Road let's take this t/j away from wanthealing's thread so that one can get back on track

""""""""What is wrong with teaching a child the actions of one or a few can ruin things for many/ every one else?"""""""""

sorta like a Marine that messes up and the whole division suffers

trouble is we are talking about a child and there are many more lessons to be taught also

""""""""I never said the oc should never know the bio od (other dad). I said that she has to wait until she is 18""""""""

and what is wrong with teaching a child that you can stand tall after being knocked to the ground and still hold your head up high, look the evil in the eye and not be afraid?

another good lesson ehh?

do they deserve to pay for 2 dim witted adults?

also as has been pointed out here many times that oc often harbors resentment toward the same parents who spent 18 years raising and nurturing her/him because they kept that secret from her/him. where's the truth you are always talking about?

"""""""""I remember you stating that you went after the OM for CS as your main reason. Then you wishing you never had because you don't want to deal with OM any more.""""""""""

wrong. Yes i did go after him for cs but that was not the main reason. there were many reasons why i felt he should be responsible. 1st and formost i am programed that way. take responsibility for your actions, then in no particular order - i had raised a son in a split home and fullfilled my responsibility even tho there were some really difficult situations, my age in life, my family health history, the size of my family, what would fh do financialy if something should happen to me (she would need all the help she could get), that om and us lived in the same town and our kids went to the same schools (interaction was inevitable), there was no quarantee that he would not walk back into my life 5, 10 or 15 years down the road.

the reason i ever considered letting him walk away was because of the hard time my w and grace were having with visitations. not that i didn't want to deal with him.

even tho i put that on the table it was always against what i felt was right. i was willing to go against my own beliefs for the best interest of those 2 very important people in my life

""""""""Is this why you backed away from dealing with the OM on OC drop offs and the such. Dumping this on your WW?"""""""""

nothing was dumped on my w. we actually go together 99% of the time for drop offs (om picks her up from school). she usually drives so i am the one who gets out and goes to the door 90% of the time.

she does handle the text messaging to him when needed for time changes or soccer game times , etc. i am afraid that i would not be very verbally diplomatic with him. i would be very short and probably call him some things that would not be respectful in any stretch

"""""""""""You demanded CS and were willing to handle contact with the OM so your WW could have NC.""""""""""

and this exactly what happened until i felt comfortable and started trusting my w again

i also decided to never go thru this type of fight again. if my w wanted out she was free to go. what good is a w or relationship if you have to keep interagating her all the time or checking up on her 24/7? kind of a crumby way to live don't ya think?

"""""""""""""No wonder why you have stated in the past that your WW has regretted letting you go after the OM for CS. It has forced her hand to break NC with the OM because you have dumped your part of the agreement to handle contact with the OM and left dealing with the OC and OM your WW job now."""""""""""

again wrong. read above. nothing was dumped on anyone

this brings me to another interesting point. while i believe that the POJA is very important i also believe that there are some instances where it is simply not going to happen.

my case is a prime example. fh and i were on complete opposite sides of c vs nc and the cs issue.

we never did come to an agreement on it. she eventually relented and saught the cs because she knew it was a breaking point for me in our marriage.

now 10 years down the road we are still married with a whole family and although not perfect are doing very well and communicating better then in many many years. our problems do not have anything to do with contact with om

do i support nc? certainly

do i understand why some choose that path? most definately

do i think it is the only way? no

Hi pops! I have not read every post and maybe I am missing something, but I wanted to address the comment above. It is not a given that "children should know their parents." Sometimes that is not in the best interest of the child. Especially if the child is an OC. In that case it is not in the child's best interest because getting to know the OM would be a threat to his legal parent's marriage.

The presence of the OM in all their lives is a enormous threat that is likely to lead to eventual divorce. Most BS would rightly not tolerate such a dangerous invasion into their lives. [nor should they because it is not good for their mental health] So really, there is nothing altruistic or compassionate about continued contact with an affair partner. It is just a dangerous risk for absolutely no good reason. It is a risk to the child because it risks the marriage. Divorce is devastating to children, as I can personally attest.

Dr Harley has spoken extensively about this on his radio show and if you have questions, you email or call him about his stance. He posted this a while back on this very forum:

pops, if your wife is in any contact with the OM, then you shouldn't trust her. That is untrustworthy behavior. You should never trust her. It was too much trust that led to her affair. Rather than having trust, Dr Harley recommends having boundaries. Very strict boundaries. Step #1 in recovery from an affair is to NEVER have contact with an affair partner again.

"also as has been pointed out here many times that oc often harbors resentment toward the same parents who spent 18 years raising and nurturing her/him because they kept that secret from her/him. where's the truth you are always talking about?"

pops

Never said to lie or hide the existance of the OM/bioD. Making her aware in age appropriate ways as one would do when a child was adopted.

The points I rasied about you regreting going for CS and your WW regreting going for CS and keeping the OM in your lives have come from your own posts here on MB. And I am not going to look and cut and paste to show you.

"do they deserve to pay for 2 dim witted adults?"

No. Does any one deserve to have polio?

Born with autism?

Some are lucky and a never have a cross to bear. Some are lucky enough that others can't see their cross. Some can never hide the cross they bear.

When a person makes a bad decision sometimes cause a manure sandwich to be made and they have to eat it.

An affair because there are always at least two people making a bad decision so much more manure is made then can be put into a sandwhich so a manure pie is made.

The WS and the OP get a slice to eat, however there are many slices left over thats why the BW and BH get a plate full then the COM, the OC, enablers, grandparents, siblngs, friends.

Some derseve the slice they get some don't. But as in war and an affair is a war on the marriage and family there will always be colateral damage. Noncombatants have no control when the manure hits the fan.

So as I stated before and will state now the OC learns that it only takes one or a few to ruin things for many or all.

The good suffer with the bad.

The OC learns that in life the good sometimes have to pay the consequences even when they did nothing. As with the banking and economic crisis. I did not cause GM to lose money. I did not participate in or cause the mortgage crisis. I did not allow trade with China. I did not allow outsourcing or illegals insourcing us out of jobs.

The OM has no call to complain that he has to stay out of the OC life until they are 18.

The OM chose to sneak in and exploit what was not his.

Pop's has the OM in your OC's life told how why she was concieved by the OM?

What has the OM told the OC?

What have you told/taught your OC about her status and affairs, the OM WW and your part in this?

Alot of kids resent things that are in their best interest. I resented the fact that my mother wouldn't allow me to stay out all night when I was a teenager. I resented the fact that she wouldn't let me drive a car at age 14. What matters is what is best for the marriage. And what is best for the child is to have an intact family with happy, in love parents. That is best achieved by having no contact with the adultery partner.

I'm curious, but exactly how do you do this when OM isn't around and isn't part of the OC's life, as in my case. My OC is 2, so obviously not old enough to understand. But there is going to be some point in her life where we will have to tell her, and I'm afraid that she will see everything about her life up until that point as a lie, and that she will be angry about that. But how can you possibly make her aware of the situation all along when she doesn't see OM? This is my dilemma, and while I don't think I would want to do things as Pops has done, his way did at least solve that particular problem. Of course it was never an option for us, since visitation with the OM in our case would have required sending an infant clear across the country, and OM didn't want to be a part of her life anyway.

writer, that is an interesting question. Why don't you email Dr Harley and see what he says?

Can I do that? I've never been able to afford the online program, though I have always wished I could do it.

Melody, while i appreciate and understand the positions and principles that Dr Harley has put forth I will reinterate my position from real life experience that "in this situation where an OC is a piece of the puzzle, "nothing" is black and white. There is no one certain set of rules to follow that will guarantee success in preserving the marriage"

All one has to do is read the various threads on this site and others to see that even people following the Harley methods to the t have continueing problems. FTR I have only read on this site and one other (SB)and now just here again.

""""""pops, if your wife is in any contact with the OM, then you shouldn't trust her. That is untrustworthy behavior. You should never trust her. It was too much trust that led to her affair. Rather than having trust, Dr Harley recommends having boundaries. Very strict boundaries. Step #1 in recovery from an affair is to NEVER have contact with an affair partner again.
"""

I am far past "step 1 in recovery". and for the 1st 3 - 4 years the only contact my w had with om was in the courtroom. she changed jobs for far less money then she was making. giving up her seniority and starting over.

My w is completely transparent in all her communications with om. If after 10 years I didn't trust my w then I would not still be married to her.

You see by your statement above you are suggesting by "strict boundaries" that I keep survallence on my w 24/7. What kind of relationship would we have if there was "no" trust. How can forgiveness be complete without eventually regaining trust?

Forgiveness is a word that gets thrown around on these sites quite often. The statement for "the need to forgive but not forget. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself"

Trust me I haven't forgotten. Having 5 teenage and young adult children I am reminded often of the heart aches that go along with living thru broken relationship as they struggle to find happiness in their lives.

To much trust was not and is not the reason that my w fell into her A. AND it is not the main reason that many (not all) fall into A's.

NOTE**** true this may be just my own humble opinion but read on

Without trying quote Dr Harley, don't the MB principles say that most A's are the result of unmet emotional needs?

Don't those needs became unmet because "we" become complacent and lazy in our marriages?

You see I refuse to stay in a marriage where I can't trust my w. Yes there was a time when that happened. It was a long 2 - 3 years in our 36 year (31st wedding anniversary next month) relationship. BUT to continue that kind of relationship makes no sense to me

The OC does not have to meet the OM to be told about how they came into this world.

Every thing in there life will not be a lie because as with an adoption the child is told as soon as they can understand the concept of adoption. About 4 years old. In simple terms and to the point with no details. As the child grows up and asks more questions then you tell to next appropriate age level. Let the child help to set the pace of discovery.

4 years old: mom and the OM had a baby (you) Dad loved both you and mom so he brought mom and you home from the hospital to join the family.

6 years old: How did OM and you have a baby and not daddy like my siblings? Because mom used the OM to be your birth dad.

8 years old: How is a birth dad different then "dad"? People are humans but reproduce like other creatures. You know about birds, they lay eggs and then the eggs hatch an out comes new baby bird. Some animals keep their eggs inside until the creature is ready to be born. Then out comes a live baby. As the momma dogs give birth to live puppies, human mommas do the same so there.

10 years old: What is it that I look a lot different then my siblings/don't resemble dad or his family? Birth dad means bio dad. The OM's DNA was used when mom got pregnant. Why/how? I allowed the OM DNA to come in contact with my eggs.

12 years old: How was the OM's DNA able to get you pregnant, how did it touch you? Females have eggs inside of them, males have sperm. The man places the sperm into the woman and the egg becomes fertilized with the DNA from that males sperm. Then this is the time to explain how that the mom got pregnant from the OM because they had an affair. Mom dated OM while married to "dad". Mom allowed the OM to ferilize her eggs with his sperm.

This then leads into a discusion of why affairs are wrong.

Remember NC is for every one. There is now shipping off the OC for visitation across the street or across the country. The WW and BH don't need the OM presence or participation to educate the OC about his contribution.

Ugh.

W1
Before you jump of the cliffs of insanity, what do you mean by "ugh"?

I disagree. Those that follow his rules have a very high rate of success: 90%+. That cannot be beat. What I see here are many marriages that have suffered from not following Dr Harley's principles.

And lets look at your "real life experience" compared to Dr Harley's if we are going to dismiss his advice. So far, you have one screwed up marriage and he has saved thousands. He didn't screw up his marriage, pops, and you and I did. So who am I am going to listen to? Keep in mind that he is a professional who has saved thousands of marriages using these principles and has the track record to prove it. Can you and I produce a track record that beats his? Of course we can't.

Sure, there are no guarantees, but the risk of destroying a marriage is greatly increased by not following his expert, professional advice.

Yes, it is very black and white when it comes to contact with the OP and recovery of marriage - Dr Harley has made that clear over and over and over again:


here

It doesn't get any more black and white than that, my friend. No contact, no contact, no contact..... Period.. Nothing "gray" about that.

And yes, I know some marriages might still be together who ignored his professional advice. I also know people who smoked 4 packs of cigarettes a day and have no health problems. Does that mean its wise to tell people to smoke? Of course its not.



Unfortunately, your trust is foolish and misplaced in the absence of sane boundaries. It was too much trust that led to her affair in the first place. You already KNOW what happens when she is around the OM yet you continue to take that foolish risk. What you are doing is the equivalent of saying you trust her to go drunk driving. Your wife had a wreck while driving drunk and your "solution" is for her to be a better drunk driver. How does that make any sense? Dr Harley's solution is to STOP DRUNK DRIVING.

What you are advising here is dangerous and not in line with Marriage Builders.

Here is what Dr Harley says about this:

here


here

And this is what I hear from you, pops. You don't understand the nature of the addiction of the affair and don't recognize that risk. That is how affairs start, when one does not recognize the risk and therefore takes no precautions. This is like trusting me, a recovering alcoholic, to go hang out in bars occasionaly. Pretty soon I would be back to drinking again. A more sane approach would be to stay out of bars and remove the temptation. Every time your w sees the OM, her feelings are triggered. I have no doubt that continued contact has had to affect the intimacy in your marriage whether you admit it or not.



You should not have any trust, pops. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. Your marriage has no sane boundaries and the absence of boundaries means it is insane to trust. You don't really mean "trust" when you say you trust her, what you mean is that you choose to stick your head in the sand.



I don't believe you, because I don't believe you really trust her. Your idea of "trust" is to stick your head in the sand and pretend like you can trust an untrustworthy person. That is not trust, that is pretense.

pops, ya know I love ya, but I am alarmed that you have some very dangerous views about marriages and don't seem to understand the risk to your marriage. Recovery from an affair *IS* very, very black and white, my friend. This is not something you can play around with. I have been here for 10 years now and know of untold resumed affairs and divorces that came about from following your kind of advice. It is dangerous advice you are passing out.

Could you really imagine having that kind of conversation with your 4, 6, or 8 year old? Really?

This is totally different from adoption. Adoption is pretty commonplace. It is accepted in our society. The adopted child will probably know other children who are adopted. There are books parents can use to help explain the situation to the child. There is no social stigma attached to being adopted.

There really is no such template for an OC.

You can email Joyce and have her read your question to Dr Harley on the radio show. It is free and they will even send you a free book. She will email you back and ask you to call in and talk to Dr Harley. If you don't want to call, he will answer your question and you can listen to it on the radio show that day.

jharley@marriagebuilders.com here

Thanks Melody.

writer, I got about half of my books free by calling and emailing the radio program. They love giving stuff away free!!

pops, let me demonstrate my point another way. I am an alcoholic who has not had a drink since April 27, 1985. That is almost 26 years.

Do you think I should be "trusted" to go hang out in bars?

This is not entirely true.
There is social stigma, albeit mild in most cases.

I once over heard our son's best friend say to our son

"Well, that's not your REAL mom,". They were about 6 & 7 years old.

I inserted myself into that conversation right then, right at that moment.

I said to both of them.
"I am his real mother because I am here doing all the Mommy the work.
Never say this to our family again!" (stern face)

This was fine ... until the terrible teen years arrived.
Then, I heard the following from our son:

"You're not my real Mother. I don't have to listen to you." <~~~ spoken with a sneer and enough venom to kill an entire roach motel.

I did not flinch.

I said:

"OK. If I am not your real mother I am no longer obligated to provide nice things for you. That includes cooking for you. Make your own food from now on.
Get yourself to where you want to go."

Kids can be vile.
But, kids have an excuse, they are kids.

My point:
It's going to come up.
It might be used against you by outsiders.
AND it probably will be used against you by the kids themselves.
But, love will win in the end.
It will.