Hello, I'm new here. I have been lurking for a while and normally post on DivorceBusters and have finally decided to post here as some of the advice seems much different here.

Heres a run down of my sitch. -Sorry for the length-

My H and I have been together 16 years, married 10. He had an EA with another woman for several years when we were first married (it never moved into a PA -I know this for sure). I was unaware that EA's existed or what they were at that time. I'm a peacekeeper at heart and let myself and my feelings get tossed aside often to avoid confrontations. I'm slowly coming out of this as I realized I was a pushover and this is more than likely the reason my H has never respected me. Although I still have a REALLY hard time saying no to him.

Last year he started hanging out with a mutual friend a lot. They were doing a lot of things together without me. I noticed this happened almost right after him and I went to his co-workers bday party, I wasnt feeling well and didnt know anybody and apparently the bday girl (who was completely drunk out of her mind) told him days later that I was a bump on a log. This is when he started leaving me home and taking her instead, shes much more outgoing then me, doesnt care about what people think of and flirts with the world.

Eventually I had enough, he had been spending all of his time with her and sleeping at her place. I put him out in July 2009. November last year him and her rented a place together as roomates. Her and I had it out and we havent spoken since. He lived with her for about a month before he started staying here again. She had several men in and out of the house within that month and then in December had her new bf came over and never went home, this upset my H as her bf wasnt paying any bills or anything. I was trying to talk him into giving his notice but he wouldnt because he felt I was trying to control him. In January she coulnt pay her half of the rent, this was the last straw for my H and he finally gave his notice. She got to stay until the end of Feb. They were not on speaking terms and when she moved out she moved in with her grandmother around the corner from us. About a month later she knocked on my door, when I answered she handed me a stack of unopened bills with a smile on her face. There were close to $2000 worth of bills from the house they rented that she had never paid.

H and I were doing great, so I thought. In July he started talking to and hanging out with her again. He then informed me again that he wasnt happy here and would be leaving. He was still here by the end of August so I told him he had the weekend to decide if he was staying or going. He said going, I gave him til Oct. 1st as he had lost his job over the summer and I knew he would need time to get money together. He left but has been back. When he's here he's snuggling and helping with the kids and helping me clean the house (he's done the dishes more in the past month then he has in the past 10 years). But then he goes and spends one or two nights at her place (she lives an hour away now so he uses the excuse he's too tired to drive).

He still denies theres either an EA or PA. Over the summer I receive a facebook msg from her bf (the one she had since they had the house). They had just broken up and he said I was right to be jealous of their friendship, that my H was stalking her and they spent too much time together. We both agreed they are not sleeping together but there is something there. I have snooped many times and can not find any proof of a PA all I find are basic friendly conversations. I know everyone out there will tell me it is but my H has always had female friends so he doesnt understand how I am upset about this specific one. I have a feeling it is one sided, he has feelings for her but she wont sleep with him. She drags him along like a puppy. She uses him to taxi her around, even invited him over once and then asked him to babysit while she went on a date (I thought that was funny!!).

Anyhoo, bring us to the current date, everything was going awesome again. Although he has said time and time again that he was done with me I think he was trying that is until Halloween. Our Halloween was awesome, we had a great day and took the kids out together and were going to take them to a haunted walkthrough at our friends place. We were driving along and low and behold ended up behind her. He got out and spoke with her a minute and we continued on our way. We had to stop at my parents on the way and coming up to their place he informed me she was coming along to the walkthrough, I didnt even know she was behind us!!!

Needless to say I was upset as I generally avoid running into her and hadnt really been face to face with her since last year. He got mad at me because I can't "Play Nice" what?!?! I sucked it avoided her at the walkthrough (which he drove to with her). The next morning I informed him that I did not appreciate being placed in that situation and did not want him to spring something like that on me again. He doesnt get it for the life of him. He sent me a msg stating he is done for good, not coming back because I cant give him the one thing he wants which is for her and I to be able to hang out again. He thinks shes being the adult because shes willing to suck it up. Personally, I think she just like to egg me on because she knows it kills me when they hang out.

I picked up divorce papers the other day. I Love him to death but dont know if I can continue to put up with his BS. I know he will never give that friendship up and I cant live with it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated -if you were able to make it to the end of my story

I'm sorry, jealousy, but I would divorce him. He's a renter and a freeloader, not commitment material.

I am sorry you are here, this must be very hard, and if you think he will never change then divorcing him will be the best bet.

Sorry but you will be way better off with out this man in your life.

I dont necessarily think he will never change. He has shown change in the past month which is confusing because he seems to be trying after he says he is done. I'm just not sure that he will ever give up that friendship. Occasionally he decides that he is done with her and stops hanging out with her, but then she manages to creep back in and it starts all over again. Its a vicious cycle that i'm just not sure how to stop. Maybe he goes to her when he thinks things arent going well here, I dont know. He seems confused about what he wants but wont really communicate, just says the conversations go around in circles and we get nowhere.

Although i did get the divorce papers, I dont really want it to be final. I think I picked them up more so for his reaction, to see if he was really done like he says and as I figured he seemed upset, said I was being rediculous and I should hold off on filing paper work. Its like he wants the marriage but wants his freedom too. I just dont know where to go from here

Jealousy, hi.

I know that you have read a lot of the info on this site. There is a lot of great advice to be gained from here.

Where do you need help? What is it that we can do for you?

The fact that OW can creep back in any time she wants shows why NC needs to be FOR LIFE with APs. Even if you don't believe that it is a full blown PA, these plans, A and B, work on EAs.

Have you filled out the EN questionnaire as if you were answering for him? What do you think are his top ENs and what have you been doing to meet those ENs?

Would you be able to do a spectacular Plan A for 3-4 weeks and then do Plan B where there is NC with him for ANY reason?

Also, do you know all about exposure? Are you ready to do it? You will need to tell anyone who will put pressure on their affair. I would tell BOTH sides, his and hers.

This is a part of the stick of Plan A. You can't do a good Plan A with all carrot and no stick.

I believe his top EN's are:

Admiration: He has stated that I dont Thank him or show appreciation when he does things. I have been trying to do this. If he does the dishes I thank him and tell him what a big help it is for me and that I appreciate it very much.

Affection and Sexual Fulfillment go hand in hand in this case. He says he does not feel that I am attracted to him because I dont initiate sex and such. I have always been very touchy feely with him and have just continued this, as well as I try to initiate as well. He feels because Im not passionate I dont want him.

Conversation: He says when we talk its always about the marriage and we go around in circles having the same conversation over and over. I have researched some of his interests and sparked conversations about them. Also when I dont know much about something I ask him about it, it starts a conversation, hes really smart and I think it makes him feel good to "teach" me what he knows.

Recreational Companionship: Says we have nothing in common anymore. I am having difficulty with this one as we do have much in common I just think hes turned his feelings for me off for so long that he doesnt realize we are into a lot of the same things.I ask him all the time to join me and our DD's with activities or I ask if he wants to do something he likes and he almost always says no

I was doing awesome in Plan A up until Halloween night. I thought I even handled it well. I did not throw a fit, I did not scream, argue or demand. I simply informed him calmly that I did not appreciate being placed in a situation like that and would appreciate if he did not place me in that position again. We had a full blown fight yesterday when he was at her place and had the audacity to ask me for money!! Many nasty words were spoken. Soooo should I continue with Plan A even though he is most definately not living here now? or move on over to Plan B?

Im not sure what there really is to expose. To be honest, everyone knows. They dont hide their friendship by any means and everyone already assumes its a PA. Her family openly has him for dinner and since her and I used to be friends they know he has a family.

I would just expose it to everyone anyways. I would make it an exposure where you ask for their help to stop end the affair.

You would not want your Plan A to end on a bad note with Love Busting and a fight. You would want to end it with the last memories to be about the marriage you COULD have IF he ends his affair.

The Halloween night incident is AWFUL. I would have handled it totally differently. These two people are DESTROYING your family. I would not have gone ANYWHERE with them. I would have taken my children and left.

He doesn't have a job and he asks you for money. Well, that is going to need to stop. You do not finance his affair. If he chooses to stay out of the house, he does that on his own.

Marriage Builders is not about marriage at all costs. You can't change him, he needs to be willing to do the work. What you can do is focus on how you can be the best spouse. Even if that means you are the best spouse to someone else down the road.

You will need to get your Plan B prepared before you can actually go into it. Have you started to plan it yet? Do you have your letter? Do you have the financial and children visitations figured out yet? Will you be ready to go dark on him?

This is NOT a trivial question. So, please answer.

WHO paid these bills?


Where did he go before he moved in with OW Nov 2009?
Who paid your household bills/groceries/etc while he was living elsewhere or living with OW?


I take this to mean that your H was paying household bills for OW. And, that is why he was upset BF was not contributing. Is this correct?

What is your current financial arrangement with your H?

jealousy, I'm over here again because Scotty mentioned you on another thread. I've read your posts again, and the only thing I can see is that you and your kids are in a lose/lose position as long as you remain with this man under these conditions.

I'm looking at what you wrote:


HOWEVER:


AND YOU KNOW THIS WAS NO COINCIDENCE, RIGHT?



I'm sorry, jealousy. But my advice is the same. You are being played like a fiddle. This man is YOUR HUSBAND! Look what he is doing to you! How in the world do you think you deserve this kind of cruelty??

There is a simple litmus test here that your WH is failing consistently. And that is that he won't give this "friend" up as a measure of care for his marriage. The choice is now up to you as to how you are going to deal with that knowledge. My suggestion is to file for divorce an unload this freeloader. Look at the example you are teaching your children! Do you want them to think this is how married people behave??

I would file for divorce. That may wake him up. MAY. But if it didn't you could at least free yourself from this toxic environment.

OY VEY! Dragging her along on a family outing???

Please consider buying Dr. Harley's book called Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders. It may help you gain some perspective.

Dr. H:
(Emphasis mine.)

@jelly -

Hope you take what I say with a grain of salt.

What do you want? You've yet to specify what you want.

Just a bunch of gobbledygook on how you have poor boundaries and the WS is a cakeeater.

WHAT DO YOU WANT?

Lol! You have all the power in yourself to choose.

You have a job.
You take care of the kids.
You have a home for you and your kids (WS included).

YOU GET TO CHOOSE WHAT YOU WANT.

So again I ask, What do you want?

Hello J

Here's a different view -

Your husband is treating you like a doormat. There's no question in anybody's mind that he's taking advantage of your love for him and behaving in an abhorrent manner toward you.

If you want to have ANY chance of saving your marriage, YOU must be different. You must believe you are worth better. And you must cut him off from treating you badly.

So - plan for one or two weeks to treat him the way YOU would treat him at your best. But NOT at your expense. You can ask Scotty how that works.

But you also put everything in order to CUT HIM OFF from you. Plan B is something you should study extensively.

You have several areas of personal growth to make before you should consider recovering your marriage:

1. Accept that you deserve to be treated marvelously.
2. Recognize that you are NOT living with a man who treats you marvelously right now.
3. Define the boundaries - what you will do when you are not treated marvelously BY ANYONE.
4. Write your Plan B letter. Post it here for help and ideas. Make it brief. Waywards have pea-brained attention spans, so you have to make it brief, to the point, and somewhat more like a love letter than something else you'd probably rather say to him.
5. Close up all loopholes to contacting you. If you have younger children, get an intermediary to coordinate visitation and emergencies. Be prepared to block or change emails and phone #s. Have a plan in place for tyrannical tantrum attempts to break down your securities to maintain visual and auditory silence with the man.

IF the shock of losing contact with you wakes him up, you must be willing to let him take every and all steps to recover the marriage. HE MUST DO IT ALL. Any rescuing on your part reverts him back to the adolescent he's been lately.

There must be no guarantees that you'll take him back. He has to understand that one false move and he loses. But this is after you choose to end Plan B. False recoveries are *W#%&$^.

Mentally tough! You got it?

Very good post, KA!

Jealousy, you may be dealing with a serial cheater here, OR you may be dealing with someone who has repeated the same mistakes because he has not fixed the core boundary problems within himself. The differences can be subtle, and you're only likely to become sure over time.

I would certainly not push you toward an unwanted D at this time. Even a few, a VERY VERY FEW serial cheaters repent and are able to R their M's, If you want to leave the door open for that for a while, more power to ya.

What I can guarantee you is that if you follow Dr. H's plan, your M will have the best chance to R, and *you* will R regardless.

If you follow the plan:
1. You will be strong. No more doormat.
2. You will properly value yourself.
3. You will believe that you are worth being treated tenderly and with love.
4. You will no longer EVER be willing to settle for less than what you deserve.
5. You will understand what makes a great M work, so you can have one of your own, whether with WH or someone else.
6. You will understand how to protect the great M you will someday have, from this ever happening again.
7. You will be a just generally awesome person - even more awesome than you are right now.
8. You will be a warrioress that your children will always be able to look up to.

No matter how this ends up, you're going to be fine. Welcome, Scotty's friend.

Hello, J. I agree with Kayla. This should really help you to see where you are at and where you want to be. Then you'll be able to make a road map to help you get there.

I was a conflict avoider. That is something which led me to trust my husband too much with my happiness, and also encouraged him to treat me casually, since I was a low maintenance kind of woman.

Our situation traverses 2 years. We were separated for 8 months When I found out he was getting back together with OW, I kicked his butt out of the house. During the nuclear Armageddon I landed on him, he said "But I don't have any place to go!" Correct answer...NOT MY PROBLEM! Yay, Me! I really can learn to be hard hearted! He spent the next several weeks sleeping on a cot at our daughter's house.......and the visual of that gave me some intense personal satisfaction!

Anyway, without me there to do the enabling crap, he had to face his family with his actions. And during the course of the divorce, he realized for the first time (belatedly!) that he actually COULD lose me. The contact with the lawyers and mediators was a big wake up, too.

Long story short, the divorce is on hold, and he has been back home for 3 months, and we have been happier than we have been for the past 10 years. Not saying that is perfect, because our marriage already had a lot of things that needed changing, but it is much better than I expected.

So, I would encourage you look at your marriage clearly. Your husband should be your partner in life, the one who values you most and protects you most, with only his kids ranking even close. Is he this person? If no, then he is not your partner, he is your adversary. He is acting in direct contradiction to the best interests of your marriage.

It will probably require months of separation for him to see that the game has changed, and he no longer gets to set the rules. He needs an intimate look at what his life will be like when his wife has closed the door on him, and he sees his kids on a visitation schedule.

You need to hook up with everyone who can be part of your support network (friends, family, folks on this forum) so that you will not falter during the tough times. Everyone who makes you feel stronger and more empowered, is on your team. Anyone who saps your energy or wilts your self confidence, is OFF the team.

I wish you all the best.

Pepperband -

Nobody has paid those bills. They sat here over 6 months before I gave up and opened them just to see how much was there. Honestly, H doesnt really care much about finances or debt. If he ever gets a place where he has to pay utilities he wont be able to get them in his name.
He was couch surfing before moving in with her. Mostly stayed at my bff's place (she figured she could keep an eye on him for me haha)

I paid my bills.



They were supposed to be paying half and half. H was upset because he was still paying half while her and her bf were using double the water, etc.. Getting him to be financially responsible when we were together was like pulling teeth so it upset me very much that he was willing to pay half of everything for her. Also her DD lived there as well.

He lost his job at the end of summer and has been unable to find employment since. Does not qualify for employment benefits therefore we do not currently have an arrangement.

The "no arrangement" arrangement needs to end asap.

Even if you have to file legal separation papers, he needs to be working and supporting his real family.

All I can say for the moment is that you are taking way to much crap from your H and for your sake, and your childrens, it has got to stop.

I could tell you all sorts of flaws in his personality and run him down, but I am afraid you will reject those observations because you are yourself convinced you aren't worth better, and you are.

What he is doing is not your fault, but you allowing it in your life is. This is the challange before you, and we will help you overcome the obstacles, one revelation and decision at a time.

You must realize at some point that he is not ready to grow up, maybe you think he has great qualities and because you have children with him you are trapped, and its all up to you to fix it/him. You must treat him like the child he is if you want him to change his actions, but the trouble with that is, you will be the only adult in the relationship then.

At this point, your self-image has been so worn down that you don't even seem to realize how much more you deserve and can have, and He is the culprit that has brought this down on you. Nobody, even just a friend, nevermind someone who says hes a husband, would do that to another human being, but many have told you that right? Its not a surprise to you is it? You want help to change him to husband material right?

You want him to love you right? To be in love with you. To spend his time thinking of you and the children and thier well-being as the most important thing on this earth, right?


He is more interested in himself and chasing what he can't have. He has you and has tamed you into thinking you need him.

What I think is nessesary is for you to stand up for yourself and get him out of your life until he is ready to act like he should towards you. This will be quite a feat because you will have to realize how bad you are being treated, get angry at it and demand respect, and at the same time with your newfound self-respect still desire this guy and find value in him. You are likely to realize what you think is great about him does not really exist, and that you and the children are better off without him.

Thats OK, you deserve better, you just don't know it yet.


Plan A and B work to reach those who are capable of realizing they have made a big mistake and can pull their heads out of thier arzes. I wont say that your H is incapable, but from what you have described, after you have realized what you should have in your marriage, and made the demands that he will need to comply, he will run away screaming like a little boy and all you will get is a modicum of respect from him out of the deal. You will still be dealing with a manipulative child, and he will continue to lie at every turn.

The medicine that we call this marriage needs will probably kill the patient. But it will free you or anyone willing to follow the prescription.

Hang in thier Jealosy, you are jealous for good reason. Help is on its way.

Neak - I am in the process of filing the custody and support papers.

Maritalbliss-


I was with him, it was actually a coincidence not a secret meet up. He had left his cell at home and had just stopped to get it minutes before we ran into her. He had no means to this point to contact her. She stopped at her grandmothers around the corner on her way home when we pulled up behind her at a red light. We live in a VERY small town.


No I dont want them to believe this is how married people behave, however I would like to teach them that running away from your problems rather then dealing with them is not ok either. I want to know in my heart of hearts that I did everything possible to keep this family together.

I believe you have sweetie, now start taking charge of your life and your children life, this man is very toxic.