Yes BASICS. Get your list together. You don't want to be taken off guard.

Also, is your WH showing any remorse? Would you be able to get him on the phone with the coaching center?

This way they could tell you what you should do.

Yes - I did see some remorse today. SOmething was different in his eyes - good different!

He is willing to do counseling as well.

So are you calling the Harleys to set up the appointment?

I have to check finances...we may only be able to do the online program. It just depends. I'm getting some good advice on the whole process of MB though. :-)

The online program allows you access to the private forums and coaching center. Worth its weight in gold.

Probably literally, when you compare it to the cost of a divorce.

Very true, Door!

Wow...had to dig my thread out of the recycle bin...

Update on sitch: Moving along slowly. Did see H a few times over the weekend and we talked a little. He came to the high school football game Friday night - met me there. The boys kinda did their own thing, running around with friends during the game. I know it was uncomfortable for H yet he showed up. He spent a little time Saturday with S14 while I ran around with S16. Sunday he met me at church and we sat together with S14. S16 went to the youth service. SO... He still has not seen S16.

I thought he would want to talk or see me yesterday but I didn't hear from him after church. When I asked him about it he said it was because he was leaving me to my studies...knowing I had a lot to do. That makes sense but I sure would like to see him "trying" a bit harder!

I have been confirming NC to the best of my ability and see no signs there. Of course, one can never be 100% certain, which leads me to today:

I'm feeling a bit depressed today - resentful even. I think I have been fighting so long and so hard for my marriage, "staying strong" and all that, I am just now processing that my husband actually cheated on me and was intimate with another woman. I guess I knew this day would come, that I couldn't just sweep it aside and not work through it, but I didn't expect it to be today. I thought it would take a little bit longer, when H came back home and the day-to-day realities of living with him would sink in.

Right now I feel sorry that I married someone who didn't have the integrity that I thought he had. I'm wondering if I can ever get over that - not just the actual infidelity. I don't want to be partners with a man who thinks that there is ANY justification for cheating! My mom is a horrible nag, unpleasant to be around, and extremely critical yet my dad has never stepped a toe out of bounds! How do I know? Because he was Mr. Mom and was always with my brother and I as soon as he got off work. He never went anywhere without my brother, myself, or my mother except maybe to go mow the lawns at church! Heck, he should be anointed for sainthood, imo.

I want a man like THAT! A TRUE family man - and I would treat him a helluva lot better than my mom treats my father, that's for sure.

I am confused are you in plan B? because right now I see no plan NOTHING. You are in plan C and that plan will lead to a divorce.

Was wondering what was up with you lately; almost bumped your thread.

Ups-and-downs are all part of recovery. If NC holds, your husband will come out of withdrawal over time. However, here we bump up against another critical difference between men and women:

Women usually have more withdrawal from a relationship than men.

Now, like most rules-of-thumb, this is not remotely absolute, and has so many exceptions as to be almost laughable. But it often explains why men have the APPEARANCE of being unaffected by withdrawal. The other woman is safely tucked away in a corner of his heart, and if he never sees or speaks to her again, he won't trigger and feel withdrawal. Or if he does, it may be very rarely.

You'll read story after story on here of faithful wives resenting the fact their unfaithful husbands seemed to "get over it" so quickly. It's this ability to create separate "rooms", as Dr. Harley says, in their lives for the women they know. The challenge for us is to integrate our wives into every room of our house, so that no matter where we go or what we're doing, she's on our mind.


You know, a year ago here, many posters were harping on waywards having a "character defect" of some sort. Then Dr. Harley reiterated his belief -- that forms part of the core of the MarriageBuilders treatment strategy -- that EVERYBODY would have an affair if presented with similar circumstances. For the first-time unfaithful spouse, it's not typically a matter of "integrity". It's that they never believed themselves capable of an affair, therefore did not enforce appropriate boundaries with members of the opposite sex, allowed one to fill their needs, and grew to love that person.

That's why so many of us suggest regarding a wayward spouse as having had an alien inhabit their bodies. It's extremely difficult to merge the person you thought your spouse was with the extremely hurtful, self-centered person they became during their affair.

So many times in life, we find metaphors that aren't true, but are useful. This is one of them. No alien actually inhabited your husband's body, but the combination of Contrast Effect, Love Bank balances, Exclusive Needs-Meeting, and his desire to continue the affair and have needs met by both partners made him act in a way consistent with totally being "not himself" anymore. Make sense, I hope?


As he's a man, there can't be. He MUST be remorseful and apologetic, have turned over a new leaf, and commit to do ANYTHING he has to do to repair what he broke before you take him back. Dr. Harley noted in a recent radio show that very few recovered couples had a husband who was not remorseful at the start of recovery.

It's a little different with wayward wives. Often, recovery is begun with no remorse, and the wayward wife often feels justified having had her affair. Not sure why there's a double standard, but the fact remains that many marriages can recover and be amazing despite a wayward wife who's not remorseful, but very few marriages recover if the wayward husband is not remorseful.



And this is why Private Messaging is disabled on this board. All this advice flowing around, all these betrayed spouses thinking just this way, and that's a recipe for the creation of more affairs.

Keep your guard up very high. Enforce your own extraordinary precautions against having an affair yourself. You are at a particularly weak point -- when you're thinking about the kind of man you want -- and your only protection is ensuring that you're never in a situation that you'll allow another man to meet your emotional needs.

On your reading list, I'd add "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley & Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers...

Thanks for all the good advice, Door! Don't have a long time to reply - off to class - but this is VERY good thinking material!

Will reply later - and I did order SAA.

Sapphire - I guess you're right.... I don't know... I didn't think there was a need for an A or B if we were in reconciliation mode. ???

A possible suggestion:

Does your husband have a computer (laptop) where he is staying and/or a phone with internet service???

One way to HELP insure/verify "no contact" is to ask/require him to key-log his own computer with reports emailed to you remotely and for him to shut down internet service on his phone.

Kinda like a guy trying to quit smoking pot giving up access to and control of his bong and other stuff.

He should also be giving you all his email passwords and the like. In fact...it would be best if you could ambush him with this information by asking for it, possibly, while he's at your house and you are sitting at the computer ready to "log in" to his accounts and check them (before he can clean them up).

Of course he can circumvent such access and monitoring...but recall, you aren't watching his words but his actions TOWARDS being open and honest. An honest man hides nothing...and his reaction to your insisting is one such "action" to watch closely.

If he hesitates...you say "there are no secrets in marriage...not anymore...buck up and give me those passwords right now"....

and

I'm TRYING to help you help yourself...you want to come home don't you? Let me be your accountability partner...we can do this TOGETHER as a team. You may not realize this but I actually UNDERSTAND fully that breaking contact with her is very emotionally difficult for you. You are a caring man and I understand you had feelings for this woman. It upsets me that you did/do have such feelings but I'm not going to sit here and deny reality any longer... WE CAN DO THIS TOGETHER. I will help you if you let me.

(between you and me...we know the "feelings" he has a complete crap and that a relationship build on lies and deception will never amount to anything...but THAT is not his thoughts and feeling today....today, he's feeling like he lost someone he feels was important to him...feelings lie...but he'll only come to understand that much later in the process...a process only you can LEAD him to. Unfortunately, they rarely do this on their own)

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - you MUST have firm boundaries. He MUST know that it's VERY possible he ain't coming back. Sure you'll help pull him out of the hole but ONLY if he sticks to the rules. Otherwise, you are pushing him back in.

Agreed, Mr. W!

I like how you put that about doing it as a partnership.

Just to add...we've had some issues come up with the kids that have taken precedence the last few days so all our contact has been about them, not us.

Long story. I'm exhausted from my own school work and motherhood!!! I don't have the mental energy to deal with marriage...lol. I know it has to be a priority, but why on earth does everything happen at once?!!!

Door...I'm so glad you posted all you did the other day. For the sake of brevity I won't repost it here, esp. since it's just a few posts back. All these things you've said have been so extremely helpful to me the past few days! I can't tell you how many times those thoughts/words have popped into my head.

YES...You're right: with my feelings of sadness, right now I would be vunerable to looking to someone else making me feel better. I guess it's the whole grief process: You deny, you get angry, then you get depressed, and hopefully, acceptance brings some peace. I am one who fully believes in keeping yourself out of temptation's way, esp. when you know you're vunerable. No walking to the edge of the fire to see if I can keep from getting burned! lol. I realize that's what H did. He let himself, in a vunerable state, not only walk toward the fire but brought along some wood to burn just in case.

I now realize the most important thing is to never take your marriage for granted. ALWAYS make it a priority, even when it seems "fine" because you never fight and get along well. Also, never think your spouse incapable of an affair. It's just too easy these days. Keep yourself out of harm's way by not playing with fire if you're vunerable.

Therefore, I can see your point that it isn't so much a character defect as one's not guarding his or her integrity with care during a sensitive time.

It IS difficult to see that this whole affair business isn't as serious to H as it is to me. So yes - he's getting over it a lot quicker than I am although I have not harped about it at all.

I can say that the last few days I feel like the alien has left - and that's good news! When I look into the eyes of THIS man, it's the man I love, not the stranger that's been there for months. Our conversations are going well and he's even doing some book reading and being sensitive to all my needs.

We still have not decided when he is coming home. I am making sure he is committed to continuing the MB program and that there's to be no backsliding. Hopefully this won't take too long, but I do NOT want to live through a false recovery if I can help it!

Update....Although, not much change to report at this point.

Have been focusing on kids most of this week with homecoming (huge deal here) and D19 coming home from college for the weekend. Also, S14 has been having some depression issues so I'm watching that carefully.

H met me at the football game on Friday night. Saturday after I got the kids off to the homecoming dance he and I had dinner. It was nice. Sunday we went to the movies and played putt putt. Tonight the boys and I met him for dinner. It was the first time S16 had seen him since he left. It went well - nothing heavy - just friendly.

Overall I am seeing MUCH more of my husband back - the H I know and love. You can just tell in the eyes when they're truly there. We still have work to do, obviously, before he comes back home but I am feeling very hopeful that we can get past this.

So far we have been focusing more on reconnecting than working through the harder issues. I know we cannot ignore those, but I felt that in order to have the desire to get through those, you have to be motivated to do so. Now that I feel that bond is back, it is time to start dealing with more serious matters. (This doesn't mean, btw, that I haven't been confirming NC or asking for transparency, etc...)

H and I need to put a picture together of what our married life should (and will!) look like. We have to put together a plan to meet each other's needs and make our relationship a priority. I have to feel secure that he is doing everything he can to guard himself from infidelity both now and in the future. I'm sure he wants to make sure the changes I've made are going to stick.

So far I think things are going well. I still haven't let my guard down and am protecting myself. I guess I don't feel quite secure enough to just let H back in totally yet. I think that's healthy though because he has to EARN that.

On the one hand...separation protects you from a false recovery and gives you time to assess his convictions (and get through no contact withdrawal)...

However...

Separation is also more likely to lead to divorce.

He has to come home sometime and I think I would have you TRY to put the control back into his hands. Meaning...YOU are NOT keeping him out of the house. He is because he has failed to make you feel safe and is failing certain specific pre-requisites you require before letting him come back home.

He's an adult and a man. Treat him as such as YOU Plan A him through this period and LEAD him back home.

How you go about this???

I don't know. Perhaps you communicate with him that if things go like they are...maybe he'll be able to come home in January or February. (i.e. - you two are on the slow train)

He says: "Whoa...what are you talking about? I was thinking the end of this month".

You say: "Then how would you propose to make me feel safe enough by the end of this month to come home...what is YOUR plan?" (let's come to a decision TOGETHER on how to take a faster train...what would that look like?)

He says: "I don't know"

You say: "Well would you like time to develop your own plan or would you like me to give you some ideas for "your plan" which MAY get you home by Christmas (which is what I would like very much). Better yet...would you like to develop a plan TOGETHER."

You see...you are making HIM work out a plan to get himself home. This isn't you forcing him out. If he could convince you tomorrow of your safety I'd say let him back in so you two can fix your marriage under the same roof. That ain't happening but you get the point. There are risks to separation and he could very well end up back in the fog in some other affair. Sure you could tell yourself...fine, I don't want him back if that's the case but he is very vulnerable and prolonged separation will allow stupid justifications and rationalizations (like you don't really want or care about him) to creep into his vulnerable mind.

He needs to be home.
You need him home.
The kids need him home.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Since you post on several boards you MAY consider sending him here to post at least 50 or 100 times. By doing so, you'll be able to get the opinions of numerous objective persons that have been in both your position and his position as to whether we believe he is safe to move back home. If he can convince us...then that's a pretty good indication it's time. This would be a really quick way for this situation to be handled effectively without YOU having to do any of the work and trusting him blindly. His words here won't lie. We've got gre8 bullcrap detectors here. Plus...with him posting here you'll have a degree of comfort knowing where he is and what he is doing with his idle time as you rebuild trust. He should start a thread "I want to move back home...what should I do".

Very good ideas, Mr. W! I think it is great for the plan of recovery to be both of ours that we come up together. It's been difficult for me to want to allow him to come home. Not because I don't want him home, but I am afraid of getting hurt if he comes home and it's not what it should be. There's also the point of view that he needs to be "recovered" and earn his way home. However, it IS awfully difficult for us to work on our marriage like this. I think we are so busy playing it safe that our progression is slow.

I don't know if I could get him to post here, but maybe! That's a very good idea. Since part of the recovery plan is MB, it would be a good thing for him to be on here as well!

Sunny,

Please read this... Recovery After an Affair

Notice especially Extraordinary Precautions number 3. - Spend As Much of Your Time with Your Husband as Possible.


You've already been hurt tremendously. Because I have recovered my marriage I come from the perspective of KNOWING how good things can eventually turn out for all those involved in your situation (including your husband). IMO, continuing separated is only increasing the odds exponentially that divorce will be your outcome. Divorce hurts too, likely much more than a few more months of REALLY "trying" (after "No Contact" as there is no "TRYING" before no contact).

Sure recovery is hard and risky. But if it's your preference then I'd like to see you give it the best opportunity you can. Your husband is a crap head right now. He's going to continue to be a crap head for some time. If you intend to wait until he he's not a crap head and "recovers"...you may as well chalk up the marriage right now because, IMO, he can't do it without being in the marital home with you and your family holding him accountable for his behavior and actions. You MUST work the recovery plan TOGETHER in each others presence.

I also think you are stronger now. As long as he's in No Contact I think you can personally handle it. You've detached from having to save it to whatever happens...happens. It's a much easier place to be when trying to work with a hopeless depressed former wayward.

BTW...I am not saying allow him to move back home tomorrow. Rather work on a time table WITH HIM and come up with a PLAN together towards accomplishing such hopefully before the holidays.

Firm boundaries.

Mr. Wondering

You make some really good points! I AM stronger now, that's for sure. You're right: I have been waiting for H to be "recovered" before pursuing a more aggressive form of recovery. It does seem safer that way.

I'm going to read that article on that link right now! H and I did spend a lot of time together this past week - more than in a long time, even before he left the house! (Well, as you can imagine, being in A mode, he wasn't interested in spending time with me at that time.) From last Friday until today, 15 hours total and it was all really nice. Last night was especially nice. I know the goal is 20, but given that last weekend was homecoming for the kids, it was a very busy weekend for me!

I think a big part of me is waiting for H to initiate more of the recovery because I want to see his level of interest be where it should be as well as his level of effort. Some people tell me he should be begging, pleading, etc... before I consider fully letting him back in. It's hard to discern between that and needing to do "the work" before he gets to that point. Does that make sense???

Absolute truth. Even when things are going good, you HAVE to protect yourself.

I agree, HHH! If people would just keep themselves out of temptations way we would have a lot less infidelity going on.

I really want to work on the specifics of a recovery plan with H this weekend. I know we need to do that. Why am I not feeling it? It isn't that I don't care, obviously. I think part of it is that I am tired of being the "relationship keeper" and I want HIM to fight for our marriage! I want to see him step up to the plate instead of me instigating everything towards a better relationship.

Part of me knows that it's true: if I wait for him to be "recovered" that I might as well write it off. The other part of me wants to see him pursuing our reconciliation with at least as much gusto as he did the dang affair!!! Ya know????