I don't want to sidetrack but this is an important part of sorting my own chit out. I think I may have had a lightbulb moment.

After the run in last night I felt quite elated, like a massive weight rolled off my shoulders and like I had a voice. Ever since I was little my SD and I never got on. My SD made no effort whatsoever to build a rship with my brother and I, we all lived under the same room with separate lives, he never showed any care, conversation, or affection for either my brother and I. Now some of you will have your view, but IMHO if you are going to become a SP to someone else children you have a certain responsibility to make an effort to develop a relationship with that child. Ofcourse the resentment and dislike grew as I felt the whole time growing up that I had to be grateful to a man thant quite frankly wanted us out of the way. I was told off, pulled up on it told I was 'difficult' 'complex' but in no way felt protected and safe. My SD was idolised for 'saving' my mother from the 'big bad wolf' my father.

Thats why it felt good to stand upto him last night, because we don't have a relationship, he tells my mother and she blames me. I told him in that he had no right to judge me and 1 he has never made any effort with me and 2. he has no r'ship with his wife's children or his own, so do he think he is in a position to point out my character flaws and where I fall short? See I always wanted to get on with my SD for my mothers sake, I have always been polite, chatted ect... but I will not put up with him putting me down, period.

Now that I can deal with, I suppose what I am trying to make sense of, is why would she want to be with a man who had no interest in her children? Did she realise that she was shifting the blame from her H to her children for her poor choice in H? Why didn't she spend time in her own company before going from the frying pan into the fire? Now what is done is done. I just needed to make sense of it all, as most of the time I have felt there was something wrong with ME. I was bad, difficult, complex, moody...ect...

So what have I learnt from this?

1. That it is important that I have this time on my own before jumping into anything with my H or D. VERY important.
2. That we have to take responsibility for our decisions in life
3. That I want to be with a man who has morals, boundaries, good qualities, and vice versa for me.
4. That I have no interest in OM, as whatever he may be he is wrapped up in his own selfishness, and that will show maybe not with me, but in other areas.
5. I am super sensitive to criticism which I believe is a result of how I was always put down as a child
6. I should expect more from a relationship, as they have been very low.
7. That I don't need to have a man on my arm to validate me as a person
8. That when/if I have children it has to be in with the right man, in the right relationship
9. That my H, has never got involved with a married woman, and I am still praying that he is going through his own growth process just like me, and I still have faith in him.
10. That in defending my boundaries it could mean that some people are not part of my life.

So there, brain hurts, sorry if this is all a bit deep but helps me understand where I am and what I need to work on, and what I need to change.

Oh and Happy Birthday H, thinking of you, and I hope you are missing me being with you right now.

Yes,

Chaos, well,

It is said somewhere in the Bible.. "God will shake what can be shaken, and what is left will be Gods", or something like that, I'm sorry I hate misquoting scripture, it can be so misleading..

But the point is, if doing what is good and right shakes the people in your world up, tough for them. If what you are doing what is right, it will stand, and you can count on that more than any person in the world.

Lol sidetrack? well this thread is about you and for you. So it made me chuckle.

That was very insightful post Harmony, from what I have gathered before it just solidified what most of us were probably allready thinking about how SD acted and the relationship with your Mom.

Pep summed it up also, you had no family role model and you were probabll taught the wrong things. by example.

Ok, so where does that leave you? Your a loving and sensitive daughter. Forgive them, take care of yourself, and watch how much to try to teach them, because parents rarly listen to children anyways, and you have to protect yourself.

Imagine what it might be like if they were healthier and how they would treat you, and treat yourself with that in mind, many of us have had to do that in our lives.

Spiritual authority comes from the top down, and many in authority do not listen or look up for it. Sometimes we have to look past them when we see they are messed up, and get the answers for ourselves.

In the big picture, from Gods perspective, they will be glad we did. But that is thier own journey in life.

I thought we were all clear that OM already showed his selfishness with you. That he used you in an egotistical and selfish way, and doesn't even reapect marraige or what its supposed to be, or care about how important it was to you. That it IS important to you.

Maybe you should go back and read my post about his choices he had at the time. Why he chose what he did.

Those other areas? Sorry but he is lost Harmony. He blew it, and you have to realize what he did proves he would do it again.

You deserve better and should see that. You gotta stop romantisizing that crap Harmony.

A deeper and more meaningful real romance can be yours in the future.

OK I like this post. So not only my marital skills are pretty poor, my history is not that great either, had to look Magellan up

I am liking it though, and thanks Pepper.

Do you know any decent History Building websites, where they don't serve 2 x 4's?

Yes, I want you to see what boundaries/lack of boundaries can do to a marriage. I want you to learn. All that has happened WILL affect your life, that is for certain. What is not for certain is whether it will affect you positively or negatively, you control that. Hence the talk about boundaries, about looking at your parents and other married couples and seeing what is working and not working for them. The list you made in your last post was very good.

Oh! and having boundaries sometimes means speaking up and other times it means leaving something/someone alone. There are many ways to protect your boundaries and as you see them you will NOT be so sensitive to criticism because you will understand it better. Some criticism is for your benefit, and some is for someone to defend themselves. It sounds as if your SD was not for your benefit. But, then again he did not know what you were thinking and have been thinking for all of these years until...NOW. Now he knows, this may change things.

This brings me to something else. You having boundaries, letting people know what they are, and defending them will drive some people away, but it will also allow others to know you and while they may not like your defense, they will learn to appreciate you. A negative response to you defending yourself, does not mean the result will be negative. Have patience.

As for your family situation, it is complex but you can see that the lack of boundaries on your fathers part cost him dearly. It cost him a woman he apparently still wishes he was with. Your Mom's lack of boundaries put her in a situation that was not/is not optimal for her, but she is making the best of it.

Harmony, there are no guarantees in life, but the one thing you control is how you handle yourself and what comes to you in life. That is really what this is all about, learning how to handle yourself.

Please think about this carefully.

God Bless,

JL

Wanted to print this to you,regaurding the 2X4s. I stole it from the web, and its kinda famous and old, but you will like it im sure.

----------------------------------------

"The Meanest Mother"

I had the meanest mother in the whole world. While other kids ate
candy for breakfast, I had to have cereal, eggs or toast. When others
had cokes and candy for lunch, I had to eat a sandwich. As you can
guess, my supper was different than the other kids' also.
But at least, I wasn't alone in my sufferings. My sister and two
brothers had the same mean mother as I did.
My mother insisted upon knowing where we were at all times. You'd
think we were on a chain gang. She had to know who our friends were and
where we were going. She insisted if we said we'd be gone an hour, that
we be gone one hour or less--not one hour and one minute. I am nearly
ashamed to admit it, but she actually struck us. Not once, but each
time we had a mind of our own and did as we pleased. That poor belt was
used more on our seats than it was to hold up Daddy's pants. Can you
imagine someone actualy hitting a child just because he disobeyed? Now
you can begin to see how mean she really was.
We had to wear clean clothes and take a bath. The other kids always
wore their clothes for days. We reached the height of insults because
she made our clothes herself, just to save money. Why, oh why, did we
have to have a mother who made us feel different from our friends?
The worst is yet to come. We had to be in bed by nine each night
and up at eight the next morning. We couldn't sleep till noon like our
friends. So while they slept-my mother actually had the nerve to break
the child-labor law. She made us work. We had to wash dishes, make
beds, learn to cook and all sorts of cruel things. I believe she laid
awake at night thinking up mean things to do to us.
She always insisted upon us telling the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, even if it killed us- and it nearly did.
By the time we were teen-agers, she was much wiser, and our life
became even more unbearable. None of this tooting the horn of a car for
us to come running. She embarrassed us to no end by making our dates
and friends come to the door to get us. If I spent the night with a
girlfriend, can you imagine she checked on me to see if I were really
there. I never had the chance to elope to Mexico. That is if I'd had a
boyfriend to elope with. I forgot to mention, while my friends were
dating at the mature age of 12 and 13, my old fashioned mother refused
to let me date until the age of 15 and 16. Fifteen, that is, if you
dated only to go to a school function. And that was maybe twice a year.

Through the years, things didn't improve a bit. We could not lie
in bed, "sick" like our friends did, and miss school. If our friends
had a toe ache, a hang nail or serious ailment, they could stay home
from school. Our marks in school had to be up to par. Our friends'
report cards had beautiful colors on them, black for passing, red for
failing. My mother being as different as she was, would settle for
nothing less than ugly black marks.
As the years rolled by, first one and then the other of us was put
to shame. We were graduated from high school. With our mother behind
us, talking, hitting and demanding respect, none of us was allowed the
pleasure of being a drop-out.
My mother was a complete failure as a mother. Out of four
children, a couple of us attained some higher education. None of us
have ever been arrested, divorced or beaten his mate. Each of my
brothers served his time in the service of this country. And whom do we
have to blame for the terrible way we turned out? You're right, our
mean mother. Look at the things we missed. We never got to march in a
protest parade, nor to take part in a riot, burn draft cards, and a
million and one other things that our friends did.
She forced us to grow up into God-fearing, educated, honest adults.
Using this as a background, I am trying to raise my three
children. I stand a little taller and I am filled with pride when my
children call me mean.
Because, you see, I thank God, He gave me the meanest mother in
the whole world.

written by Bobbie Pingaro (1967)

--------------------------------------------


I don't advocate violence with children, and I only resorted to spanking after I explained to my 5 year old how times were tough, and I was working two jobs, because I wanted him to have the best, and he still would not stop pulling his sisters hair or whatever.

Yeah, that was a joke.

Violence begets violence, and although every spanking came with a lecture, and a chance to stop before them, and yes a visit to them after to assure them I hated resorting to that, I would not spare them if they were endangering themselves or others. They would rather get a spanking, than listen to my lectures about thier behavior, almost every time.

Getting them to realize the consequences to thier behavior was the reason behind the discipline. To make them strong enough to look into themselves and understand what and why they wanted things, was more important for thier future than how irritated they might have made me or Mom, and yes we were not perfect and we did get irritated, and sometimes spanked them when we were. But most of the time, it was the last resort, and communication worked, along with compassion and teaching.

I envied the people who had Moms and Dads like the ones in this poem when I was a child. It was supposed to be a badge of honor sorta when I was a kid when Dad spanked you, but with me it wasn't done outside of anger, it was done within frustration from a guy who was allways frustrated with us and never happy with us. Because of that I allways was working and trying for acceptance, from a man who never accepted himself. All I wanted was to be treated normal, and have normal parents, and trust in them, so I could trust in myself too.

When I turned 18, my girlfriend who to me gave me selfworth, because she loved me and believed in me, convinced me that we should be married. I wanted to do the right thing by her, so I agreed, although I felt I wasn't ready. I told her that if we got carreers, and waited til we were 25 to have children, I would be happy with that, because I knew myself, and I knew having children was something I took very seriuosly, and I wasn't ready to take that on.

I was away from my Mom and Dad, and they had gotten divorced, and I was hopeful for the first time in my life for a future where I could be a man and love and respect what that was. I still was unsure though, and had something to prove, as any young man does, because he does. My wife stopped taking the pill without my knowledge and became pregnant on our honeymoon. I was not ready, but it made no differeance, I was going to be a Father.

I knew it was up to me and I had to grow up fast. anylizing myself or think how unfair is was would not help this child. I got very seriuos about growing up, being mature, and providing for him. This was not what my wife expected I guess. She thought I worried to much, didn't relax enough and she was concerned that I didn't party anymore. I was thinking, I'm sorry, this is what adults do, they make prioritys for thier children more important than themselves. I have not one moment of regret for thinking that way, it was to me, the measure of a man, and still is. To be honest though, niether of us were ready for marriage, and it ended with divorce years later. The most painful part in that for me is how I feel I let my Son down, and in that myself and what I find important too.

You have not had a child yet Harmony. You want one and a family too. Much of what we all are doing here is telling you that WH is nowhere near ready to take on that responsibility and your desire for those things will require a man with a deeper desire and inner security than WH has. I don't know if he will come around, he could of course, but he will have to see that he needs to grow up, and want that more than anything else, and have the guts to stick his neck out and sacrifice his desparate habits. Because well only he can bring the honesty of what he is afraid of to the table, his table, where he chooses what is right whether others see it or not, where he accoutable to his own conscience first, and shares it with you, then at your marriage table.

WH has many issues he must deal with, some that might take years and the help of therapists and other teachers. Marriage is not something that just happens, it an institution where we learn to love also. The vows are not wishful thinking, we must be honest with ourselves before we can be honest with others, to some this is a challange, esspecially those who are not yet ready to be healthy alone.

IMO, both of you have your issues, but you are the only one willing to learn and explore yours, so you have the benifet of growing and learning about yourself, while also learning how important it is to be satisfied with yourself, while protecting yourself, and yes, your future children. Its the oxygen mask theory. Why do they tell women on a plane to put the oxygen mask on themselves before they put it on the child? Because they know, thier instint is to protect the child at thier own detriment, and if they follow that instinct, both may die.

It may seem unfair that you have to go thru this, but it is a blessing I promise, and you will see it more and more as you travel this road. Don't get discouraged, your life is gonna get better from all this, and you will learn how to be an even more awesome and loving woman with or without a husband and children, and you do not have to settle for anyone who does not love and respect you.

You needed a father who would love you and care for you more than themselves and now you were ready to settle for someone just like the fathers you had. Maybe you need to look inside and see what you were used to, and if that was unhealthy, and look for someone/thing better in a man. Maybe you need to realize you deserve it, and need it in a husband.

What do you think?

Wow, you were to blame for thier lack of relationship? What a guilt complex that must have developed in a little girl. Have you ever thought about that Harmony? How did you deal with it?

Hi Guys

Thanks for all your posts, I feel like I have found a tremendous amount of peace with myself and you have no idea how liberating this feels.

Spoke to both my sisters yesterday, they are both been very supportive about my run in with my SD and felt protective over me but feel sorry for mum, they are both 10/11 years older than me. Had a further interesting chat with my sis over dinner last night and we actually talked about what happened back then, I need to understand what happened so I can makes sense of it all. I have never gone there. I asked questions like,

How did mum meet SD?
Did Dad have A's?
How badly did Dad hurt children/mum?
Why did Mum go straight into relationship with SD?
Did Mum meet SD whilst with Dad?
How long after Dad left did we move away with SD?
How old was I?

It was good to understand, and also appreciate the make up of my family. I suppose all that went on back then, the saddest thing I feel is that my mum fell into a relationship with my SD when she was at a vulnerable time. Also, that during the marriage she felt like she owed him for 'saving her' which probably led to her standing by my SD, rather than protecting her children and giving them the time and attention they wanted (SD liked to keep mum to himself).

Apparantly my SD got a job far in another town away from where we lived and asked my mother to go with him, my mother told him no she just wanted to be on her own with her children and my SD went to my mothers sister to get her to beg to change my mums mind and she did. She also had another 'wobble' before they got married. Argh! I am not angry with any of them, thats just the way they were, at least it helps me put some sense to the way I have turned out. My sister also told me that my mum was considering leaving SD a few years back. I think JL is right, she makes the best of it. That makes me sad, I can't help it. I don't like to think of her 'making the best of it', but they were the words of my sister also. She is not unhappy, but boy she could have been so much happier. I feel that her D was the right decision for her and more than entitled to it, but I do not think that she should have jumped into a r'ship right away.



I don't know I how I dealt with it, I didn't. I think that talking about it here, understanding boundaries and looking at the make up of SD, mum ect has made me understand it.

I was made to feel bad and guilty because I did not get on with SD. I was always pulled to one side by my mums sister, or my elder sisters havign a word with me about how I was with SD. I was treated as the 'difficult child with issues', even to this day. You can not imagine how good it felt to stand upto my SD and not accept his negative judgement of me. Weird but when my mum came outside, it was almost like there was an unsaid apology, like she was stood behind me cheering me for standing up for myself. It was like I saw the situation through my own adult eyes and it all came clear, just like that.

Now I understand that my mother did not want to acknowledge that maybe it was her H who was at fault as they it would be admitting that perhaps she had not made a good choice in partner (again). This explains why I have always had a strong set of GFs from a long time back, as I learnt from that is men come and go but you always will have your GF's. Ihave never dropt a GF for a guy, I think thats how it felt, mum dropped me for SD.

I have bonded with my Dad again in recent years, I was always a daddys girl when I was little. I think he has a lot of remorse and regret over what happened back then and spent a long time blaming my mother. He apologised to M recently, but whats good now is that my sisters and brother and I are the most important thing to him NOW.

I guess what Ihave learned from all this 'probing' is that I was a normal healthy happy child who was put in a situation that was confusing, unsettling and lacking. What I have learned is that I did the best I could with what I had, it was not my fault, in fact the opposite. It makes sense now, I was always searching for that role model, with neighbours and friends parents. Hopefully now, I have learned a whole lot more I can make some better decisions with some of the knowledge I have learnt here:)

Oh and OM, I don't think so do you?

Hiya COnstant

Earlier in my thread you asked what I do for living, I work in IT and run outsourced contracts on site for various customers. I joined BT, UK equivalent of AT&T you probably know them on the graduate scheme and worked my way up.

I enjoy business and I enjoy dealing with customer, although at some point would like to do something more fulfilling but one thing at a time!

Thanks for the story, it was really cool, I appreciated that. I get it totally, that the parents that seemed mean really cared. I know that all my Dad really wanted, was for his children to be well mannered and respectful.



It feels a tiny bit unfair, I would rather have learnt it all along the way but if anything it makes me even more determined to be fulfilled, happy and successful in life. At the moment it all feels a bit much, not in the sense I am low or can't cope, but just a lot going on. I actually feel quite good, has anyone had that feeling when you are supposed to be a wreck as chaos is going on all around but actually feel quite centred?



You have a very good point here. I have been doing a lot of work on myself lately so it has taken my mind of H and how I feel about that. I feel in a good place right now, hurrah, I just want to stay here for awhile. Get some balance and peace in my life.

I know what you mean about raising my expectations re qualities in my H, it is difficult to miss or expect something when you have never had it. I suppose if I spell out 3 things that are important me is, time, attention and care. I will have higher expectations, and will ask for more but honestly I think I will give more than I did in the past. The more I go through this process here, the more I realise how less than perfect I was too.

So I have 2 chain of thoughts on my H, if he were to offer me that olive branch;

1. We have both brought issues into the M, we both needed to learn and grow as individuals. Using MB concepts and 100% commitment, we could have an amazing M, and be even stronger knowing that we have grown so much together.

2. My H has too many of his own issues to sort out, which could take a long time and even then he is not willing to accept his own flaws and change. Too much damage has been done and I am wasting my time.

Ofcourse, I am praying for the first option, and do so every night.

Something in me believes in him. I hope this is my instincts and not me living in fairytale land

Harmony

Harmony,

Could you do me a favor and go back and read your first posts here? I think you will see what you know. You were not and perhaps are not quite yet ready to really be in a marriage or a relationship. You are getting there.

You are starting to show the signs of someone who is be capable of rearing a child, nuturing a marriage, and actually enjoying a marrige.

It is not that people are perfect Harmony, it is what they do with their imperfections that counts. To handle ones imperfections correctly, takes insight into ones self and insight into the human condition.

If you were to read Harley's articles today, I firmly believe you would see what he says in an entirely new light. You would not only read the words and understand them as actions to take, but you would begin to see the "reason" behind them.

You are coming along nicely Harmony, keep up the good work.

God Bless,

JL

Hello JL,



It was actually quite painful to read my original thread, particularly how much my H disrespected me. Just by not coming home at night and me being awake worrying and him going off doing is own thing. It was such a horrible time, Plan B is much better! I have been sleeping better and smoking less (still have 1/2 a day), gross I know.

Yes I did not like the way he treated me and the way I was scared to speak up, I have definetly found my voice.

Also I was very desperate and needy, my coping skills were poor too.



Thank you JL, I feel like I am, thanks for staying close to my story.

I started to work for AT&T in the late 80s, but my life was to unstable and so was I, so I got laid off. The union didn't like me anyway, its OK, I really never liked them either. Don't get me wrong, they have there place, but supporting ppl who waste company time flirting with the secretaries.. well I won't start on that Lol..

My 23 year old son is a manager and was top salemen before in AT&T now. Very proud of him. Its funny how that works huh?


yes take your time.. the best part is that you know it will come when its right, and it will come I am sure.

About the qualities in a H, In some ways it is also the role of a father, I don't mean H as a father to you, but how a father acts. IYKWIM.. What does a man do in what situation as you observe them? What do they reflect from inside? I don't think you were ever allowed to call a parent on anything before, so yes, you did not have that. Believe me, honesty and integrity caused me to appoligize at times to my little girl, and I learned from my mistakes too when I messed up.

There is an example that sticks in my mind on how they train bank tellers to recognize counterfiet money. They give them real money to handle over and over again for weeks, touching, looking at it counting it. All the time giving them tasks and emphasizing how important the tasks are, and studing the money. By the time they are used to the tasks, and they handle the money so much its second nature, when they pass a fake bill through thier hands, they instintivly feel it.

Yeah if you have never had it, you don't know the real thing yet, so you might not even know it when you see it. But now you are handling your life better, and someday anyone who doesn't treat you right, will show up as counterfiet.


Something about believing in people, I would be the most stupidest person in the world to say someone could not change, not only because I would like to see people lead better lives, but because if they do, mine would be better too. I was one straight laced serious young man in my 20s, but most of the people who knew me were confused by one simple thing. How could I give everyone such a place of grace and say that they could change? Especially when my job and function was one of authority? The answer is simple.. I needed that grace also, allways did, allways will. If I couldn't give it to others, I couldn't give it to me. Many of the people who critisized my belief had a ton of problems themselves, and they judged others on a permenant scale. things like "They will allways.." or "They will never.." and truly, I think they felt that desparate about themselves too, and it parylized them.

Thing is Harmony, if someone does not perform in business you must do what you can to help them, or let them go. You are an Exec, you know how that works, you do nobody a favor if the whole ship goes down, because one will not play ball. You are responsible for everyones paycheck and the people who count on it. Its the real reason to administrate, to help others, and authority has its place then where it should be, not in power and prestige.

In a relationship that digs deep into our soul, like marriage, it is even more important that we have the right ingredients and inner balance between the two. Its more about the qualities of integrity and honesty we share and not as much about the measureing stick of others which seem so important in the world, and thier opinions of outward prosperity. Things can look so good and a marriage breaks up, things can look so bad and they stick and fight for each other, but only the two can answer the question, "Do they love me?" as they learn about what it is. The intimacy that comes from total honesty between two people is a bond that cannot be broken. They need honesty between each other along with the truth as it is revealed about life.

Biblical quote "A three fold cord is not easlily broken" It means the intimacy of two people who dedicate thier life to each other, with the truth and love of Christ entwined within in it. What is the first thing we need to be able to love? The love and guarantee of it from another weak and frail human being?, or the love of God whom is the author of what love is. I will trust God before another person, but if I hear God speaking through them, I can trust them too. Sorry but people plagurize and get love from that source, we all do, as do I too. Its OK, I am not ashamed, without God I am nothing. Maybe that is why I forgive and give grace, because I know I need it too.

You are in a healthy place now, and your taking the time needed to realize just how valuable of a person you are, and how to protect yourself. You are a very forgiving and nurturing lady, this is one of your strengths, can you see how it can also be used against you? How it also can be a weakness if you don't watch how far you let others cross a healthy boundary? In the end, and by that I mean the answer to the big question.."What am I afraid of?".. I hope you see that you have nothing to fear in standing and fighting for yourself, and you have nothing to prove, and with descretion, nothing to hide either. This will come with time, and I have no doubt you have the heart and tools to get there.

Keep learning to love yourself..

Hi Harmony,

first of all, I missed that you had a birthday lately, so congratulations! This is a good age, not young, not old, but maturing I'm 36, so I know.

I'm very glad that you're a survivor. I'm sure you feel that knowledge makes us stronger, so you were able to stand out against your SD. I know how it hurts to watch how our parents' and in-laws' marriages are sometimes hurtful to them, too, the sore spots just stick out. But I don't know how to tell them without embarrassing them and myself, because I would feel educating them, but culturally it would be wrong. So I've chosen to stand by and tell myself that this is not my business.

You also took 2x4 seriously and continue walking the personal recovery road. I'm glad that are still here with us. So keep going!

I have read back through my thread �FWW in need of help and hope�.

It is quite difficult seeing how much pain I was in and how H treated me. I am pretty glad I am in Plan B, even though I miss my H.

Now I am in a clearer, calmer place this is what I see from that thread:

� That I found Plan A really emotionally tough, that it was like everyday rejection from my H, which was a reminder of things from the past
� The reason I could not stay in Plan A any longer, is due to the OW and staying out all at night, it was too upsetting to have pushed in my face. I would have kept up Plan A for 6 months, if my H was not in an A.
� During the whole of Plan A, I was not emotionally in a good place, and found it difficult to make sense of anything
� That my H has not emotionally detached from his parents as he adopts their negative behaviours
� That I was scared to tell people in my life how I feel about things
� That I had low expectations for a M or H.
� That my H wanted to punish me, get even and boost his ego which explains his behaviour but regardless of anything else, treated me like crap.
� That I was weak, needy and desperate and I have not stood up for myself in life
� That Plan B, has saved my sanity and I feel soo much better. I am sleeping well now, and if things are not good my sleeping always goes first�

I have some questions if anyone could answer them�.

Was my H genuinely heartbroken?

Did H want to punish me or did he want out?

Am I wasting time on my H, does he have too many issues and treated me too poorly I need to really move on?

How do I react of he offers me an olive branch? Part of me still feels very angry and would demand A LOT, if he did this�..but then I am getting guidance to just say I need 2 things, 1 No contact 2 Commitment to the MB plan

Is it time to turn up the heat and let him know I am really going out of the door and see how he reacts? I am thinking of changing the locks and getting rid of the rest of his stuff�

Sorry for all the questions!!

My mind is thinking this is my plan�.

Stay in Plan B until Jan 1st 2011, then file for D.
If my H offers olive branch before then, he needs to seek IC for his behaviour (hitting ect�) and address marriage issues

Thank you

Harmony.

Hi Harmony,
I think your husband is heartbroken, who wouldn't be with all that has happened between you two.
I think your husband was trying to punish you with his behavior and maybe a part of him wanted out to live the life he is living now...........
I think anyone that wants to change for the better can, everyone knows right from wrong.......
I think if he made the changes you need to see then I don't think it would be a waste of time to consider another shot at the marriage.
I think you have to move on from the past Harmony, the life you left behind wasn't a good one........
If he offered you a olive branch then certainly you would demand No Contact with any other woman.........
He would have to commit to a structured MB program and do the work it takes to self evaluate and work on his own issues........
I think your Plan sounds very doable and reasonable.......
It's alright to have lots of questions and re-evaluating going on, this is how we learn and accept our decisions, these are big ones so it will take a lot of mulling and thinking.........
Harmony in the meantime you have grown and become stronger as an individual and you are setting some boundaries in place for yourself and this is turn will give you a sense of self worth ............
I'm proud of you so far, it takes strength to admit your own mistakes and then put up boundaries so the people around you don't disrespect you..........

Hi Jessi

Thanks for your response, it hurts to know that there is another life he chooses over me, but I guess that is what is going on.

Still keep having weird dreams about him, last night I dreamt that he was in lots of pain and made another attempt to get in contact with me.

We sat down and talked and he was no longer foggy, or angry or difficult and we agreed to a plan. That was nice

HA HA in my dreams right.

Harmony,

Nobody here can answer questions 1 and 2. Nobody knows whether your H was heartbroken and whether he wanted to punish you but him.

Really, it isn't necessary for you to know the answers to these questions, either. They will not affect what happens in the future. What will matter is whether your H is committed to you and the marriage if he comes back, and whether he is remorseful THEN about what he has done.

I wouldn't like to attempt a definitive answer to no.3, except to say that you can recover your marriage despite his poor treatment of you in the past. What matters is his treatment of you from the present onwards. If he is to end his poor behaviour, though, he must work daily at changing his behaviour. I don't think anyone can tell you whether that will happen.

The decision whether to cut your losses and move on is a difficult on that only you can make. There isn't any scientific formula that will tell you whether continued investment in the marriage will pay off. Your age is a factor in your decision, because if you hold on for a few years and the marriage does not recover, you will have missed your chance to have a family.

Question 4: If your H wants to go back, he needs to demonstrate that his affair has ended and make a commitment to MB recovery. The MB programme already demands a lot of the FWS. If you like, please list your demands here; I think we could show you that they are all implied in Dr Harley's programme for marital restoration.

I would change the locks and remove his stuff if the alternative allows him to enter the home and break Plan B. I think I would change the locks anyway.

The January date is entirely yours to call, but I would not inform H that there is a deadline.

If you want IC or other treatment to be a condition of his return you need to specify this in your Plan B letter. H should show that he is already on a treatment programme before he contacts you asking to go back. His organising this would be a sign of his commitment. Do not allow him to return with a plan to arrange this later.

I can't remember whether you've given him a Plan B letter. I'll read now.

Hi SC

Thanks for your response, been for a nice run down the seafront today, managed to get on the beach but tide was in.

I agree with your points and believe you could be right.

I think we have both bought issues into this M and feel that H was very heartbroken by my A, as I was perhaps the first woman he felt he could trust and feel safe with and I let him down.

I think maybe I need to push on more as though I am moving towards D, he has not been to the house all week, since I ignored his phone calls Sat, and my crystal ball is telling me he is really hacked off I ignored his birthday.

My Plan B letter was not very MB, I was a bit hacked off at this point. To be honest he was so foggy and confused that I could have written anything and he would have ignored it.

I still feel quite in conflict with him myself, I am also concerned if I write him a Plan B letter he may go and show it to people.

I was reading some previous threads and also speaking to SH, if he comes into the house again whilst I am here trying to get my attention, I could just then let him know that until he wants to end contact with OW, seek IC and commit to MB program there is nothing left to talk about.

The list I feel at the moment before I could take him back would be;

Remorse for his actions
NC with the OW
A phone call and appt initiated by him with SH

There are other things though that concerns me such as OW works at the golf club, so he would have to leave there....

What do you think?

Thanks all,

Harmony

Sounds like a good list to me. You have a start there anyways cuz SH will bring up any other issues like him needing an IC to deal with.....and so on.