Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 306
E
Member
OP Offline
Member
E
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 306
I want to believe that WS can truly be FWS. But it is very disheartening to see posts like "here again" on the forums.

So how do you know that you will not break you EPs and stray again?

Please help the BS. I want to believe my husband when he says he never wants to hurt me like that again. But in my world, very few thing live in shades of gray.

He has given me no new reasons to doubt him (since D-day in March) , and he does seem to feel genuinely pained by his actions. However I am having a very hard time getting past the thought that he WILL stray again.


Me - BS
Him - WS
Discovery 3/26/10
NC letter mailed 5/27/10
NC letter recieved 5/29/10
My Thread

Recovery may not be an option. Seriously looking a plan B/D
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,499
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,499
Quote
However I am having a very hard time getting past the thought that he WILL stray again.

Eluna,

Many BS have trouble with this. The fact of the matter is there is NO GUARENTEE. Even Dr. H states this. In fact, in HNHN (I think it was in there.....I can recheck if you like...), he even states that's is more likely that the WH will resume an affair!!!.... shocked

Shocking, I know.

For me personally, this is how I overcame that fear. I KNEW that for the sake of my family and that of my children, I needed to attempt Recovery. Mr. Not provided me with the necessary EP'S and maintained NC. That kept me plugging away.

But what kept me going was defining my boundary. I have no control what-so-ever really what Mr. Not does. I can concede that fact. But my boundary is very clear, IF Mr. Not ever chooses to have a another affair or resume his old one, I will IMMEDIATELY go to divorce. There will be no attempts at Recovery, no Plan A, nothing. It matters not what my role in the marriage was at that point, I will DO IT. Never again will I go through the horrors of his CHOICE to have an affair (actually, I should correct this...FIRST, I will go through a a Plan FU, and then straight to a divorce lawyer and I will proceed with the nastinest divorce lawyer out there and fight for each and every thing we own....).

Mr. Not is very clear on my boundary concerning this. VERY CLEAR.....

Knowing MY boundary and willing to defend it, well, I sleep very well at night.....

Hope this helps....

Not2fun

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,757
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,757
If it's certainty you want, it's not out there to be had.

I realize that it's probably not much consolation for you to realize that the "certainty" you had before (that he would never cheat) was a false certainty of the "ignorance is bliss" kind, and that ANYone who is "certain" is enjoying that false certainty.

You can believe him when he says he [at this moment] never wants to hurt you like that again. But as for the future, all talk is talk. Sure, I'd LOVE to be able to offer my wife certainty -- but for me to say anything NOW, in the present, regarding the future, would be just talk. Actions, not talk, are what counts.

So what you can do is to each meet each others' emotional needs, keep in constant communication to recalibrate about what they are (as these needs can shift over time), revisit the EP list every once in awhile as a check-up, maintain absolute transparency with one another, and above all, keep up with the UA time.

As in not2fun's example, I know that I've used up my one & only "get out of jail free" card. My wife told me on D-Day, within hours after I'd confessed to her, "Do it again and you're out on your [censored]." She made her boundaries clear. Not as a threat, but as a promise.

Make your boundaries clear. Not as a threat, but out of love. Make your standards & expectations for him clear.



Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,738
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,738
Originally Posted by not2fun
But my boundary is very clear, IF Mr. Not ever chooses to have a another affair or resume his old one, I will IMMEDIATELY go to divorce. There will be no attempts at Recovery, no Plan A, nothing.

Exactly. There is no reassurance, and there are no guarantees. If she ever engages in another affair, I'm done. No Plan A. No Plan B. I wouldn't even confront her with the evidence. I'd simply visit my lawyer, file the divorce, and when I served her, it would include printouts of the evidence of her infidelity as my justification.

I'm willing to give this one more chance -- and truthfully, our marriage is joyous most of the time. So I think this chance will last a lifetime.

But it's her last chance. My heart would break under the pressure of trying to win her back from another man again.


Doormat_No_More
(Formerly Barnboy)
Original thread lost in the forum purge of '09.
4 months after D-Day
1 year after D-Day
Two Years Later
Four Years Later
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123
Likes: 1
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
Originally Posted by not2fun
But my boundary is very clear, IF Mr. Not ever chooses to have a another affair or resume his old one, I will IMMEDIATELY go to divorce. There will be no attempts at Recovery, no Plan A, nothing.

Exactly. There is no reassurance, and there are no guarantees. If she ever engages in another affair, I'm done. No Plan A. No Plan B. I wouldn't even confront her with the evidence. I'd simply visit my lawyer, file the divorce, and when I served her, it would include printouts of the evidence of her infidelity as my justification.

I'm willing to give this one more chance -- and truthfully, our marriage is joyous most of the time. So I think this chance will last a lifetime.

But it's her last chance. My heart would break under the pressure of trying to win her back from another man again.

Exactly.

EP's, boundaries, and an opposite sex avoidance plan.

These things allow you to communicate what you are and are not willing to accept.

In my case; I will simply, not at all, ever again, accept any type of opposite-sex friendship. Period. Ever.

Any and all interaction with persons of the opposite sex are to be limited to professional interactions only.

Why? Because the first opposite sex friendship she developed, she cheated.

Never. Again.

2 weeks into this I realized that I can walk away at any time and be OK. I don't hide this. I can be OK, and I can be happy.

Your WS is either on board for moving forward and making right, or is not.

Your guarantee is simply that you will not tolerate it ever again.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,240
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,240
El, honestly when you read the "here again" threads it is often found out, through a few posts, that the couple never really recovered from their infidelity. By this, I mean, they never did the MB plans to their fullest. They often picked out what they wanted to do and left out things they didn't feel comfortable with.

MB is NOT a guarantee, BUT it IS the best chance. My advice, follow MB to the letter. That would include being honest with your WH about what you will not tolerate in the future. And go for it.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,738
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,738
Originally Posted by Scotland
El, honestly when you read the "here again" threads it is often found out, through a few posts, that the couple never really recovered from their infidelity. By this, I mean, they never did the MB plans to their fullest. They often picked out what they wanted to do and left out things they didn't feel comfortable with.


Or, in the case of some here, only ONE of the spouses was doing MarriageBuilders. The other one was playing nice-nice, giving trickle-truth or carrying on an active affair. The most typical symptom is an inability to meet the minimum 15 hours of UA time and 15 hours of family time per week, combined with some desire to keep anything private from their spouse. Just do the math, and you can see how impossible it is to carry on an affair without your spouse knowing if you spend your time the way the Harleys recommend with UA & family time.

Looking at my typical day... when the heck would I carry on an affair?

* 24 hours in a day
* 2+ hours UA time
* 1+ hours family time
* 9 hours work time
* 1 hour of commute time
* 1 hour cooking/eating breakfast with my wife & kids
* 8 hours of sleep

That leaves ONE to TWO hours a day to myself. It would take a very creative wayward to leverage that tiny amount of time if they are following the Harleys' program otherwise.

Last edited by Doormat_No_More; 11/01/10 11:45 PM.

Doormat_No_More
(Formerly Barnboy)
Original thread lost in the forum purge of '09.
4 months after D-Day
1 year after D-Day
Two Years Later
Four Years Later
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 398
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 398
No guarentees, only actions.

Make your boundaries clear.

Express what you want and POJA it.

Make an appointment with the Harley's. I wrecked a large portion of our savings on it but was very worth it. No other counselor (out of 3) did as much for us.

MB works if both people follow it. If anyone honestly sat down to pick something in MB and tried to think why they shouldn't have to follow it, I don't know how you could get very far. It's all common sense really.

Is your marriage as important as the vows you said at the wedding indicated? Then there is nothing in MB that should be "too hard."


Lifelong recovery never ends.

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 306
E
Member
OP Offline
Member
E
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 306
I have heard from mainly BS on this. But I would like to hear from the FWS. I would like to hear their point of view as to why they "think" they will not stray again. What drives them to steer clear of cheating on their spouses.




From a BS perspective I agree that IF my WH strays again he is gone. What makes recovery of the M hard for me is the constant pain. Although I love my husband very much, if I had walked away after D-day, I feel like I would be in less pain because I feel like I could have left the betrayal behind when I walked away. By choosing to stay, I now have to work through the betrayal instead of burying it and going on with my life. So like other BS have posted, I know I will be ok without my WH. That is not where my issue is. WH was trying to get me out of the blues yesterday and asked me what I was more afraid of: losing him to death or losing him to an A. I don't think he expected the answer he got: losing him to another A.


Me - BS
Him - WS
Discovery 3/26/10
NC letter mailed 5/27/10
NC letter recieved 5/29/10
My Thread

Recovery may not be an option. Seriously looking a plan B/D
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 373
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 373
Okay I will try.

I didn't write sooner because I can't say for sure. Not that I have any intention of ever doing that again but if you had asked me years ago, I would never have imagined cheating ever...I had no tolerance for it...for any reason.

I guess I can say the difference now is, I see the slippery slope for what it is. I can recognize the signs. The dangers of a person saying they will NEVER do something is that they have yet to be put in that situation. Prior to my A, I was propositioned many times and I never gave in. My A was primarily conducted over the internet so I guess I felt it was "safe." My OM was far away, another "safety net." The problem is because of these barriers, I didn't stop myself at the warning signs as I had been conditioned to do with person to person contacts. A friend even suggested I was treading on dangerous ground and I laughed...how absurd!

The difference is now I know. I do not socialize online, I do not allow myself to be alone with members of the opposite sex, I do not "harmlessly flirt." EVER.

Will I ever do it again? I guess there are no absolutes; however, knowing what I know now, it would have to be a conscious decision each step of the way. I am not "compartmentalizing" or dismissing my feelings any longer. I acknowledge what Dr. Harely says that everyone is preconditioned to an A given the right set of circumstances. The thing is, you don't know what they are until you are in them. With EP's in place, I will avoid (as much as humanly possible) all circumstances that COULD lead to another A...even if I don't think it likely, because, let's face it, I didn't think it likely to begin with.....

God Bless

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
I have heard from mainly BS on this. But I would like to hear from the FWS. I would like to hear their point of view as to why they "think" they will not stray again. What drives them to steer clear of cheating on their spouses.

Eluna,

It's all a matter of extraordinary precautions - that is true for ALL people, not just those who were once wayward. See, I could never make the promise that I could resist temptation [human will power is VERY unreliable], but what I can do and have done is make the promise to myself as well as to Mr. W that I will never place myself in temptation's way again. EVER. And it has become second nature to me.

For example, we had a neighborhood party on Saturday, there were port-a-johns there, but YUCK, right? stickout Anyway, one of the men offered to let me use their bathroom - their home was much, much closer than ours was - without missing a beat or even having it register as to why I was doing it, I said, "Mr. W, come with me please", and he did...I would never put myself alone in a situation like that, I'd sooner use the port-a-john, or walk the long walk back to our house. It might seem like a very little thing, but it's the little things that count - temptation many times lies in the little things...We do things like either share email accounts or the ones that are not shared are linked together...And as has already been pointed out, all of our free time is spent together, and it's so enjoyable that way - Our marriage thrives because of that - I could not be more grateful for the life we have together - it is a wonderful thing.

Eluna, have you and your husband considered doing the MB online program? I strongly believe that really learning and applying the MB program in it's entirety is the key to a happy, successful and protected marriage.

Mrs. W






FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 101
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 101
You've heard that there are absolutely no guarantees that it could happen again. There are no guarantees of anything in life. There are no guarantees that you yourself will not have an A.

There are several incentives for me not to return to my wayward ways.
1. Fear of losing my M and the love of my H. When my H left me after Dday, my life felt completely empty. As a mother, I can't say that my life felt like it was without purpose. But, I was faced with how lonely life without my H was going to be.
2. Not wanting to hurt my H again. I dealt the most painful blow I could to my H. The pain was unbearable for him and subsequently has become for me. Do you think you could cut someone's limbs off while they are awake? I couldn't. If I had known that having the A would inflict that much pain, perhpas I would have held myself to higher standards and boundaries.
3. Not wanting to be a piece of trash. Pre-A I had no boundaries about my physical behavior. I did not value my body or consider it a special gift reserved strictly for my H. Now I do. I will not behave like trash again because I know in my heart that I am not trash.
4. Ok - here is one incentive for me to not have an A that could be taken as "ugly" but it is something I feel nonetheless. I will not put myself in a position of being judged negatively again. The ultimate prize is a loving M and my H's love. But a side benefit is being able know that your actions have been correct and blameless. I have always HATED being criticized. Having an A made me a target for much deserved, harsh criticism. Never again.


FWW me - 35, BH - 50, 5 kids total (blended fam)
Dday - 1/29/2010, Exposure & NC same day
Recovering slowly
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 101
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 101
Eluna . . . .

I wrote my "reasons" above because I rarely post and just started speaking what was on my mind. Maybe I didn't tailor it well to your sitch. But hopefully you can read my reasons and see if any of them might apply to your H.

But here is one other thing . . . . I very often read posts from BS's where their WS is not doing everything by the MB playbook and also not doing everything that the BS needs for recovery. Instead of spending a lot of time dwelling on the scary unknow, focus on what you know to be true.

Is your H doing what is precribed by Steve H? If not, what has he resisted. Focus on that . . .

Is your H doing EVERYTHING that you have asked of him for recovery? If not, what has he resisted. Focus on that . . .

Instead of sitting around wondering "what if", determine what behaviors you would change TODAY in your H and work on those. If you can't think of any, then it should give you a little bit of comfort.


FWW me - 35, BH - 50, 5 kids total (blended fam)
Dday - 1/29/2010, Exposure & NC same day
Recovering slowly
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 398
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 398
Wow allnotlost, that was amazing.

Going to ask my WW to check this thread out, maybe she will have something for you.

Even as a BS though I feel I can say this:

You could have walked away, but that wouldn't have neccesarily fixed anything. Affairs don't usually happen to 2 people in love, and jennifer / harleys state WE are responsible for how our spouse feels about us.

Taking your WH back is one decision, does he stay or go? You chose. The second half of that decision to give a 2nd chance is to learn how to be a better spouse and not allow an enviroment in your marriage that leaves the possibility of an affair. An affair is always the Waywards fault, but the enviroment it was possible belongs to both spouses.

Walking away from the M might have left you thinking "I was good, its all his fault for cheating" and it IS his fault for cheating, but you are both responsible for the bad marriage it happened in.

This is something that helps me. I have learned how to be a great husband, and I am working with my WW to practice it and get better at it every day. I can trust she won't cheat on me in part because I am going to be the best BT she could ever want. We are building a good and strong marriage and leaving behind the flawed one we started with.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 987
V
Member
Offline
Member
V
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 987
Eluna, I get the sense that you're looking for a silver bullet here. I'm sorry to say, there isn't one. (Believe me, if there were, I'd have gotten my grubby little mitts on it already!)

There are no guarantees.

There is no switch you mentally flip, no safety for the trigger.

There are actions you take to minimize potential risks. There are EPs, there is UA time, there is POJA, etc.

There are consequences that may help the FWS think twice. There's knowing they are living on borrowed time if they enter into infidelity again, there are the negative assessments leveled against them by themselves and others regarding their wayward behavior.

There are the actions of a truly repentant FWS, and the manifestations of just how much they "get it."

With all of those safeguards, though, you are still left at the end of the day with this: risk. And you know what? That's true for any relationship. Since you can only control yourself, you are trusting and hoping and risking that the SO, (be it a S, a FBS, a FWS, etc.), will guard you and your feelings, will protect you and your M above all else.

Certainly the risk seems more significant when you are laying it in the hands of a (F)WS. But, regardless, you have no guarantee. There aren't any. You just take the tools you have and utilize them to the best of your ability.

Last edited by Mrs_Vanilla; 11/02/10 01:22 PM. Reason: removed excess

Me - 30 (FWW)
H - 30 (BH)
DSx2
D-day: 2008
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 23
N
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
N
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 23
How do I know that I wont have another A? I don't But I do know how to avoid one.My BS and I have set rules and my life is a open book to him. When I'm at we keep in contact and when were home we make sure we get UA in nomatter what.

I do know that I would avoid everything to make sure I NEVER hurt and destroy my husband again!!!!!!!!!!!


Me: FWW 31
Him: BH 32 (HeadHeldHigh)
DDs: 3, 10, 12
M: 11 years
PA: 1/26/10-2/6/10
D-Day 08/28/10
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 306
E
Member
OP Offline
Member
E
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 306
Thank you for your responses. I am beginning to see that watching your BS go through the trauma and pain of dealing with the realities of an A has become an incentive to not want to repeat an A.


I am also seeing a pattern that seems to suggest to me that watching your spouse suffer through that pain was much worse than most WS anticipated.

Does this sound correct?


I guess in someways I am looking not for a silver bullet (although lets face it that would be great), so much as a measurement as to whether my WH is truly trying to be a FWH. I no longer trust my heart or eyes to provide the truth, so I am looking for steeping stones to measure the actions instead.

Thanks for your responses again.


Me - BS
Him - WS
Discovery 3/26/10
NC letter mailed 5/27/10
NC letter recieved 5/29/10
My Thread

Recovery may not be an option. Seriously looking a plan B/D
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 634
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 634
Eluna,

Does your FWH have a list of EP's and is he following it? Is he completely open and transparent with everything (ie. cell phone, computer, etc.)? Do you always know his whereabouts? Does he keep you informed about his schedule at all times?

If you answered 'yes' to all of these then it's a great start. As others have said, there are no guarantees in life.

But, if you start to see him slipping on some of these things in the future and can no longer answer 'yes' to all of them then you may have cause for concern.

This event has changed you forever. You will always be more alert. You will always see the red flags for what they really are and not dismiss them. You will do your best to protect your heart at all costs. It's what us BS's have to do. It is now a survival instinct. Trust yourself enough to know that you are far more aware then you ever were before and you will see the signs.

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123
Likes: 1
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,123
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by ElunaInNC
Thank you for your responses. I am beginning to see that watching your BS go through the trauma and pain of dealing with the realities of an A has become an incentive to not want to repeat an A.


I am also seeing a pattern that seems to suggest to me that watching your spouse suffer through that pain was much worse than most WS anticipated.

Does this sound correct?


I guess in someways I am looking not for a silver bullet (although lets face it that would be great), so much as a measurement as to whether my WH is truly trying to be a FWH. I no longer trust my heart or eyes to provide the truth, so I am looking for steeping stones to measure the actions instead.

Thanks for your responses again.


Where I surprise myself, is in my own sympathy for my FWW.

She made the choice. She hurt me, and she hurt herself. I don't enjoy seeing her hurt, even if it was from her own decision. I can't even imagine what it must be like.

"It is a painful thing to look at your own trouble and know that you yourself and noone else has made it."

Yes, I made some decisions and carried out some actions that were a detriment to our marriage, but she made some decisions and carried out actions which had no possible other outcome than to destroy our marriage.

That's a heavy responsibility!


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,254 guests, and 50 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5