Hello all,

Before you say it, I am sorry I am here. I hope Melodylane, Schoolbus and some of the veterans here can give me some invaluable inputs.

I have read the entire website, subscribed to the radio and the read the forums thoroughly. I have also ordered SAA and the LB books and am some way through HNHN. I intend to set up a few sessions with the Harleys in the near future.

I am both a BS and FWH, my wife too is a BS and FWW. I discovered her A's about 6 months ago and she had known about my A a year and a half ago. Since before the discovery/admission of her A's we started on rebuilding our M and stumbled upon MB a few months in.

Here are a few of the issues I am struggling with (I say 'I' since I feel the 'we' is not together in the Recovery stage entirely):

Issue #1: Lack of O&H on her part - especially with regard to her A's; she had trickle truthed me for the first few months which explains the numerous DDays in my signature. I am still very unsure if she has told me everything or responded honestly to my queries. Part of me feels that she has lived with the 'secret memory of her A(s)' for so long that the A's are more a part of her than this marriage ever was. Her first reactions were of denial, gaslighting me for months, trickle truth, giving me fog babble and eventually what feels like to me justifications of why it 'had to happen' and how A's were unavoidable in our situation and her own problems from her childhood contributing to her perceptions on relationships and fidelity. By no means do I wish to defend my own A. On initial discovery (more than a year ago), in my wayward fog, I turned it around and blamed it on her (which is part of the reason I believe led to her second A). But since we both 'came clean' in June, I have striven hard to be completely O&H with the expectation that she reciprocate and is sincere about recovering our marriage.

I know now that I had HUGE LBs on my part (AO's and DJ's) which have contributed to her being very protective and cagey (and having a secret second life to boot) almost all through our M. I recognise the signs of controlling behaviour and being verbally abusive on my part which I feel very remorseful for and have been working on fixing. I also know that she opened up to me this year since she felt I had changed (this was before the discovery of her A's but while 'resolving' through my own A without MB help). I also know that she had a very controlling father and always lived with a sense of guilt which she says causes her to be reserved (and also lie a lot) through our relationship. That and the fact that her parents lived together in a very dishonest marriage for 20 years before a very messy divorce.

I have tried to provide her a safe environment throughout the DDays and have minimised (I cant honestly say entirely eliminated) any AO's specially with respect to what she has told me about the A's. I know she has issues with telling me about her A's also because we are (what I had supposed to be) religious and morally upright people which was a huge reason we got married in the first place.

Now we are at an impasse; where I feel her dishonesty (not only about the A but also her own feelings and generally opening up to me or communicating) is LBing me to no end and her trickle truth of the months past has left me in a place where I am unsure if she is sincere about the recovery, or whether her EA's were just that (sure feel like more), or whether there is more that I dont know of, or whether I can trust her narrative at all (she has previously made lies of both ommission & commission and I had to 'discover' a lot myself before many of the admissions). Some days it feels like she attempts honesty-but only to the extent she feels fit (feels like like she is almost trying to rig a recovery on her terms and not on MB principles/PoRH). It seems she feels she has made a mistake by telling me anything at all or admitting to her now recognised EAs (first it was 'just friends', next what?). She is scared that now that I 'have the goods on her' I can act as I did previously (AOs, DJs & SDs) with the added advantage of being able to torment her about her A's. She speaks little, if any at all, about my PA though I want her to and want 'us' to jointly recover from it. She asks why I didnt have an A before I did, given the situation in our M of not meeting each others ENs and committing LBs all over the place. I really believe we both want a complete and full recovery but are severely disabled by lack of O&H.

I just want to know-did she or didnt she have a PA(s) or has she truly told me all? (as she claims - but had claimed many times before). Is she a serial cheater? (since many of her EA's were 'one night chats' with a multitude of men spanning over a year the first time around and around 3-4 months the second time around and 2 of them were more drawn out over a few months, including one with an ex-BF whom she still associates with her fondest memories). How does one deal with a deceptively clever liar and a perceived serial cheater rolled into one?

Issue #2: LBs in both directions... I dont wish to justify any LBs on my part; we sometimes fight and I flare up in argument (raised voices on both sides but I usually have the last word) and she goes silent. I feel she punishes me with her silence and not communicating with me, I usually am quick to apologise and my AO's are less frequent since finding MB (I can recall one or 2 in the past 3-4 months with one just yesterday-which led to this email). However, I realise that AOs are not acceptable at all and I truly deeply am trying and am somewhat successful in eliminating them. I feel she has less concern about her own LBs and she doesnt think too much of the deception/lack of honesty on her part (in comparison to her problems with our marriage), or that certain behaviour of hers causes me much annoyance and discomfort (could those be SD's?).

Issue #3: No/lack of time for 15 UA. Regardless of us having difficulty in managing with the 3 children, I feel she has more control in choosing UA with me and she avoids it unless its 'non-communicative' - i.e.: watching a movie, SF or getting some 'affection time' cudddling or being together. She wants to avoid talking, has a problem telling me her thoughts and feelings and NEVER wants to address the A's. Most of the DDays were 'forced'/coerced by me and any affair related talk since has been initiated mainly by me-for both our A's; but primarily hers.

On the plus side: we've both been reading up (MB and other sources) and trying to fulfill each other's top ENs.

Before I get hit about lack of detail or admission of my own A:

I feel very ashamed about my own PA which was with an old flame and I'd pin down more to opportunity rather than any emotional attraction. During the A I tried to end it many times which explains its sporadic nature and multiple NCs before the final MB approved one. I felt I had debased myself and had become worthless in my own eyes-I felt that I was risking everything I had; my wife and children for nothing but momentary pleasure. I never denied the A to my wife nor did I try justify it in any self-righteous way; i knew and am still convinced that it was an entirely selfish addiction with no justification and an unforgiveable breach of trust. My only sense of just compensation for my BW comes from not with holding any information about the affair or the details of the OW or anything that led to it or happened after it. NC was established early on in the MB process - even though the A was in NC for months prior to that.

My wife initially told me of how betrayed and lost she felt (part of the justification of her second spate of EAs) but I feel she blindsided me since she had had her first spate of As years prior to mine.

Seems like we are regressing into a time of lack of intimacy and closeness with the added weight of complete lack of trust and losing faith in one another...

In short... HELP!

My further questions to the veterans are:
1. Can the fog of an A last for 5 years after the A is over? and why? Does it indicate she is still 'in love' with POSOM or that she might still be holding on to more secrets about the A (or As she hasnt told me about)?
2. How does one deal with the strong sense of bitterness over the many years the A was a secret (most of my marriage in my case) which throws every single memory, every child birth, every shared moment into doubt. Like nothing was ever real...

Hi bxhubby, welcome to Marriage Builders. There is alot here and I hardly know where to start but a couple of things really stood to me. So I will start there.



I think you understand that you can't afford any AO's. Every time you have an AO, she goes into withdrawal from you. That is why she is silent. She is not punishing you, she can't stand you. Her emotions tell her to go into protect mode. Your "apology" does nothing to undo the damage you did with an AO. So if you want to recover your marriage, you need to just knock it off. Completely. Every time you have a relapse, you just prove to her you have not changed.

And maybe certain behaviors of her trigger your AO's but that is no excuse. You have to stop.

And that leads to my first suggestion. Read the book Lovebusters together and follow the program in there and eliminate lovebusters. You should also get the workbook that goes with it and do the lessons in it. [it is cheap on this website] Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook


Are you enjoyable to be around? You sure don't sound like it to me. And every time you have an AO, she will want to avoid you for about a week. That was how I reacted to my H's AO's. I didn't want him to touch me for about a week. I couldn't stand him. In your situation, you not only have AO's, but it sounds like you constantly grill her and badger her to tell you her feelings. Am I reading that right?

If you want her to WANT to be around you, you have to be pleasant, pleasant, pleasant. You should be attractive. If you take a woman out on a first date do you have angry outbursts and badger her for her thoughts and feelings? Heck no! You focus on being as pleasant as possible.

When you get that workbook, there is a worksheet in the very back. It is the UA worksheet. Take it out and make several copies. Until you get it, I would focus on being as pleasant as possible. When you get the books, go to your wife and tell her you have a plan to restore the romantic love in your marriage. Talk to her about doing the Lovebusters lessons and about the importance of UA time.

Can you swing marriage coaching or the online program at MB? If you can, that would be the fastest, most effective horse. It is pricey, but worth every penny, IMO.


Is she still in contact with any of these men? Has your marriage been completely affair proofed? Since your wife had inappropriate boundaries with men, has that been stopped? Do you snoop on her?


They replace the bad feelings with a great, satisfying, romantic marriage.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I think I need to hear a lot of this.


Pleasant? You're right, I am not. I usually am around friends and colleagues-but a lot of our problems cause tension and frustrations (plus the added weight of the A's and dishonesty just seems to have killed something inside of me). I know I HAVE to be 'at my best behaviour'. I need help and pointers on how I can be pleasant (I buy gifts, flowers and treats and take her out for dinner ecery once in a while) but in general I might have forgotten how to be pleasant around her. Believe me-I need coaching on this one.

About the online program and one-on-one with Steve-I will as soon as I come into some money, am struggling a bit with the finances right now.


Snooping is what opened up this whole can o' worms. I know she hasn't had any inappropriate contact since the A's were revealed/discovered. I installed a keylogger on the home PC and we have been transparent with each others phones from DDay #1. She is a stay at home mom-so she doesnt have any other access to PCs (as far as I know). Having said that, she is pretty smart and crafty - in that she knows her way around computers and phones and can pretty much clear her tracks if she wanted to (except maybe getting around the keylogger-which she does know about now). I still occasionally check her phone logs/messages for inconsitancies, her email accounts and her online activity. She did tell me how she managed to hoodwink me in both instances and how the A's were so effectively covered up. I can say I am 98% sure she is in total NC with any OM, however-since I feel there are many details missing I am unsure of what the triggers and moddes of contact were/might be. She has yet to initiate NC letters/emails to 2 of the recent OMs and she says she honestly forgot the name/any contact details of one of the purpoted EA partners from 5 years ago-but this was the one which went pretty deep and she crossed many boundaries with so I cant be sure if I can believe her.



Agreed, I meant it in the context of feeling bitter while trying to be on my best behaviour and save this marriage.

ok, this all makes me very nervous, especially the part about her knowing about the keylogger. That renders it pretty well useless. If she knows the brand she can easily disarm it. If she knows about your snooping method, consider it rendered futile. You need to NEVER tell her about your snooping tactics. What if you removed the old keylogger that she knows about and installed another one that she can't detect? Such as eblaster? If she knows about the other keylogger, she is probably disarming it. eblaster would pick up everything. It is about $100 and you can get it over on spectorpro.com. The nice thing about it is it will email you hourly reports of her activity.

Has she removed any and all social networking software from that computer? What steps have been taken to ensure she doesn't do this again?

The book Lovebusters will help alot in this regard. But you can stop AO's today. Every time you have an AO it undoes all the good you did the previous month. It is a hole in the bottom of a bucket that you are trying to fill with lovebank deposits.

Thank you for your responses.

She has been trying O&H since discovering MB. I know she volunteers a lot of information but not as much about the A's. I will be more careful about my snooping moving forward until some semblance of trust is restored.

There are no social networking site/programs on any PCs at home, infact her FB and hidden FB accounts as well as her hidden email account were first to go.

I have ordered the LB and SAA books from my local bookstore who should have them by next week.

Stopping AO's does make me simmer below the surface and she sees that clearly, I am managing my anger better though but it causes me to disengage a bit.

I am learning that by keeping my trap shut, I can avert some major issues. I do understand that being pleasant is more than just that and I need to work a lot at it.

Usually I am very transparent about my feelings and thoughts and cant hold things in. Which also explains my dire need for O&H from her and how I thought through the years I was getting it and suddenly it turns out there was none...

Any responses to the other points I raised? I am sorry-I know its a lot of detail. I just thought it a good idea to put it all in one post rather than multiple mini-posts. This way, I feel, the context is preserved.

Thanks again,

Cheers.

Check this out:

Angry Outbursts

Fog only lasts if the WS is still doing something wrong. That could mean continued contact or lying or withholding of information. The fog is created when the mind needs to alter reality to rationalize bad behavior.


Here is the source of the fog: she is withholding facts. You need the facts about her affairs in order for both of you to move forward. This is information about your life that is being wrongfully withheld from you.