Yeah, I suppose it did ... not that she thinks or says it (that I honestly laugh at) but that anyone else would take her word or sympathize with her. That bothers me.

Part of me wanted to defend myself, but I didn't. My family either knows in their hearts that I'm the real victim or they don't. No point in debating it. Although I did want to include that paragraph about me being the victim ...

I did call her a repulsive w**re a couple times within a week of finding out she had sex with my husband. If that makes me an abuser, it is news to me.

Thanks for this, Scotland. No contact period. I'm one step closer after blocking her texts.

DDD,

My sister slept with her daughter's husband.

The result was that the couple tried to reconcile, but never could, and ended up getting a divorce. It was awful for my niece.

That was about 10 or so years ago.

For a very long time, my niece would not have contact with her mother. She felt much better about life then.

Only her three sisters bugged and bugged her for this "forgiveness" thing, to make the family happy, and the grandkids happy.

No one seemed to give a good crappola about whether or not my niece would be happy. After all, she was "ONLY" the victim.

So she tried to reconcile with her mom.

To this day, my niece tries and then has to pull back again - and has done this over and over and over. It has caused her no end of grief and stress.

She says she wants to forgive her mom, and so she tries to have contact. Only when she sees her mom's face


in person


it is all she can do to keep from either attacking her or withering away inside.


I told her that it is okay to never see her mom again. Somewhere in there, she knows this is true. The problem is


her stupid family will NOT let her have no contact


because they are all so stupid they have overlooked the fact that she suffered an ultimate betrayal

and they only want what is good

FOR THEMSELVES.


The further outcropping of this garbage?

One of the sisters has been married four times - TWICE WERE AFFAIRAGES.
Another of the sisters had a child with her OM, while still married, then divorced her husband for the OM and they are now in an affairage. She blames the betrayed husband.

The third sister grieves over the issue, wants everyone to "get along", and so accepts the crap that the mom and two sisters dish out about my niece - and that she should just

GET OVER IT.


She will never get over it. Her mother betrayed her, and her husband betrayed her

and now the family wants to throw HER under the bus and keep on driving.




Do not break the no contact.

Your sister

is not your sister anymore.

She stopped being that person when she betrayed you.


The rest of your family, if they don't get on board


should lose out on the BEST thing they could have had

which is you
and your INTACT marriage, and healthy new life with your husband.


It is their choice. Somehow, I know they will be stupid too.




And I use the word "stupid" in every sense of the word, on purpose, because how else can anyone explain the behavior?



Your strength is in your marriage. Reach there for it, cling to it, and work the program.


If your family figures it out, fine. If not, the next Plan B you do would be with them.


I know this is harsh, but it is real. I see the fallout every day of my life, and I know where your marriage is headed if you don't exclude those who are not supporting your marriage.


They know where they can go. Just don't let them take you with them.


SB

Thank you so much for that, SB.

I wonder: how do you do it?

Do I remember correctly that you interact socially with your former abusers?

Don't you ever want to attack or feel yourself withering away when you have contact?


I no longer think of her as my sister. She is an ex. I no longer count her when I say how many brothers and sisters I have.

I have to say that my family has been pretty darn supportive, with one major exception and a handful of other stooopid comments thrown in along the way.

My struggle is that I want everyone in my family to really get it. And that's a problem I know I need to overcome because nobody else could possibly get it since they haven't personally experienced my horror.

Interestingly, two of the people who understand best what I'm going through are OWsister's SILs, who happen to be my friends.

"My struggle is that I want everyone in my family to really get it. And that's a problem I know I need to overcome because nobody else could possibly get it since they haven't personally experienced my horror."

The "horror" is that you expect everyone to have the same values as you. There is nothing wrong with your values. Nothing wrong with promoting your values. Values are a personal choice. But everyone in the end decides what values to keep. It's the price of life.

Easy to say that it's wrong to be a serial killer. Never heard of any one being for it.

Murdering unborn babies is legal and they gave it a PC name: abortion. Sadly way to many people support this value.

Thank you Schoolbus.

You have described the dynamics of an affair with a family member perfectly.

As one who walks in the same shoes as Delta it is sometimes overwhelming to not only have to fight for your M but also have to DEFEND your decisions to the very ones who should be supporting you...your family.

I was in the supermarket last night when I ran into my neice (my ex-brother's oldest daughter) and started to go up to her to wish her a Happy Thanksgiving (as I knew she would not be coming to our house) when she saw me and turned away without saying a word...

She has been recruited into supporting her father and his vendetta...

because she has been told that I am trying to "hurt her father" by having no contact with him...she has been forced into taking "sides" instead of simply understanding that no contact is the best way of dealing with the situation for ALL involved.

Delta, the thing that you and I must remember is this:

You and I will NEVER be able to EDUCATE our families into UNDERSTANDING that some things can not be repaired and all we can do is to live our lives the best we can...

and this:

The family members are not concerned with what is right and wrong...

or how much seeing your sister causes you pain...

or even what is BEST for you and your H marriage...

THEY JUST WANT WHAT IS BEST FOR THEMSELVES REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT DOES TO YOU OR YOUR MARRIAGE.

Thank you schoolbus for reminding me of that.

God bless.

Jim

For most of my kids' lives, we've spent Thanksgiving at OWsister's house, sometimes with 50+ people gathered for dinner and a ton of family staying under the same roof through the long weekend ... cousins lined up on the floor in sleeping bags watching movies, playing games, being crazy with each other.

That is the only Thanksgiving tradition my kids know.

This is year was obviously different. Apparently none of my family went to OWsister's house. And her H's sisters stayed away because they can't stand the way they've dealt with this mess.

H, kids and I stayed put and enjoyed a much quieter but very nice holiday with friends and family last night and today.

Earlier today I heard my daughter video chatting with her cousin (daughter of OWsister) ... laughing, watching old homemade movies together online. They chatted for more than an hour.

It made me sad for them, about what they've lost due to the A. I know my daughter was sad, but she didn't really let on.

I wondered what my daughter's response would be if OWsister walked in on the chat and said hello to her, so I asked her later. She said "I'd say hi I guess" but then said she should probably turn the chat off immediately. Yep.

%&*$!!!! Can you believe a 14yo girl has to deal with this? So sad.

Crazy that I have to discuss protocol with her about chatting with her cousin, her close friend, just in case her mom walks in the room.

My daughter could care less about her cousin's mother. She can't stand her for what she did and wants nothing to do with her. But she misses her cousin. She loves her cousin.

Care to offer any words of wisdom that I can share with her?

Hello Delta,

Went through the same thing with my kids talking to their cousins.

The problem I got into was this with my nephews and neices...

If they have ANY contact with their cousins (ex-brother's kids) they will hear about the conflict between you and your sister. Your sister's kids WILL defend their mother no matter how wrong she is...

because she's their mother.

The decision then is this,

Will I keep my children from their cousins to prevent contact with my sister?

Because it's a package deal.

I have lost my nephews and neices because I demanded no contact with my ex-brother and my children.

This absolutely infuriated my ex-brother who used his influence as their PARENT to form their opinions of me and the situation.

In the aftermath I have also lost my sister in law...

and now possibly my youngest son who I discovered was having undisclosed contact with my ex-brother.

My father has pretty much decided to only attend functions we specifically invite him to...He no longer invites us to his home...where there is a framed picture of my ex-brother and his family prominently positioned on the living room table. There are no pictures of me or my family.

You see, your ex-sister is NOT going to go quietly into no contact.

She is going to take as much of your family with her as she can...

and put as much of the blame on you as she can.

You are going to have to decide just how much family you are prepared to lose to enforce what you and I know is clearly right...which is no contact with ANY of your family and your ex-sister...

but the rest of the family just wants what they perceive is best for them regardless of what is right or wrong or what it does to you or your family. They WILL continue to have contact with your ex-sister and if you make it too difficult for them to do this you run the risk of them deciding to not invite YOU to family functions when there is a choice between the two of you.

You may have to readjust the parameters of no contact to mean contact with you and your H and not to mean your children as much as it goes against what I know is right. My ex-brother is an absolutely horrible excuse for a human being which you know after reading my thread...but...my children and family STILL view him as family and will CONTINUE to see him no matter how vile he is.

The choice is then up to me to decide if I want to risk being excluded from my own family to enforce no contact between my family and ex-brother or to only enforce it between myself and Mrs.Flint and my ex-brother.

God bless.

Jim

Thank you, Jim.


I will not risk losing my daughter over this, that's for sure.

She loves her cousins and wants to spend time with them. As a minor, we will guide her about ways she can spend time with them apart from their mom and apart from their house.

But in a short time, she will be an adult and will choose for herself. If I try to force NC with her aunt on her, she may become angry and bitter toward me, and rightfully so IMO.

I'm planning a meet up for all the girl cousins this summer without any of the parents. It will be at one of the adult cousin's homes, neutral territory. I want to play a role in creating opportunities for them to have quality time together in a neutral environment.

Any other suggestions?

Delta,

While I listened to the radio broadcast you shared I wondered about some of the same things you did...

What about holidays?

I went to my father and asked him to ask my ex-brother if it might be possible to alternate hosting holidays?

My ex-brother said absolutely not!!!

He KNEW Mrs.Flint and I would not attend if he was there...

So HE retained 100% of the holidays with my family and I would miss out.

Or to lose the holiday and use a different day altogether...

We then came up with the alternative solution of hosting either noon or evening...

Which required the people who were ALREADY going to two dinners because of splitting it with the other side of their marital families to try and make THREE for both my ex-brother and my family.

Sometimes we don't get to see everyone just because of the logistics of THREE get togethers for some families.

The biggest problem Mrs.Flint and I still are trying to figure out is WHAT to do about the once in a lifetime events such as weddings and funerals.

I went to the funeral of a cousins husband and it was an absolute disaster...

My ex-brother positioned himself close to my children during the funeral meal and sat as close as he could to Mrs.Flint and myself. It would, of course, be possible to JUST LEAVE however that means we suffer the loss of the fellowship with our family AGAIN just so my ex-brother can taunt us...

It's just really not possible to go at different times for weddings and funerals and I don't really feel like letting my ex-brother go to them and Mrs.Flint and I always having to decline...

Delta, Did Dr.Harley have any advice for those once in a lifetime events that you really can't miss without feeling like you are abandoning your family to maintain no contact?

If anyone has any suggestions on how to deal with those events it would be
appreciated!!!

Jim

There was a poster earlier this year who suffered a husband/sister affair who reported that SH told her that once in a lifetime events could be negotiated on a case by case basis and she COULD attend even if her sister was there. None of those events had yet occurred, though. Your extreme triggering to your brother's presence suggests that NC probably must be maintained indefinitely, and in the strictest sense.

kerala, that was me. Steve Harley told me this. His father, Dr. Willard Harley, had a different answer for me on his radio program and makes no exceptions.

Thankfully holidays will never be an issue for us. They just won't be. We have a large family living all over the country and never have everyone together at once. If I want to be with a parent or sibling for a holiday, there will always be someone available who isn't celebrating with OWsister.

I really do think my family members will rotate invitations to their kids' weddings. Time will tell, but I think they'll be respectful to me for these. I could be wrong ...

Funerals can't be rotated the same way; there's only one chance to memorialize a loved one, so I'll either need to be in OWsister's presence or miss out. I don't fret these at all though. I will have family and friends watching out for me and making sure she stays away from me and my kids.

Thanks kerala,

If my father was more on board with doing WHAT IS RIGHT instead of always trying to avoid making my ex-brother upset or thinking that he will be able to "outlast" no contact and put the "family back together" we would have a workable solution because he could mediate the funerals and weddings and formulate a plan.

We suggested to him that he inform my ex-brother that one family could attend the wedding itself and the other the reception by giving them a call when the ceremony was concluded. A similar routine for the funerals by having one family attend the service and the other the funeral meal. It would allow ALL to be there to greet the family and yet maintain no contact.

The problem is my father.

He wants to hold onto the hope that in time "through forgiveness" that there will once again be an intact family. He WILL NOT participate in anything other than putting the family back together. He does not understand the idea of permanent no contact even though we have shared REAMS of MB information. He just doesn't want to participate.

It may be possible to enlist ANOTHER family member however my father is the only one who probably could do it and not become a target for my ex-brother revenge.

Jim

I'm sorry about that Jim. I'm sorry that he doesn't get it.

Delta,

Hopefully that will work for you.

It worked the other way for us...

The family LIKED seeing my ex-brother close to us. To them it meant "isn't it nice to see them together in one place" and "maybe they are working things out" and NO ONE kept him away from us.

They would'nt have DREAMED of interfering with "us working it out" by helping to keep him away from us.

Your right about your daughter making her own choices because as soon as my youngest son turned eighteen he was in contact with his uncle...

and they had been working on him for years.

My ex-brother looked it as "winning" to get him back as family.

So will your ex-sister...

I STILL have not seen ONE member of my family stand up to my ex-brother and call him on what he did to the family.

Not one.

Because they ALL want the family back together again.

Because they don't want to "make anyone mad" or "cause a scene".

Hopefully your ex-sister will not be as vindictive as my ex-brother. But I'm afraid the accusations of your "abuse" are only the start from her as mine was years ago.

I spent a lot of time trying to get my family to confront my ex-brother about what he had done to our family.

Mrs.Flint asked why he gets off scot-free and we are being punished by the family.

I don't know the answer.

I think part of it is in what schoobus said,

They just want what is easist and best for THEMSELVES and they really don't care who is right or wrong...

They just want the family back together.

Oops, sorry Delta! I didn't recognize you...

Hello,

I'm afraid this might be a thread-jack and I probably should start another thread but I am interested in the issues raised here even if my situation is not the same because I am not in recovery.

I went to Plan B just over 2 years ago. WH is still with OW, living not far away. We have a sort of shared custody where the children (4 girls aged almost 13 to 6) spend 1 week with him and 2 weeks with me.

I feel unable to have contact with either WH or OW because it is such a trigger for me. So far all communication is by email or text and I only communicate purely logistical information about the children. He tries to have contact with me and enlists people to plead for us to 'get on for the sake of the kids' but I ignore all these messages. I have come under huge pressure to do so from all kinds of people but it is beyond me. Strangely enough the children understand and never pressure me. I think we have an unspoken agreement; that I will respect their right to have a relationship with their father and they will respect my right to not have one. That being said, their relationship with him is disintegrating and it's hard for me to see their pain.

I just wanted to hear what you have to say about maintaining NC with WH when people think you are being unreasonable.

No contact should be maintained whether people believe you are being "unreasonable" or not. Many people are extremely ignorant about the effects of adultery and their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

Either have NC or C. Making excuses only weakens your position in front of family members and allowing exceptions allows your B/OM to only put the screws to you by being on top of you or your kids. Makeing exceptions also say's daddy say's NC but daddy breaks NC.

Actions speak louder then words. Allowing lapses in NC gives the relatives ammunition that they are right not to believe in NC. That your lapses shows they are wearing you down and they will get you to give up NC.

Hello TheRoad,

I hear what you are saying about contact or no contact.

It causes pain and damages me and my family.

The question is which is worse with THE TWO SITUATIONS OF WEDDINGS AND FUNERALS.

There are certain things I have and would subject myself to intense pain for...

I would physically defend my family in a fight and have done so...

I would suffer surgery for a family member to donate an organ...

I have suffered intense emotional and physical pain to save my marriage and keep my children and the love of my life in an intact home.

There ARE things I would suffer physical and emotional pain for...

Honoring innocent family members at the end of their life and honoring family members at the beginning of their lives at their weddings is something I am willing to endure the pain of contact for. Mrs.Flint will NOT attend but I will be carrying her condolences and for the weddings her best wishes.

That eliminates entirely the question of her contact rekindling the affair.

I am man enough to endure the pain of contact for my innocent family members and not let a jacka$$ ruin the celebration of their life or the start of their new one.

Jim