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wrong thread.

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Hooray for a lesson in Learned Helplessness!


Back on the grind...

The Misconception: If you are in a bad situation, you will do whatever you can do to escape it.

The Truth:
If you feel like you arent in control of your destiny, you will give up and accept whatever situation you are in.

Quote:
If, over the course of your life, you have experienced crushing defeat or pummeling abuse or loss of control, you learn over time there is no escape, and if escape is offered, you will not act you become a nihilist who trusts futility above optimism.

Studies of the clinically depressed show that when they fail they often just give in to defeat and stop trying.

The average person will look for external forces to blame when they fail the mid-term. They will say the professor is an [censored], or they didnt get enough sleep.

Depressed people will blame themselves and assume they are stupid.

Do you vote?

If not, is it because you think it doesnt matter because things never change, or politicians are evil on both sides, or one vote in several million doesnt count?

Yeah, thats learned helplessness.


http://youarenotsosmart.com/2009/11/11/learned-helplessness/


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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HHH, you asked me to post here if I had any more objections to your advice to Chris.

You said:

Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
The rest of it comes from personal experience; I was a WoW abuser - fitting exactly the behaviors of the definition of abuse, as well as a lot of the behaviors of Chris's wife here.

I behaved that way because? Because my love bank was EMPTY, I was withdrawn and depressed. I turned to a game to find happiness. I quit the day I got ILYBINILWY, and didn't play ANY games until the end of November.

Please note that you did not give up games because your wife knocked herself out trying to fill your LB. You gave up when you were told (effectively) that your marriage was over and she was in love with someone else. That was, by definition, a gigantic lovebuster of a speech, and yet the danger that you saw to your marriage prompted you to pay attention to your marriage.

I haven't read the thread on which you described the events, but you must have tackled the affair and in some way made it end. (Exposure, or whatever.)

When it ended and your wife agreed to to try recovery with you, she THEN went all out to compensate you. She did not make efforts to fill your LB while you were excessively gaming. That is not how the gaming ended.

I have read your comments about her refusing to leave, and putting up with your rages, and how her behaviour has helped you fall back in love. (I have read these comments on wulfpackgirl's thread.)

You are using yourself and your own experience as a template for your advice to Chris, and yet what happened when you discovered the affair was nothing like you are recommending to him; it was the direct opposite.

Additionally:

You say you abused the game out of loneliness and an empty love bank. You have no idea whether Chris's wife is abusing the game for the same reason. Other people on the thread, like ManinMotion, have have described their own feelings of addiction to games, and yet you bypass their experience to insist that your own behaviour, that of abuse, is what Chris's wife is displaying.

You are advising from a very personal standpoint, i.e. this is what is was for me, so this is what it must be for her. You advise that we should not beat her up, because what she is doing is normal for that game; she isn't doing anything extraordinary.

I am NOT advising from experience. I have not been involved in games, deployment or any kind of addiction or abuse. I am looking at what Chris has written, recognising an affair and using Harley advice to get it ended.

I think your personal investment in gaming is causing you to give bad advice.


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KK. Fair enough assessment. Wheels posted up rather well, and to the contrary, however, how he drew Sapphire out with Plan A.

The way I was drawn out of gaming may seem like a poignant point, but I would hardly state that an affair or threat of divorce or separation is the best card to play.

It's not just her time playing the game that points to that, it's her behavior towards Chris in conversations that he posted, and his own comments, the way he talks to her about the game, that points towards withdrawal and/or conflict on BOTH sides of the situation. Obviously, Chris is more in withdrawal.

FWW could have easily drawn me out with Plan A. Every single time she respectfully requested I quit playing the game and spend time with her, I did. Every time she employed an AO/DJ/SD to get my time, I resisted.

That is not just a personal experience - it's an echoed experience for any AH/IB activity. It's echoed in several stories on this board.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Hope anyone I have gone 'round with on that thread doesn't take it personally. Again, if I do tick you off, I'm sure FWW would be more than glad to deliver a smack for you.

: )


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
KK. Fair enough assessment. Wheels posted up rather well, and to the contrary, however, how he drew Sapphire out with Plan A.

This isn't entirely true. He listed it as part of his Plan A but it really isn't ~ he forced her to stop playing the game. He blocked it and was there to physically stop her.


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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
KK. Fair enough assessment. Wheels posted up rather well, and to the contrary, however, how he drew Sapphire out with Plan A.

HHH,

I have had the feeling from reading some of your other posts that you misrepresent, what a poster has said. You have definitely done that here.

Wheels did NOT post "to the contrary". This is what he said:

Originally Posted By: Wheels_spinning
I had to treat this as an affair. She is not only addicted to the game, which has its rewards, but to the immature men living in their parents basement. This same situation changed my wife into a 16 year old girl with no responsibilites and disrespecting me also. I became a doormat trying to make her happy, but my plan to try and make her happy did not work.

This is what I did:
I cut off her WoW because I was paying for it. It took 3 months for the subscription to expire, but why would I want to pay for her adultery? I told my WW that she can pay for it if she wants it, but I will not.

I blocked FB using a browser blocker and my router.

I installed the keylogger, which you have, and I also installed the elephant add on to wow to get both sides of the conversations. (must have access to the computer and her account for it to work.

We mutaully agreed to limit her playing time to a couple hours. (even now I think I should have blocked WoW altogether by blocking a port or IP on the router and saying, huh, the server must be down.)

I cancelled our joint bank account and moved all the bills and direct deposit into another bank. I was only going to fund my family, not the adultery.

I figure these are things that I did to protect myself, not control my WW. My WW could still go out to the library and use FB, I couldn't stop her doing that.

I then did a massive exposure to all her family and my family and our friends online. I attached some conversations that I recorded from hacking into her FB account, but I HIGHLY suggest to not do that, just let others know you have evidence of her cheating ways.

Next I got rid of all my DJ's. Some of the subtle jokes that I would comments were just downright mean and nasty. I would also treat my WW like a kid. Then I turned on the charm trying everything to recreate that dating atmosphere that we fell in love with. I made her cookies and wrote her i love you notes. Made her breakfast in bed, and all those wonderful things.

If she stayed up all night talking to these guys online I would get up and let her know, with a smile on my face, that her actions are ruining our marriage. Then go back to bed. I would not condone what she was doing to our marriage and our family.

That there is how I implemented my carrot and stick. I tried my best to meet her needs, and still deliver the stick without being the bad guy. I was not the bad guy trying to save my marriage. I was protecting myself, my kids, and my family from adultery.

His actions were very heavily weighted in favour of the stick.

How could you simply bypass what he said about cutting off the games, blocking Facebook and cancelling the joint account? How could you simply leave those out and go to the part where he said that AFTER doing those things, he got rid of the DJs and turned on the charm?

How could you fail to mention that, when he caught her gaming beyond the agreed time, he tackled his wife directly on this?

How could you in any way read what Wheels said as an endorsement of your position of "Plan A, with no direct tackling of the affair and gaming"?

Your response to me was "KK. Fair enough assessment", but you do not seem to see how serious my point is. You write in an off-hand manner quite often, but this sometimes spills over into disrespect, such as when you accuse posters here of "group think". If there is "group think" here, it is because we are trying to apply Dr Harley's advice to desperate people in deep trouble. Chris is fighting a war for your country and mine, and watching from afar while his marriage falls apart because of an affair, and his thread is not a place on which to write that "everyone is all up-in-arms about the OM situation - or all up in arms about this or that - all ready to bicker blah blah blah..."

Up in arms about the OM situation - as if we shouldn't be? Up in arms about this or that - as if anything about this terrible situation can be dismissed as "this or that"? Ready to bicker - because some of us insist on applying Dr Harley's principles, and steering Chris towards them?

And earlier in the thread you said "Dropping game chat logs and going "SHE'S HAVING AND AFFAIR, SHE'S BEHAVING INAPPROPRIATELY!!!!! ZOMG I CAN HAZ CHEEZEBURGERZZZZ!!!!!!!" Is going to be nothing more than a gigantic disrespectful judgment."

That is a gigantically disrespectful way of describing Chris's attempts to get help here for the crisis of this affair. The "'head up backside" picture was also.

You know a lot about gaming, and I'll defer to you about the normality of the language and what it all means. You are wrong, however, to tell Chris that, "Those game logs are great for shock value, but absolutely devoid of any contextual value, or any sort of target."

The contextual value is that his wife is a married woman and a mother and he is correct that she should not be writing these things. If the game cannot be played without her using those expressions, then she must stop playing it.

You might understand games, but your understanding of MB principles has been off in that thread. You would do well to sit back and learn from the experienced posters such as MelodyLane and HerPapaBear who are now posting to the thread. They have completed the MB online course and met with and counselled directly with Dr Harley for some years now. Don't blast the thread with any more "you don't know what you're talking about because you don't understand games" posts.

I don't need your wife to slap you. I can do it myself. naughty


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See my rant thread for my standing on experience.

Appeal to authority does not always lead to correctness.

Anyway, did have some trip-ups from the "off-hand" posting style that led to some gaps in communication - often making a statement and forgetting the actual point, so I am going to address them.

1st - I commented that her chat "Hey Baby" is "worth wondering about," that was me being guilty of group-think. It's not all that uncommon in the game, but I know dismissing it would have got me lambasted as those with a "superior position/opinion" wouldn't agree. It was choosing a battle.


Quote:
If she is friending them on FB, it HAS. If she is calling and texting them, it HAS. That IS a problem - and later on you NAIL the actual problem.


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n fact, Chris - if you were to snoop and find NOTHING giving solid evidence of anything other than gamer's banter - I would STILL say you have a situation that is EXACTLY as dangerous as an affair, and that in and of itself, exacerbated by YOUR behavior towards her, could easily lead to an affair.


Quote:
Neglect, in operation, IS abuse - it is just a TYPE of abuse.


Quote:
Moreso considering this possible attachment to an OM - HOWEVER, that must be CONFIRMED. If there is heavy evidence, then the game has to be left behind as a part of NC - just due to recent advancements in the game where players can track each other through any of the companies games at any time while they are logged on.

If she has taken this interaction too far, all Blizzard games HAVE TO GO.


Immediately preceding the quote about the chat logs:

Quote:
n all honesty, whatever the language, the fact that there is ANY CONTACT OUTSIDE OF THE GAME is a huge red flag, and a huge issue. The fact that it's gotten to phone calls and text is disturbing.


Quote:
So, yeah. Let's do some thought rearrangement here - this woman's gaming is a hobby, no different than; golf, sewing, horse riding, weight lifting, card collecting, reading that horrible author Stephanie Meyer, or anything else other people do to entertain themselves. All of those things have their own languages and expressions.


I failed to follow this with the context; because it is viewed as a "hobby" she is going to battle it because she sees it as "nothing wrong." Were someone sewing or golfing 6-10 hours a day, it would be the same situation - however, gamers are often held to a different standard, because most people don't see the "value" in gaming, and/or just view it as a total waste of time. The statement was not made to legitimize her abuse of the game, but to illustrate that gaming is, like the mentioned activities, a hobby/RC activity.

Quote:
Considering the state of her marriage, and her age, I would edge closer to abuse than addiction.


Kicking out a generality here; much like many in their early and mid-20's are binge drinkers - abusers, but not alcoholics. Part of that wonderful "invincible youth" stage.

Anything else I can clarify or address for you?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
Anything else I can clarify or address for you?

I'm sorry to say this but you haven't clarified anything for me.

Part of my problem is that your use of language confuses me. I actually don't understand what you are saying at times. For example, what does this mean?

"See my rant thread for my standing on experience."

What did I ask you about your "standing on experience"? I pointed out to you that YOU SAID that your experience in temporarily giving up gaming was brought about by the ILYBNILWY speech. It was not brought about by the carroty Plan A that you are forcefully recommending for Chris.

Why are you recommending that I read your rant thread? Either the gaming ended as you described above or it did not. Since Chris's WAYWARD WIFE is the gamer and not Chris, and Chris is not having an affair, then her gaming is not going to end from the same cause as yours. Your experience in giving up gaming is not useful to Chris at this time.

What does this mean?

"Appeal to authority does not always lead to correctness."

Which of my statements does this refer to? What authority are you talking about; Chris's employers? That sentence is just too cryptic for me.

As for the rest of your post; it does what several of your other posts do. I does not address the point I made above it!

1. You made an assertion about the Plan A of Wheels_Spinning.

2. I countered that you misrepresented the post, and ignored the heavy "stick" part of Wheels_Plan A.

You bypassed the whole post to go back to statements that you made earlier, which were not the statements that I have been challenging you on.

I have quoted and underlined the statements of yours that I take issue with.

You have not answered my points, but made new points (or defended old ones that were not in contention.)

You are frustrating to talk to, because you move the goalposts when you are asked to defend your statements. Your arguments lack consistency and clarity.


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One more then and then I'm off to bed:

You diverted Chris's thread by inserting a red herring about whether his wife was an abuser or an addict.

I read the powerpoint slides that you linked, and I see that the expert describes the behaviours as almost identical. Addicts and abusers both do things that are ruinous to health and to social relationships, and that might break the law.

The main test of the difference between the two comes when the individual is forced to give up the source of the addiction.

The addict will crave the substance and go to serious lengths to get it. The author mentioned "robbing party stores to get more morphine". The addict can't give up easily, spends a great deal of time obtaining the substance and continues to use it despite the consequences.

The abuser can give up on his own. When he stops using the substance, the symptoms of withdrawal are few.

However, how are we to know which one Chris's wife is, and does it make a difference to what he should do now?

Dr Harley says that we cannot know whether a person in an affair is addicted. We will only know that they are addicted if they give it up and experience withdrawal. If they are not addicted, they will not go to extraordinary lengths to seek their substance (the affair partner).

However, because we cannot know whether a WS is addicted or not, he says we must treat the affair in the same way regardless; cut it off, cold turkey, with absolute NC for life thereafter.

In other words, it doesn't matter what category Chris's wife falls into. Trying to establish whether she is an abuser or an addict is a red herring, a waste of time and a diversion from the urgent business of stopping her affair and rescuing the marriage. You have taken that thread down a path that it shouldn't have followed with your attempts to stop us calling her an addict.

Whatever category she falls into, the treatment is the same. The affair must be stopped, the conditions that enabled the affair (online gaming) must be shut down and there must be NC by any means between her and the men she is talking to.


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1. I never thought on MB that I would see intraweb talk like "can I haz cheezburger?111!11" It reminded me of a lot of off-topic areas in my weight lifting forums.

2. HHH, there's a pretty sweet MMO if you have an Android phone called Dungeon Defenders: First Wave. It's getting a cooperative play by teh guys over at teh XDA forum.
2.a. If you don't have an Android phone, you need to get one.

3. Day 1 of not smoking sucks. I think I spent 3 bucks on chewing gum and my jaws hurt!

4. Game of Thrones series on HBO is going to be so freakin awesome.


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Quote:
In other words, it doesn't matter what category Chris's wife falls into. Trying to establish whether she is an abuser or an addict is a red herring, a waste of time and a diversion from the urgent business of stopping her affair and rescuing the marriage. You have taken that thread down a path that it shouldn't have followed with your attempts to stop us calling her an addict.

Whatever category she falls into, the treatment is the same. The affair must be stopped, the conditions that enabled the affair (online gaming) must be shut down and there must be NC by any means between her and the men she is talking to.
Good post, Sugar. I tried to make the same point about the importance of defining addiction/abuse in this case, but got lost in the shuffle.

HHH, may I suggest an analogy? Remove the word 'gaming' and replace it with 'affair'. Your posts are alarmingly close to justifying wayward behavior in the context of a game.

As far as golfing 6-10 hours a day, or anything else that interferes with a person's relationships: anything to excess that is conducted in spite of damage to a relationship needs to be addressed. Anything. I don't care if it's backgammon or volunteer work.


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Quote:
As far as golfing 6-10 hours a day, or anything else that interferes with a person's relationships: anything to excess that is conducted in spite of damage to a relationship needs to be addressed. Anything. I don't care if it's backgammon or volunteer work.
Well said!


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I wasn't going to ask this, but I just have to.

In what universe of healthy marriage exactly is it "OK" to discuss penises, having sex, and "eat me" with someone other than one's spouse? I am having trouble wrapping my mind around how ANY "gaming language" justifies that kind of talk.

This isn't rocket science. Uh....I cannot imagine a justifiable context in which I could chat with some other man about his penis and what I would like him to do to me.....ever.

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Originally Posted By: SugarCane

What did I ask you about your "standing on experience"? I pointed out to you that YOU SAID that your experience in temporarily giving up gaming was brought about by the ILYBNILWY speech. It was not brought about by the carroty Plan A that you are forcefully recommending for Chris.[quote=SugarCane]

See the next reply by wheels stating "the biggest carrot for the donkey." This stick is operatively important, but useless if you dangle a turd instead of a carrot. You can't have one with out the other; correct? I don't find that hard to understand, nor anywhere did I make any statement regarding NOT cutting the game off. That's been implied by others, not myself.

[quote=SugarCane]Why are you recommending that I read your rant thread? Either the gaming ended as you described above or it did not. Since Chris's WAYWARD WIFE is the gamer and not Chris, and Chris is not having an affair, then her gaming is not going to end from the same cause as yours. Your experience in giving up gaming is not useful to Chris at this time.


Only as an example of abuse versus addiction.


Originally Posted By: SugarCane
1. You made an assertion about the Plan A of Wheels_Spinning.

2. I countered that you misrepresented the post, and ignored the heavy "stick" part of Wheels_Plan A.


See the above about carrot and stick.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
You bypassed the whole post to go back to statements that you made earlier, which were not the statements that I have been challenging you on.


Yes, I did. I have still failed - since we have cherry-picked and gone style-over-substance, and additionally appeal to motive.

See your previous accusation about ignoring parts of a poster's post.

So why did I repost those? Because you are trying to discern my motives using particular statements which you took exception to. Is the motive any more clear now?



Originally Posted By: SugarCane
I have quoted and underlined the statements of yours that I take issue with.

You have not answered my points, but made new points (or defended old ones that were not in contention.)

You are frustrating to talk to, because you move the goalposts when you are asked to defend your statements. Your arguments lack consistency and clarity.


I'll go back over those.


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Originally Posted By: SugarCane
HHH, you asked me to post here if I had any more objections to your advice to Chris.

You said:

Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
The rest of it comes from personal experience; I was a WoW abuser - fitting exactly the behaviors of the definition of abuse, as well as a lot of the behaviors of Chris's wife here.

I behaved that way because? Because my love bank was EMPTY, I was withdrawn and depressed. I turned to a game to find happiness. I quit the day I got ILYBINILWY, and didn't play ANY games until the end of November.

Please note that you did not give up games because your wife knocked herself out trying to fill your LB. You gave up when you were told (effectively) that your marriage was over and she was in love with someone else. That was, by definition, a gigantic lovebuster of a speech, and yet the danger that you saw to your marriage prompted you to pay attention to your marriage.


I also played the game because she didn't attempt to fill my LB at all. What she did was engage in AO/DJ/SD behavior, and drove me further into the game. Not excusable, just what happened. The very first thing I did was to ask for separation. It was also a case where I was in the home - not thousands of miles away for an extended period of time.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
I haven't read the thread on which you described the events, but you must have tackled the affair and in some way made it end. (Exposure, or whatever.)


She ended physicality after ILYBINILWY - contact continued until he moved away - I had little more than the stabbing suspicion of how far it had gone.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
When it ended and your wife agreed to to try recovery with you, she THEN went all out to compensate you. She did not make efforts to fill your LB while you were excessively gaming. That is not how the gaming ended.

I have read your comments about her refusing to leave, and putting up with your rages, and how her behaviour has helped you fall back in love. (I have read these comments on wulfpackgirl's thread.)


Flip that back around; she refused to let me leave. She never asked or attempted to leave. I didn't really try all that hard, either. I kept asking permission.

My use of the word "rage" is unfortunate. When I "rage" compared to what people may imagine, it's pretty timid. I've never yelled, or called her any names, or made any threats. Rather, I explain exactly how much I hurt, and why I am so angry.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
You are using yourself and your own experience as a template for your advice to Chris, and yet what happened when you discovered the affair was nothing like you are recommending to him; it was the direct opposite.


Because I believe, based on what I have learned here, that a lot of what I did along the way was DEAD WRONG. That is BASED on what I have learned here - the success(?) of my total experience so far does not mean that I would recommend it to anyone. My FWW was remorseful from the moment of discovery, and it has built to a crescendo throughout the process. Were I to tell him "what I would do" facing a WW like his, it would simply be "D." Up until this morning, with his most recent posts, this was not his goal.


Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Additionally:

You say you abused the game out of loneliness and an empty love bank. You have no idea whether Chris's wife is abusing the game for the same reason. Other people on the thread, like ManinMotion, have have described their own feelings of addiction to games, and yet you bypass their experience to insist that your own behaviour, that of abuse, is what Chris's wife is displaying.


You are right, I don't. I know that she is playing the game while her husband is thousands of miles away and engages in LB behaviors in his conversations with him. I have no idea what the balance of her LB$ is, but I think it's a safe gamble to bet it's pretty empty, no? She isn't quite behaving like someone with an overflowing LB$ now, is she?

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
You are advising from a very personal standpoint, i.e. this is what is was for me, so this is what it must be for her. You advise that we should not beat her up, because what she is doing is normal for that game; she isn't doing anything extraordinary.

I am NOT advising from experience. I have not been involved in games, deployment or any kind of addiction or abuse. I am looking at what Chris has written, recognising an affair and using Harley advice to get it ended.

I think your personal investment in gaming is causing you to give bad advice.


And you are free to your opinion, but don't tell me my intentions when you demonstrate that you don't understand my intentions. Nor should you assume because I don't follow your accepted methodology that I am; a) going from a personal standpoint, or b) not using this program as my template.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: SugarCane


Wheels did NOT post "to the contrary". This is what he said:

[quote=Wheels_spinning]I had to treat this as an affair. She is not only addicted to the game, which has its rewards, but to the immature men living in their parents basement. This same situation changed my wife into a 16 year old girl with no responsibilites and disrespecting me also. I became a doormat trying to make her happy, but my plan to try and make her happy did not work.

This is what I did:
I cut off her WoW because I was paying for it. It took 3 months for the subscription to expire, but why would I want to pay for her adultery? I told my WW that she can pay for it if she wants it, but I will not.

I blocked FB using a browser blocker and my router.

I installed the keylogger, which you have, and I also installed the elephant add on to wow to get both sides of the conversations. (must have access to the computer and her account for it to work.

We mutaully agreed to limit her playing time to a couple hours. (even now I think I should have blocked WoW altogether by blocking a port or IP on the router and saying, huh, the server must be down.)

I cancelled our joint bank account and moved all the bills and direct deposit into another bank. I was only going to fund my family, not the adultery.

I figure these are things that I did to protect myself, not control my WW. My WW could still go out to the library and use FB, I couldn't stop her doing that.

I then did a massive exposure to all her family and my family and our friends online. I attached some conversations that I recorded from hacking into her FB account, but I HIGHLY suggest to not do that, just let others know you have evidence of her cheating ways.

Next I got rid of all my DJ's. Some of the subtle jokes that I would comments were just downright mean and nasty. I would also treat my WW like a kid. Then I turned on the charm trying everything to recreate that dating atmosphere that we fell in love with. I made her cookies and wrote her i love you notes. Made her breakfast in bed, and all those wonderful things.

If she stayed up all night talking to these guys online I would get up and let her know, with a smile on my face, that her actions are ruining our marriage. Then go back to bed. I would not condone what she was doing to our marriage and our family.

That there is how I implemented my carrot and stick. I tried my best to meet her needs, and still deliver the stick without being the bad guy. I was not the bad guy trying to save my marriage. I was protecting myself, my kids, and my family from adultery.


His actions were very heavily weighted in favour of the stick.

Originally Posted By: Wheels_Spinning
You guys are both right. To get the best plan A you have to improve yourself. Stop the LB's and and provide the juciest carrot to the biggest donkey. I did alot to improve myself, to gain the respect from my wife, and I had to do it while enduring one of the worst pains of my life. I figured I had to learn how to be a better husband so if this marriage ends in a divorce then the next one will be better because i am a better person.

I think Chris gets the idea that he has to try to be better and he has to do it now, but there is this affair that needs to be addressed. All of which is encopassed in a successful plan A.





Originally Posted By: SugarCane
How could you simply bypass what he said about cutting off the games, blocking Facebook and cancelling the joint account? How could you simply leave those out and go to the part where he said that AFTER doing those things, he got rid of the DJs and turned on the charm?


Because the stick and the carrot GO TOGETHER. Let's examine that last quote there, particularly this phrase "I did alot to improve myself, to gain the respect from my wife, and I had to do it while enduring one of the worst pains of my life." That big, juicy carrot is NOT the reaction that is natural while someone is harming you, the stick totally is. The stick protects the BS while keeping the carrot as something of a goal. Without the carrot, the stick is... well, just a stick. The normal response is to beat the crap out of the donkey with it. Which effectively just makes the donkey hate the rider.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
How could you fail to mention that, when he caught her gaming beyond the agreed time, he tackled his wife directly on this?


Per his own quote, in a very "carroty" manner. Short, sweet, simple. Not an extended conversation, not an AO, not a DJ, not a SD.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
How could you in any way read what Wheels said as an endorsement of your position of "Plan A, with no direct tackling of the affair and gaming"?


This is your assertion and incorrect understanding, part of the reason of throwing out my own quotes.


Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Your response to me was "KK. Fair enough assessment", but you do not seem to see how serious my point is. You write in an off-hand manner quite often, but this sometimes spills over into disrespect, such as when you accuse posters here of "group think". If there is "group think" here, it is because we are trying to apply Dr Harley's advice to desperate people in deep trouble.


Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Chris is fighting a war for your country and mine, and watching from afar while his marriage falls apart because of an affair, and his thread is not a place on which to write that "everyone is all up-in-arms about the OM situation - or all up in arms about this or that - all ready to bicker blah blah blah...


I'll concede this is a misstep on my part. And I haven't been entirely clear - the game has to go. I think some of my posts have lead people to not understand - again, I posted that not only must this game go, but she cannot again play any games made by that company, because it now has a "social networking" system that allows players to communicate across all games by that company.

As far as what and where Chris is, that's simply an appeal to emotion to give your argument weight. I am aware of where he is and what he is doing, and quite honestly it adds a grave complication to the matter. Which is why I suggested he look into family hardship leave or discharge.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
Up in arms about the OM situation - as if we shouldn't be? Up in arms about this or that - as if anything about this terrible situation can be dismissed as "this or that"? Ready to bicker - because some of us insist on applying Dr Harley's principles, and steering Chris towards them?


Appeal to authority. The bickering that occurs here is quite simply people disagreeing with HOW those principals are applied. There is something going on with his situation that has to be discerned; is the disease the OM, or is the disease the game? BOTH are threats. However, if the OM is the driving force behind the gaming, then THAT root has to be killed. If the game is the force behind the OM, then THAT root has to be killed. They BOTH have to be addressed, and contact with the OM is occurring outside of the game.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
And earlier in the thread you said "Dropping game chat logs and going "SHE'S HAVING AND AFFAIR, SHE'S BEHAVING INAPPROPRIATELY!!!!! ZOMG I CAN HAZ CHEEZEBURGERZZZZ!!!!!!!" Is going to be nothing more than a gigantic disrespectful judgment."

That is a gigantically disrespectful way of describing Chris's attempts to get help here for the crisis of this affair. The "'head up backside" picture was also.


Funny. Dropping the chatlogs already happened, and it made a blip, but she easily dismissed it; it's all just a joke and it's how people talk in the game. This is why context is important.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
You know a lot about gaming, and I'll defer to you about the normality of the language and what it all means. You are wrong, however, to tell Chris that, "Those game logs are great for shock value, but absolutely devoid of any contextual value, or any sort of target."


See the above.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
The contextual value is that his wife is a married woman and a mother and he is correct that she should not be writing these things. If the game cannot be played without her using those expressions, then she must stop playing it.


The fact that it is a problem to her husband is the most important fact. I don't seem to remember arguing that... oh. Looked back over every post. I didn't saying directly to Chris that it shouldn't be a problem to him. It's been interpreted in that manner by others.

Originally Posted By: SugarCane
You might understand games, but your understanding of MB principles has been off in that thread. You would do well to sit back and learn from the experienced posters such as MelodyLane and HerPapaBear who are now posting to the thread. They have completed the MB online course and met with and counselled directly with Dr Harley for some years now. Don't blast the thread with any more "you don't know what you're talking about because you don't understand games" posts.

I don't need your wife to slap you. I can do it myself. naughty


No. My target on intention has been off, and I allowed myself to be derailed and tied up in arguments and lost my purpose. Need to work on being more clear, and not allowing myself to be steered off course.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Quote:
In other words, it doesn't matter what category Chris's wife falls into. Trying to establish whether she is an abuser or an addict is a red herring, a waste of time and a diversion from the urgent business of stopping her affair and rescuing the marriage. You have taken that thread down a path that it shouldn't have followed with your attempts to stop us calling her an addict.

Whatever category she falls into, the treatment is the same. The affair must be stopped, the conditions that enabled the affair (online gaming) must be shut down and there must be NC by any means between her and the men she is talking to.
Good post, Sugar. I tried to make the same point about the importance of defining addiction/abuse in this case, but got lost in the shuffle.

HHH, may I suggest an analogy? Remove the word 'gaming' and replace it with 'affair'. Your posts are alarmingly close to justifying wayward behavior in the context of a game.

As far as golfing 6-10 hours a day, or anything else that interferes with a person's relationships: anything to excess that is conducted in spite of damage to a relationship needs to be addressed. Anything. I don't care if it's backgammon or volunteer work.


It's something I failed to be clear on, and I do agree that any activity followed in this manner needs to be addressed. What I have failed to state, is that the nature of the abusive use causes it to be more difficult to address - exponentially so with Chris not in the home. When he tried to expose to her parents, it was dismissed. Not. Good.

Unfortunately, her parents are likely biased toward their daughter, so he is going to have to have some clear, hard evidence to drop on them, and that is going to be difficult given his situation. Even with that, with all the smoke she's blowing, they will likely again be biased toward the daughter.

I saw your post when you made it MB, and it wasn't lost on me.

Due to his lack of support at home, where he is, and how long he is going to be away, it is rather important to determine between the two. If it is abuse, hopefully she can be redirected. If it is addiction, it's entirely possible she will chase another addiction - and possibly one that is more destructive. That bears some consideration.

Though, I'm sure he'd get better support if she was cut off of WoW and became a drunk....


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh

Due to his lack of support at home, where he is, and how long he is going to be away, it is rather important to determine between the two. If it is abuse, hopefully she can be redirected. If it is addiction, it's entirely possible she will chase another addiction - and possibly one that is more destructive. That bears some consideration.



It is both. She is addicted to online gaming and it is abusive. It is wrecking their marriage. I am a recovering alcoholic and you can bet my addiction was profoundly abusive. I drank for the same reasons most people become addicted: they are selfish, thoughtless as*holes who are running from life. And most of us do BLAME others for our failures. That is the way of a loser addict; they are accomplished blameshifters.

My addiction was 100% was my fault. If I didn't want to drink, wild horses could not have made me drink. It is the same with Chris's wife's addiction and your addiction, you there is nothing that could have forced you to do it if you didn't want to. The truth is you wanted to and she wants to.

In Chris's case, even though her parents were not of help the last time, he needs to try again. Maybe it is true they don't give a crap about her [and many parents don't love their children and won't lift a finger to help them] but he still needs to try to enlist them.

Sad thing is there is not a lot he can do, other than exposure, to repair this situation while he is gone. This is why I avoid military threads. I don't know how to help them.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
[If it is addiction, it's entirely possible she will chase another addiction - and possibly one that is more destructive. That bears some consideration.



That is not a good reason to avoid trying to kill an addiction. The solution, of course, is to replace the vacuum with something positive. Just as with an affair, the solution is to replace it with a healthy, happy marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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