests are just as important as transparency - I agree.

I thought that it might be best to discuss all of that with the counselor present. That way, there's a professional telling him as well and not just me. Although, he should be willing even if it isn't just me.

He did agree that we needed something more than marriage counseling. I didn't want to go into specifics with him about what I wanted to do (MB) until I knew for certain there was no contact. SO... all of that will happen next week. He can sit in the hotel without me and the kids and think on some things. Of course, there's always the possibility that he's out hitting the single scene while I am home with the kids....but so be it. Still better than him being here being an unfaithful spouse!

Haven't posted in a few days so I thought I'd put up an update. Not a lot to say: things have been relatively calm with H and I. We haven't talked a lot. He has texted me some and called a few times. It has been pleasant. We needed to discuss some financial issues today, which was not fun.

Right now we are scheduled to go back to the counselor tomorrow night. I am going to tell him though that I don't see counseling or any type of recovery program doing us any good until there is complete transparency and a commitment to the program. It can't be "I'll try" - it has to be that he wants to do it. I've told him this before, of course.

I do believe the contact stopped between him and OW but can't be completely sure. My intel isn't perfect but pretty darn good. However, as we know - it has to be more than just stopped contact with her. It has to be a commitment to the marriage - a desire to be with me. Otherwise, he willl just go right back to OW and if not her, someone else. I DO really believe that I deserve a loving relationship - that I am not just someone to be "endured"!!!

Anyway, I feel somewhat in limbo right now - but am just living my life for me and the kids right now - doing the best for us. We will see what H decides if he is ready for recovery. I just don't know yet.

I am going to get Surviving an Affair today! I have read all I can about it here on the boards, but really need the book.

I do think recovery is more than just working through the issues: you have to work back to the feelings you once shared. I think it's possible, I really do, but only with 2 willing people that are both vested.

I'd add "A letter to the other woman, approved by me, indicating you will never see or speak to her again for the rest of your life" as the first requirement before I'd be willing to go to counseling...


Just remember that SAA doesn't cover exposure, because at the time it was written Dr. Harley & Dr. Chalmers weren't sure of its efficacy. Now they are, and a chapter on exposure has been added to the 2011 edition of "His Needs, Her Needs", and will be added to the next edition of SAA.


I disagree. I think you need to make a new, terrific marriage, much better than the old one, in order for it to survive. And this will involve all kinds of new feelings you've never shared before with your spouse.

But you're right... one spouse can only sustain the marriage for a limited time. Eventually, both partners have to buy in, or the one who's trying will give up and everything falls apart.

I forgot about the NC letter - good reminder!

I did exposure already, to the best of my ability. I can follow up with that if I see signs it is not fully over.

I agree - it's not about the old emotions anymore, is it? It's about the new!

Hey Sunny...

Still confirming "no contact" with him (even though you can't really trust what he says right now...you should be asking him to make it clear it is the number one priority).

Yup on the No Contact letter too...

Boundary: make the "no contact" letter a requirement and since such letter is essentially contact...indicate that you will require the letter to be sent ASAP and THEN, at least, 21 (or whatever number of) days after the "no contact" letter and continued No Contact before you'll consider letting him move back in.

Thus...he'll be motivated to prepare and send it since the clock doesn't begin until AFTER he's sent it.

Boundaries Boundaries Boundaries.

Practice saying what you mean and meaning what you say. He needs the message that you aren't playable anymore and he'd better straighten up or find himself on the outside looking in.

Mr. Wondering

Correction, MrWondering...

Typically, you'll want to craft the no-contact letter together. And the BETRAYED spouse should be the one that sends it, because most waywards will add in their own note about "my wife made me send this, ignore everything it says, it's not true."

They'll often do that afterward anyway, but it's one less possibility.

Got it! Makes sense. Thanks!

Yeah...what he said. lol

Of course, the end conversation was supposed to have happened so the letter seems kinda of redundant - esp. since I already talked to her as well... but... I trust it still needs to be done.

Going over it and drafting it TOGETHER and him signing it and handing it to you for mailing will be a great way to emphasize how important NO CONTACT is to you, the marriage AND to him coming home.

If you make a BIG DEAL out of this he won't want to go through it again. You make this the FINAL of all FINAL contacts. You tell him that if he contacts her again...you'll have to go through this letter writing process AGAIN. It SHOULD BE uncomfortable for him and his willingness to suffer through it is a testament to his willingness to actually move forward.

Of course...he can always refuse to do it...which gives you a great indication of his seriousness about recovery. Much better than trying to read his mind.

There is a method to this process. Take the steps and the next will follow. You can only really judge him by his actions as his words are meaningless...thus...require ACTION to see what he does.

FURTHER...try to curb your expectations a bit. Even if he IS serious and ready to do recovery...the fogginess is going to prevail for some time. He won't TRULY feel guilty until he's in love with you again and that takes time.

Trust the process.

Mr. Wondering

Ahhh...I see.... that makes a ton of sense: the letter is not just for the sake of the letter but for the process.

Talked to H today: he appears to want to work things out and is willing to work within my boundaries of doing so. We discussed those as well as needs he has too. Proceeding cautiously - haven't discussed his moving back home yet but I'm optimistic things can get better. :-)

Don't have time to write a lot of detail at the moment but I think it was a very good conversation all in all.

What are your requirements for recovery? Raise the bar HIGH. You don't want to suffer through a false recovery.

I agree! The NC and transparency along with a marriage recovery program are the basics.