Around this time last year, I had discovered my partner had been flirting through emails with a woman at an account(he is in sales). Within the emails I discovered they had met for lunch. When I confronted him, he admitted to what I found, but stated that they never even kissed, that after the lunch, he finally asked himself, wth am I doing and started thinking about me. He told me he had stopped any behavior towards her right after their lunch, but at the time I had found out, that account was still part of his territory. I was very upset(our son was not even 4 months old and I was still struggling through PPD) but tried to be reasonable. My boundaries were immediately going to the therapist(which he had to set up) to see where we were and how to mend, as well as he had to break all contact with this account immediately. He set the appointment immediately and within a couple of days, had the account transferred to another associate. We went for a short while, and he did some of the work with me, but it tapered after a few months and admittedly, I started to resent the fact that I was the only one scheduling our 'dat time', so I quit doing it altogether, telling him if he chose not to schedule it, then I guess it wasn't happening anymore.

So, now, a year later, I still have this gnawing desire to call the OW and see what she says....and this came up just since he's started his new job(please refer to my post in 101). I know things are bad in our relationship overall, but when we talk about it, he clearly tells me he wants to be here and if he didn't, he would have left long ago. I still feel a strong love fo him, despit the various hurts, struggles, and dishonesty over our relationship. He tells me the same and says despite how bad it's been, he just doesn't want to be with anyone else.

Plus, I am very aware of how damaged I am from my first marriage(full of deceit, manipulation, emotional abuse, cheating on H's part)and my childhood, so I am worried I am creating things that aren't there now. I'm seriously starting to have a self confidence problem about this; like I'm just too damaged to function in the healthy relationship I want so very much to be a part of.

I want to be happy and so does he, but we're both making each other miserable....does anyone have any information to help?

Yeah.
There is a ton of FREE information all over this site.
Begin by reading THE BASIC CONCEPTS (see link in the red bar across top of every page) .... and ask specific questions about the concepts.
It's not a good idea to ask for help before you at least have a basic understanding of what the concepts involve.

NOT actually being married is a big issue.

Nevertheless ... focus on the CONCEPTS instead of your perception of being a "damaged" woman.
Poking into your past won't help you.
Behavioral modification today, based on the CONCEPTS. will be helpful.

Good luck.

READ THIS TOO ....

LINK to thread for the new betrayed spouses

Thank you, especially in addressing my perception.
I haven't reviewed most of the pages since I first found out about his, I don't really know what to label it, last year I will get to reading now...hopefully my sig can help with some additional info...I know this is a marriage site, but our lifestyle has been much like if we had been married. It may be a stupid question, but is it really a big issue? The only issue I see with it now is in the present; we have set our date for October of next year and I have the feeling that it just somehow won't happen....when did I turn into such a pessimist??

I think I've got a lot of reading to do....be back with questions soon...

You're raising a bunch of kids, aren't you?
Will you set an example of a true commitment, marriage, or not?

Marriage is more than a license.
But, the license is important.
Will you let your kids drive(when they are old enough) without the legal documents like a learner permit or a driver license? probably not.

Living together without a legal marriage, especially with kids, and for a long time, sets up what Dr Harley refers to as a "renter mentality". Marriage is a "buyer mentality". It's not that important for YOU at the moment, but it is VERY important in the long term.

Right now, learn the basics.

The mentality as stated above, is a clear example of a "renter mentality" .... which is typical of live-together-without-marriage situations.

Renters stay as long as it is working for them.

Here's a quote from one of Dr Harley's books:

Either you commit to marriage or you don't. You two are not married. Technically, your fiancee is free to play the field.

Committing to marriage is much more than picking out which gown to wear down the aisle or whose house you'll live in after the ceremony. It is a sacred vow to forsake all others. Neither of you agreed before God and your community to do that. What you DID do was agree to co-habitate. No vows have been broken.

So what do I do now? When we discovered I was pregnant, I specifically told him not to ask me to marry him until he knew he wanted to be with me for me, not just because we were bringing a child into the world. He asked me to marry him 2 months after I found out about the OW and we've been pushing the date back further due to finances. I am extremely unhappy with being unmarried, and with children, but wanted to be sure I wasn't getting married for the wrong reasons a second time. In reality, I'm scared to get married to him because I feel like I'm looking through mud and I can't tell if he's who I logically and lovingly believe he is, or if my fears are right. I'm here because I want to have a healthy fulfilling marriage, and while we aren't married, it is still our plan to get married. We do have children, and yes, on the outside we may be 'playing house', but we've struggled through many things together and continued to keep our family together because we both wanted it. We've had many talks about where things aren't working, and he's always receptive. It just isn't consistent or permanent. I was really down last night and tried to explain to him that I can't function having my needs unmet to such an extreme level. We talked about the overall picture of where we've been for the last 2 years nowI pointed out how he did nothing for our anniversary or my birthday this year, and he actually had the nerve to say to me,"You're still hung up on that?"

But honestly, I'm more scared than ever after reading Dr. Hartley's explanation of a 'renter'....I feel lost! OMgosh, I really don't want to walk away from him but I don't have a clue what to do...I can't bear the thought of trying to make it with 3 children and school and working full time either, but I'm scared this is all he's willing to do is talk without making the changes...am I settling? I thought I was coming here to build skills with him and work towards having a successful marriage with him...start on the right track, but now I'm more muddled than ever! I have been operating from the belief that as long as we both show up and are willing to put in the work, we can be successful together...am I not seeing this clearly?

One thing I wouldn't do right now is talk about getting married. Your relationship is in no condition to jump into a commitment like that.

You've approached this backwards. Here's what you did:

You had sex with someone you weren't committed to. The result was a pregnancy. You didn't want to marry the person you were not committed to just because you were pregnant by him.

This all says "NO COMMITMENT."

Then you said:


But immediately back it up with:


This all says "NO COMMITMENT."

How are your plans working for you?



What's the going rate for a marriage license and a justice of the peace these days, $100? $200? Are you destitute?

I'm not trying to beat you up, km. I'm saying your words and your actions are contradictory.

Anyhoo. Start reading the articles on here about affair-proofing marriages. I'm not saying it's a good or bad idea to remain with your boyfriend. Either way, the info on this site will help you learn the mechanics of forming and maintaining a healthy, affair-free marriage, whether it's with your boyfriend or some other (possibly better-suited) person.

Just about every relationship starts out as a "renter-renter". It's called DATING. Some relationships then mature into "buyer-buyer" and the marriage is mutually fulfilling. And, some marriages do not.

This "buyer-buyer" usually does not happen if the couple is co-habitating and pretending they are "the same as", or "as good as" ~~~> married. They are functioning under a falsehood.

Some really good marriages crumble apart when the former "buyer" has an affair and then becomes a "freeloader". It is hell when a faithful spouse finds herself/his self married to a freeloader.






Just showing up is not good enough. Sorry.
Some people show up for work every day, and are crap at their jobs.

You need to acquire the tools of a healthy relationship.
YOU need to acquire the tools. Did you notice that the focus is on YOU right now?
That's because YOU are the one who is here, asking questions.
You can only change yourself. It is impossible for you to make another adult change against their will.
But, in case you do not know this .... here is something very interesting.
Once you change, and become a woman you can feel proud of, he either catches up, or he doesn't.

Read the concepts.
You have a lot of opportunities here to acquire the tools to change for the better.

Nice to see you back, Pep. Your words of wisdom and downright common sense are a breath of fresh air.

So, your posts yesterday gave me a lot to think about...and it wasn't fun, but it needed to be done. In truth, I didn't really commit until I was pregnant; I was scared out of my wits that the same hurts I experienced in my marriage(as a side note, can I just say, holy cow!! I had no idea that there was a term "gaslighting" for the garbage I endured!!!) would eventually materialize in this relationship, so one foot was always on the threshold, so to speak. When he came home from work last night, we talked, and it was probably more productive than I could have imagined. I told him that I realised I haven't really been in this, and he admitted the same. I told him that I am excited about all of the information here and I want to learn these skills, preferably together. I told him that I want to stop 'talking wedding' and re-focus on being in a committed relationship...that without being in a real relationship together, there's no point for us to stay together. I told him I'm scared a lot because he talks with me but there's no action, and I told him I don't want to be scared. I shared the 'renter vs. buyer' info and told him I'm done with not valuing myself, or what I think we have, enough to ask for a true commitment, and give one. I want to give him the love I have for him, and I want to be his wife.

He talked a lot too. He told me that he hasn't felt like he has a voice for a while and he's done feeling that way. He admits he's not been committed to me either, and agrees that it shifted when I was pregnant. But, he also told me that he is still in love with me, and he wants to be my husband. He's interested in following MB together. Neither of us are sure how we are going to do this...it seems like every where we turn there is a 'fire' to put out, but I think this is a good start. We both agree that we want to work towards our goal, which ultimately is a strong and healthy marriage to each other. I know we've started this backwards, but I do believe we are moving in the right direction now, of course, time and actions will tell!

We went through the LB and Instincts vs. Habits together last night, and talked about both this am. We are still catching up financially, but by the end of November, we want to have bought at least one of the home study courses.

I really appreciate the honesty in which you gave your opinions; it was hard to hear, but it helped. I hope it's ok if I continue to post; there is a lot of information an dknowledge and I most definitely want to seize the moment to grow.

Please do continue to post and let us help you build towards your M. It sounds like you're both on the right track!

kneaded,

I think you are realizing something very fundamental. Good relationships turn into good marriages IF there is good communications. You saw evidence of that last night.

Often folks find it hard to discuss their fears, and their needs with someone they actually love and respect. If you and your SO will read a small section or one article here a night and discuss it, I believe it will help you open up your communications.

The needs one is very important. I personally think for you two the love busters articles would be most helpful. the deadly of the love busters is the disrespectfull judgement, DJ. I suspect you are doing that when you discuss your SO and his client. It could be something but more than likely it was a client interaction between two people that were somewhat attracted to one another. People are attracted to many people, but committed people recognize this, and use their boundaries to protect their spouse and themselves.

Another one I think that would be good for the both of you to read especially since you are both in the "renting" phase is Harley's four rules for a good marriage. Read them and discuss what you think they mean to you. Also start to discuss what an ideal marriage would mean to each of you. He may want sex, SF, as a top need, you might want safety and security as yours. Nothing wrong with that, but how would you two plan to address those needs. (Are you seeing why the needs section would be important?)

Finally, there is a LOT of information here. It seems very simple, but it will take time for it to truly sink in for either of you. Give yourselves some time and have patience. Everyone wants to solve the problem RIGHT NOW, but...

Go back to Pep's posts to you. Do you see that the transistion from renter to buyer is one of changing perspetives? It is. Neither of you need to change, but your perspectives need to change and that often takes time. Give yourself the time.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks mb, I'll definitely keep posting! We addressed some issues we've been having with the kids yesterday; beforehand we agreed that he would do the majority of the talking and I would respond to reiterate and back him up. It was hard and it was awesome! In reading through the site, I found the letters Dr. H writes about re: cohabitating before marriage. It seems that the POJA is immediately needed for our situation, so I plan on sharing the info with him re: that tonight and see if he's willing to commit to implementing that now.

@JL, thanks for adding your wisdom! I wanted to clarify re the situation with the OW; I found emails with him saying things like,"looking forward to seeing your pretty face...I could use the pick-me-up..."among other flirtatious interactions complete with him pursuing and following through with a non-business lunch. He admitted that he had been feeling emotionally neglected and sought fulfillment elsewhere.

With that being explained, this site has made me realise that I am not being respectful now when I bring it up, regardless if it's in a moment of me expressing why I'm hurt; I'm w/d LUs big time. I really appreciate the patience reminder....definitely getting daily affirmation that everything is done in God's time, not mine.

My big challenge right now is to keep my focus on what I'm doing, instead of looking ahead and being fearful that this will end with us splitting up.

I'm also feeling very disappointed in myself for the backwards example I/we have given our children on how to begin a lasting marriage....more motivation to make this right so we all win!

I repeat what I wrote earlier:
Nevertheless ... focus on the CONCEPTS instead of your perception of being a "damaged" woman.

Remember one thing, when you start looking forward with fear: you can look forward with confidence just as easily. Pick your emotion and go forward.

oops...thank you for the reminder Pep.

Good point mb, I will definitely focus more on that thought.

We see this all the time.
Particularly in women.
You have a choice of where you direct your thoughts.

Here's a multiple choice question:


Which of the following activities is most likely to improve your romantic relationship?

A. Improving self-esteem.
B. Understanding my past.
C. Worry about the future.
D. Guilt about the past.
E. All of the above.
F. None of the above.