I still desire a better understanding of what happened....the whys? The source of it...the reason for it....all of it. I need to make sense of it. Why did I have to endure such pain? Am I sure that whatever caused it is gone? Or will I always be unsure of when/if it might happen again?

From the very beginning (the first week after the A-bomb and he was back, claiming it was over),....we talked, he claimed it was her interest in him and similar sports interests that they shared that sparked it for him,...and he said he knew it was mostly "fantasy" and just flirtatious flattery he enjoyed about it. But, after that, (giving her a NC letter, then leaving the next day to be with her), he continued to pursue it, knowing full well that it hurt me....now claiming (in hindsight) he didn't think they would last, didn't have that much in common, knew it was superficial and not deeply felt like he says it is with me.......yet he went so far as to cross absolute boundaries I spelled out about it,...knowing full well that my filing for divorce was based on his choice to pursue an extra-marital affair...yet, still wanting, somehow, for me to be "okay" with it or to show more wanting to fight for him. How can one fight for something that walks away from them? Someone who is clearly saying I don't want you....but asking do you still want me? How much do you want me? The whole highest bidder thing.

He says, he kept at it with her and all the lies because he feared I wouldn't want him back, ...felt worthless to me,...unwanted by me..... * shaking head *......what was he really giving me to want, exactly? All the while, he says he felt guilty lying to me,....but did it anyway,......told her things (ILYs, future plans, wait for me, always love you, etc.) he claims were lies to keep her around as a "safety" in-case I didn't want to keep him ... and also, partly, because she wouldn't let up with always wanting assurances from him...(ugh! talk about a Catch 22).

I just have so many why's that I don't feel have been adequately addressed by him. It seems to point to his desire to be wanted and desired and also the over-the-top, aggressive passion she fed him (desperate housewife syndrome), that made him feel needed and worth something to her....yet, he couldn't see that we/I were needing him, too?! How is it possible to prevent his impulsive, erratic, destructive, behavior in the future if there isn't any concrete knowledge of it or knowing that he's "better" with how he feels about himself,...or in his understanding that he is needed, wanted by me....just not in the same way as it was in the affair?

Lately, I've found myself struggling with his want for aggressive....passion,...wanton woman stuff....like he got in the affair. Sort of degrading,...and not very connected-cozy -- feels really weird objectifying him (or he me). I prefer the comfortable, connected (deeper feeling, vulnerable, yet confident stuff)...mutual interest...balanced give and take, and not so aggressive or "gotta have you".

I also have trouble with his desire for the vanity pleas. I'll tell him he looks good, give him affection,....but I'm not gunna go all gushy school girl over his looks (like OW did). I think to tell someone they are gorgeous or hot is a major turn off. It seems shallow. I am attractive for my age and look much younger than my years -- I get the "hot girl free drinks" and often get compliments from guys,....I'm flattered, but I also just think it's creepy. There's so much more to a person than their looks. However, WH is feeling middle-aged (often claimed during the A, he thought he was having a midlife crisis), feels he isn't good-looking, no longer youthful looking...(and...he's made several comments that indicate he's very jealous of my seeming youthfulness and the attention I receive). You'd think, as a guy, you'd see having an attractive wife to be an ego boost. So, what does he do?...he cheats on me with a married woman 7 years younger than me (whom he claims he doesn't think is as attractive as me). But, still, it's as if he was doing it to spite me or something. I also think there's a power trip in there...he stole me away from my BF of 8yrs, 19yrs ago. Similar scenario -- his OW wanted out of her marriage, just like I wanted out of my prev relationship. Grrr. This little bit ticks me off. Like he loves to conquer (winning another man's woman) or something and, perhaps, he saw me no longer a conquest for him. Honestly,...I think the primary reason he came back was he couldn't stand the thought of someone else being with me. It's one of the things he told me, recently that really bothered him about getting a divorce. Regardless,...the anger about the attention I receive for my looks (which I don't even care for) appears to be a big factor in this....as well as his own desire to be looked upon as attractive and wanted in that way...a physical way.

How do you resolve such an issue?

Daisy you are going to struggle...that is the nature of the beast. You will also drive yourself nuts trying to make sense out of insanity. The simple reason your WH cheated is because he wanted to. He was living in lalaland not thinking about you at all...that is a hard and painful truth for a BS to accept. His ego stroking, desire of some strange or whatever it was that he got from OP was more important than anything else.

I don't think there is anything wrong with telling a person they are gorgeous. I don't care for the word "hot" either but most people like a nice compliment. You may have to give a little extra outside your comfort zone. If your WH wants you to go on and on and on about his looks that is another story IMO.

You've had 3 Ddays and the latest is very recent. Don't be so hard on yourself. What is your WH doing to safeguard your M?

Thanks, Black_raven,..yes,....it IS hard to accept. * sigh *

What is he doing (or not doing)? He's changed his ph#, gave me his gmail and FB passwords (actually, I had those before DD3), checks in with me more, shows me if she contacts him (and she has, but he/we refuse to reply), he's been more "honest" about stuff (but, it seems it's only if I instigate a Q/A) -- that needs more work --- he claims it's just his way, too hard for him to "open up" -- ugh!, he understands my needs (but, not doing a lot to fill them -- that's another thread)....he's willing to spend undivided time with me, wants me to want him and spend time with him, naturally. I seem to be more of the action person, taking initiative, trying to mix things up, make things different,...more spontaneous and new-ish. Wish he'd do more of that.

He drones on about how worried he is that I will never trust him again. Not much different than what he was telling me after DD1. I tell him it has everything to do with what he shows me,...consistently,...over time. Again, that's why I keep at wanting to resolve the primary issues about the causes for the affair. I can't be OW, acting like some teenage dream girl...there's just no way! All the good stuff he thinks he got out of the A just wasn't real...and has a lot to do with his self-esteem getting boosted artificially by lalaland fog. Even he admits to this (and did before, during, and after the A). Not much I can do about that besides not be all BS about it (and keep my mouth shut on anything that might bring him down -- tsk). And, yet (my taker talking) I'm the one that is the broken one in this deal,...not him. Why should I be the one to dote on him and his self-esteem if he's not willing to have a backbone and "be the man"...striding confidently into this clean up project with the same gusto as I am? I wasn't the one who left,...or lied,...who broke our vows or commitment....or gave myself (and gifts and time) to someone else,...or betrayed the person(s) who actually mean something,...or neglected anyone. All I do is give, give, give to this guy. Where did it get me but burned? Right. Exactly.

Daisy, sorry, long post incoming....

Have you read everything on this site? Have you read His Needs, Her Needs; Surviving and Affair; Fall in Love Stay in Love; or any other Harley books? Are you counseling with Steve or Jennifer? If so, is your WH doing so with you?

If you havent done any of these things, I would highly recommend them.

Especially starting counseling with one of the Harleys, and getting your WH to do it with you.

To respond to your post:

Affairs. Affairs happen because a person has poor boundaries. They happen in an "affair enviroment." Basically, your marriage before this affair was not "good." Two people in love with eachother do not cheat on eachother.

You are responsible for how your Spouse feels about you. Your actions cause them to feel happy or unhappy, and if you consistently make them feel happy, then their emotions trigger Romantic Love which encourages them to want to be around you.

Here is the point.

Your WH is responsible for his poor boundaries that allowed him to Cheat. HE is SOLELY responsible for his affair. You are not responsible for it at all, he did it. Its his poor boundaries that allowed him to let this OW meet his unmet needs, and have an affair with her.

The enviroment of your marriage, where either or both of you had unment needs is BOTH of your fault.

So, when he cheated you had a choice. Take him back or kick him out. You have chosen "Take Him Back." That is neither a "good" or "bad" decision neccesarily, it is your decision. However, since you have decided to take him back, you need to understand that this does NOT mean back to the Same old Same old.

You dont want that unhappy marriage back. If you think it was a happy marriage, thats good, he was obviously meeting your needs, but you werent meeting his or he wouldnt have been available to someone else to meet those needs.

Since you are taking him back, you both need to acknowledge your part in creating the marital enviroment that allowed an affair. You both need to study up on Marriage Builders, and build yourself a strong marriage.

You guys need to each identify your own top Emotional Needs. You need to identify what actions best fulfill those ENs. Then you need to effectively communicate this information to your spouse. Last, you need to honestly and openly help eachother and train eachother to become experts at meeting eachothers needs.

Do not judge needs, accept them and meet them.

For instance, it seems one of your WH's top 5 needs might be Admiration (typically in the top 5 for men according to Dr. Harley anyway). Rather than state "I am NOT going to do that..." instead ask your WH what he would like you to do to meet that need. If it is indeed something you refuse to do, then you and your WH need to "POJA" (Policy of Joint Agreement), or, Negotiate till you reach a solution you can agree on. Somehow, you two need to find a way to meet his need that is acceptable to both of you.

It is a NEED that he has. He needs it fulfilled or he will be vulnerable to the next person that comes along and fulfills it.

At marriage, you promised to take care of eachother. He is relying on you to meet his needs. He needs to be able to trust that you are willing to care for his needs.

All of this applies on the flip side to you as well. He needs to know your needs, how you would like them met, and needs to meet them. He needs to show you that he can be trusted to take care of you.

You both need to identify any Love Busters and get rid of them. I suggest if you have problems where you are mad at your WH, come on here, and post about it and get feed back. Often, anger is a sign that your "Taker" isnt getting what they want, and if you respond while angry, often your Taker is in control of that response and it will come out as a Love Buster.

As far as whether he can see if you need him or not, that is entirely dependant on your expressing it and his recieving and understanding it. If you are unsure if he knows how much you need and want him, you should ask him.

For now as well, I would definately continue to snoop and ensure NC. Apparently NC has been broken several times, so you need to be a watchful hawk monitoring him.

Have him post on here and the Vets can help him with things like realizing that your checking on him is a GREAT thing for BOTH of you.

As long as you find nothing, its building trust for him to you, it helps remind him to be vigilant by reminding him that you are watching, and if you DO find something it allows you to take action. No one loses.

Summary: Get VERY familiar with the material here at MB. Tell your husband as a condition of reconcilliation, he needs to participate in this. Explain it by acknowledging that he was unhappy in the marriage prior to the Affair, and that you want to BUILD A BETTER MARRIAGE, WITH HIM, TOGETHER. Dont say "We need to fix you" but rather, "WE need to BUILD A BETTER MARRIAGE TOGETHER." See the difference?

Hoping the best for both of you.

How is it the OW is still able to contact him? This won't do. Is she married? Have a boyfriend? Do they work together?

Every attempt at contact is a trigger. How is she doing this?

Attempted contact can reset withdrawal.

Extraordinary Precautions are supposed to make contact as close to impossible as you can. Every attempted contact should get a new EP to prevent it from occuring again.

New phone number, email address, block POSOWs phone # and email addresses, change jobs/transfer, move accross the country...

Whatever it takes but you can't just Hope for NC. The affair proved that WH has boundaries and can't be trusted to keep himself inline. Even people that haven't had an A should have some basic EPs in place to prevent one from ever occuring.

So, my other post, still good stuff, but lick this NC and EPs thing first as priority one, then do the rest.

And tons of thanks to mb for catching that... huge thing there...

Thanks for the replies.

I agree,...this forum is especially good for letting my ANGER and angst out. And, BOY, do I have it at times! Especially, because he is so closed up, still. My radar/intuition goes off,..and I've learned to trust it this year,...it's often spot on. And, I believe he is still very protective about his TRUE feelings regarding the OW and about how he feels about me/us,...trying to protect me, or whatever. I dunno. OW is married and living with her H since May (while the affair was still going on, and OWH has lashed out at him several times via email and ph). She likes to taunt them both, it seems. WH has often said nasty things about her.,...even while the affair was STILL going on. Again,...probably just what he thinks I wanna hear. I never really know. He is an habitual people pleaser,...but is dishonest about it...often saying only what he thinks will appease me. Wish he could overcome this and just be honest. I'm wanting new,....and different,...and that one is a biggie for me. O&H/friendship-companionship/teamwork/mutual interests/affection/SF are my top EN's. A lot of his are more all about him,...and he admits to being really selfish and needy. Problem with that is I often feel taken advantage of...and we seem to fall into the mom-child thing. Hate it! I've never been comfortable tending to everybody's needs, preferences, feelings, and having to put myself last. Who is? Yet, I keep getting stuck there,...even though I have said I want more support,...I want more stepping up and helping out,...more attention on me and us. Again,...a Catch 22, being that his A was all about him getting lavished with doting and affection without the real-life hassles or feeling inadequate by his "failings", disengagement,...blah, blah, blah.

I have said to him, throughout this,...that the affair was my wake up call. I was ok with things prior to this (and he, actually TOLD me he was ok with our marriage whenever I brought up things in the past I was unhappy with, ..and he would try to be "good" or "better"...and eventually gave up). Now, I'm saying to him,....if you wanna be back (in our separation, he was begging to come back home, didn't want a divorce...of course, he was STILL lying to me then, keeping her his scapegoat!), I told him, I have ground rules now,...and I have to have something to want --- and I have no room in my life for people who lie, cheat or steal from me...and abuse my loyalties and generosity. I value me, I value my kids, I value my family,...and I value my H if he values himself and our marriage with the same. Yes, I want a strong family, I want a happy/mutual/open relationship....but, I won't put up with his crap just to have him back. Not now. I'm drawing a line in the sand. He says he wants me to want him and is willing to do what he has to (but fears his "weaknesses" and thinks it'll never be enough), because he still really wants me, has always wanted me (and hates the idea of me or the kids being with anybody else....and doesn't want to lose his dignity or have the divorce wound around his neck)...but, I refuse to put up with anymore unfairness, selfishness, or lack of commitment in this relationship. It's just not worth it to me to put myself through that, anymore. I'm not gunna be a passive doormat about it,...and he knows that. The Just Compensation (with the highest bidder stuff and the repeated lying) is WAY overdue. However, I also know that my anger about it will only bite me if I can't control it. So,...firm,...neutral as possible,...but firm... about where my boundaries are. He knows the consequences.

So,...regarding his weaknesses he talks about. I see it this way....I made a cake that he really, really wants,... I'm selling the heck out it,...and it still smells wonderful to him....yet he's still crawling on the floor saying he wants it. I do not plan on bringing him a piece, he has to stand up and WALK to it, and I will gladly serve it to him on a plate and hand it to him,...but he has to do the work to get there. I'm encouraging him. I'm letting him know I'm saving the cake for him, and him alone,...and don't plan to give it to someone else unless he voluntarily forfeits it.

That's not to say we haven't had the WE conversation. It's been my focus for some time when WE talk,...that it's us/we,...and not just him. However, the actual cause/source of the affair was, indeed, all about HIS weaknesses. If I cushion him, make him happy,...it's too easy. He likes the chase,...the thrill of the conquer,...feeling like he's the hero (her situation gave him a "savior" feeling). Yet, he left all the hard stuff for me to do. If I stood back and let him do it,...I'd get crumbs. I was appreciative,..but not ecstatic about it, because it was crumbs. See?

To answer the first entry. Yes, we have read up and shared our EN's, LB's. Though, I do not believe him to have been completely honest with me about his. He was MUCH too nice,...having little, if any, cause in his to say I did anything wrong in filling his needs (or much L-busting) prior to the affair (claims it was all him wanting a thrill of a chase and the gushing school girl/secretive/unpredictability he got from the A), and he tells me I was "perfection"..."too good"...and he just didn't feel worthy of me (felt low about himself, but, he says it was all him and how he felt about himself,...nothing I could have done about that). Again,...where do you go from there?

We have been to MC, which has taught us better communications,...and understanding of each other's communication styles. That's about it. Back in May (when I shared with him the MariiageBuilders concept to recovery), he watched the infidelity vid of Dr. Hartley and read on the site all of the infidelity articles and says he was blown away by how accurate it was about it being an addiction. He admitted to being addicted to her and, at the time, claimed to be "done" with the A for good....which was a lie. Again, he kept at saying he was "too weak" and she was persistent, used guilt trips and hung on, kept at it,...and he says he "couldn't resist her". He claims, the addiction feel-goods stopped feeling good, though. Perhaps, it was my Plan A paying off. And, thankfully, his messages did show his desire to get rid of her,...telling her to move on,...but he was also leading her on with..."I'll let you know if I have feelings for my wife again",..."only back for the kids",...."maybe later, in a few years, we can check-in with each other", etc. Ack!

The EP's,....unfortunately, have holes. She has access to his work email and phone (and I cannot see that or have access unless he shares it with me). He says, he was grateful for the couple of times that she DID contact him, bc he COULD show he was being honest and sharing that with me,...so I didn't get twitchy and suspicious thinking he was keeping something from me. The other issue is with S in-law being BF with OW. She CAN have access to other people and his phone number if she really wanted to. Still,...he says (and understands) that I need to be shown that he can be trusted in the event that there is any contact she makes with him. S in-law has been told by both of us to be extra cautious about not having her anywhere we might be together or individually. I still see her friendship with her a huge security breech, knowing full well that they share things with each other that shouldn't be knowledge to OW. Nothing I can do about that, besides let her know we are not "ok" with that.

Though, I know there are loopholes, separate email accounts, a laptop he never brings home, erased history on his ipod Touch, etc... (and he has proven how sneaky he can be),...but, I still plan to be vigilant about snooping what I can. I don't like to do it, but I have been burned, even while snooping in the past,...and know I need it to link up what he tells me with what I am aware of,...consistently,...as best I can,...and for a while, yet.

He knows I'm on this forum. I haven't asked, but I doubt he'd be willing to write here. He might lurk,...but I haven't seen it.

Thanks for all of your help, advice, ...and "listening" to my venting. I know it's really early for us,...and I haven't given up. I just hope he doesn't and he gets to enjoy the delicious cake with me,...feeding each other off of our spoons,...happy and proud of the fact that we made it,...and the whole challenge was the greatest blessing...and a victory. Gotta a long way to go yet.

btw -- after our DD3 and "last contact" letter to OW and OWH (together), we told them to use our joint email account, and only that one to contact us,....about the outcome of her possible pregnancy at the time (the 2nd of two pregnancy scares). That month came and went, (nervously so)...yet, she proceeded to go under the radar 3x after that. The first one was pleading for his forgiveness (and mine), asking him not to hate her -- he (we) replied, with him stating no more contact, I love and treasure my wife more than ever. The other 2x she used the issue we were having with S in-law being friends with her and causing a family rift situation as a reason to make the contact -- that made me mad! WH wanted to reply to her and cc her H, asking him to keep his wife from bugging us,....but, I convinced him (being that OW seems to be a borderline personality type) that might be a bad idea. She was looking for contact and sympathy and we just have to ignore her at all costs. WH was ok with that, ...mad about her doing that,..but ok with ignoring her.

Sorry this was SO long....

I read something somewhere,...that a love triangle consists of a VICTIM, a RESCUER, and a PERSECUTOR...you have to have all three. The only way to diffuse a triangle is for one of those to step out of the role of being any of those. Tough, when you see yourself (and the other two) as being nearly all three,.....but I'm working on it.

Can his work get him a new email address or block her email address? Did you expose to his work. This not being able to verify NC isn't a good thing.

Sister in law is BF with this OW? Ouch. I hope someone has ideas there, I am hsving trouble imagining my WWs siblings being friends with OM. It blows my mind. Doesn't Sis in law GET IT?? This lady would have ruined her brothers life, his families life, her husbands life, he childrens lives, and so on and so on. Can't believe she wants to be friends with her. What does your WH think about his sis with this in mind?

Your WH may be (and probably is) hiding lots from you. I would suggest not bothering with another counselor. My WW and I went to MC while she was WW and it actually made things worse. Regular marriage counseling is a joke, have Melody Lane tell you about it.

I suggest getting an appointment with jennifer or steve harley and have your husband join you.

You both need to grow from this and build a better marriage where NEITHER of you is sacrificing for the other. POJA means both people are enthusiastic and getting what they want.

Hi Daisy! You have already gotten some great posts. Just a few things to add:

The first yr of R is a very difficult time. It was basically trigger management for me and keeping myself busy with working out, house, kids, MB reading/posting to keep my head from spinning! You also have to keep in mind that if you have had several ddays and FRs, it makes R that much more difficult...

Agreed. This is going to keep you stuck, Daisy. I think Dr Harley's advice (and I think he addressed something similar to this recently on his radio show) would be that you two have NC with your SIL whilst she is friends with OW, at the least keep the contact very very limited and make it very clear that OW is an enemy of your M and anything to do with her is never to be brought up to either of you again. If either of you are friends with SIL on FB, I would think it necessary to delete her in case she has postings/pictures of OW. Again any triggers are going to hinder your recovery so I can't stress this enough...


Again, agreed. Traditional MC is usually damaging to marraige because when spouses are airing their grievances out in front of each other, it usually is just a drain on your LB$ [this is why the Harleys speak to each spouse individually]. Also a lot of conselors focus on the PAST while MB focuses on present & future behavior.

Hang in there and keep posting!

We'll have to look into the thought of a Hartley counseling session. I definitely think it would be the ultimate treatment for what we are in need of.

Yes,...SIL BF with OW is a bad, bad deal. More than I can go into right now. But, just plain bad. WH and I went into a three week ordeal with them wanting to meet with us, talk about it, get an "understanding", so they can be "ok" with it, be okay with her choice to stay friends with her (even though she had outed her during the affair). She kept at why can't we all move past this,..forgive and forget. Ugh! She didn't get it and it went no where but in a bad place for a while The point of the matter is, she chose to cross a boundary for us and it changes our relationship with her and her H (WH's brother). That's just how it has to be. She admitted early on that she was okay with the consequences (more of a brief "hiya" sort of relationship with us than was before). I got angry with her persistence for us to be "ok" with it. But, she has since resigned to things having to be what they are, and claims she will be as respectful of our relationship as she can be,...and sd she was sorry about causing us so much tension because of it. She hated being in the middle with the A starting in her house, with her friend, on more then a few occasions. SIL also knew about it for weeks before I did. WH isn't ok with her keeping her as a friend (at least, he tells me so), nothing we can do about it,...but he DID lay out a few ground rules to her, and asked SIL to be diligent about not having OW anywhere we might run into her on our own or together. Currently, BIL/SIL are living only a mile from us, temporarily....so, that was a biggie. He's also very unhappy that OW and SIL share (have shared) information between them....including OW showing SIL texts and msgs he sent to her,....the stuff OW still holds onto,...and he claims were lies he told her to appease her (bc he was starting to feel it was the only way to get her to stop bugging him,...not a good plan, ...but still). He DID tell OW he misled her and lied to her (he added an apology to that,...prolly not a good idea...oh, well), I'm happy he did that,...otherwise, she would just hold on to all of that "wait for me" stuff. This way, he spelled it out as "I'm done with you -- forever" ...and he did it more than once with her (and once with her H).

A POJA would be a really good next step for us. I've been wanting to, but, for months, he's been in a funk...really depressed (withdrawal), stressed (about several family situations, including the BIL/SIL problem) and I've not felt it was a good time to venture there yet. I need to do more reading up on that and really hash it out with him together on what our plan should be.

Besides my angry ramblings, here...things are feeling much better for us --- day by day. We're talking more (about trivia and interests -- fun, happy stuff). He's is doing more, showing me more,...and I'm appreciative, receptive, and willing.

Thanks for reading my ramblings and giving me the well needed advice.

It's really ironic you mentioned the FB thing. Talk about triggers! That's, actually, what caused me to erupt on SIL and started a huge snowball. Prior to that, I was "fine" with it, but the FB thing made me realize the extent of just how angry I was about it. OW had (being the attention seeker type) posted several pics of her with SIL that got seen by all of our mutual friends....WH and I had OW blocked, so we didn't see it,...but my KIDS DID and that made me royally mad! SIL can't control what OW posts on her wall or when she tags her (was her explanation), but I noticed she continued to keep it up for days. Ugh! WH wrote to SIL, saying that OW knew what she was doing,...and sd he felt OW was making the statement with it; broadcasting "Look, everyone, SIL of my A partner belongs to me and she still loves me and forgives me"...so true. Made me mad, that. Not to mention, OW's family and friends could see it, too. Ugh! So, disrespectful, IMO. I laid into her, asking her to show some respect for us (whether or not we actually see it)...and that OW was making HER look bad. SIL has since given me apologies (tsk--OW wrote me one, too) and says she now understands how out of line it was. Either way,...I'm no longer friends with SIL on FB (and they both have slipped off of FB, pausing their accounts, for now).

There were a lot of harsh words thrown around in the weeks that we had problems with the two of them. BIG blow outs, actually. It's been a bad deal, like I said. But, for now,..things have settled down.

* sigh *

We plan to take t-giving off this year and just spend it as a family...maybe take a trip....and stay clear of the extended family and social stuff for a bit. It really took it's toll on us, in many ways.....lots of family tension from his side going on,..and we just need to reconnect and step away from all of that until we feel more confident,...and he's not feeling so ashamed, etc.

Hi Daisy, glad to hear a semblance of calm has come.

However, I don't think you guys are out of the woods yet. Recovery is hard and can take years. A plan or direction really helps. The Harley's advocate an action based approach. Less on how you feel, the past, or whatever, more on what you are DOING right now. Commonly you will hear "fake it till you make it" on these forums because its true. Act now, the feelings will follow.

As lonjg as you are acting on a good plan. Talk to jennifer or steve for anhour, get a good plan.

If that is not anoption (or really, even it is) read everything on this site, ideally WITH your WH, and come on here for advice.

No one here is a Harley, we are your peers, but there are many vets here who have been through this and they can help.

Perhaps you can start wth what's going on right now. These last several posts seem to venting about the past. That's ok, but what's going on NOW that you can effect and make changes to?

Keep going, good to hear from you.