I recently learned about my husband's 3-4 month affair with my sister that occurred about nine years ago. I'm told that it involved three kisses and many talks and ended when he decided to stop communicating with her about private matters.

I am crushed to say the least.

Her husband was told the truth about the affair a few months after it ended, but I was not. I was lied to. She told me that she had developed feelings for my husband (an "innocent" crush), we discussed it, she apologized, I forgave her, we moved on. My husband also lied and told me that her feelings were not reciprocated; he did not have feelings for her. I was lied to about the frequency and depth of their talks (I did know there were a few) and also about their kisses.

We were all close friends before this period (close sisters and the two men were college buddies - they introduced my husband and I to each other), and we remained close friends afterward, even going on a family trip with our kids a couple weeks after the full details of the affair were revealed to my sister's husband. This boggles my mind; he apparently forgave everything that quickly and had no problem spending several days as one big, happy group. We live a few hours away from each other and saw each other a handful of times each year and have taken a family trip together maybe 5 out of the past 9 years (usually including other siblings and their families). We consider our teenage kids to be close cousins.

I feel my husband has now been truthful about the details of the affair; however, he has a bad memory in general about details (while I remember what I was wearing on a Tuesday 20 years ago), and it occurred so long ago that he has trouble recalling what exactly was discussed. I want to know. His father had just died and he was also having other family issues, while my sister and her husband have always had a tumultuous relationship that lacks affection (other infidelities, alcohol problems, lots of dishonesty, etc.), so I know those issues were being discussed along with discussions about daily life, kids, etc. I want to know more details, but he is unable/unwilling to tell me (my heart tells me unable). He says there were no discussions about their feelings for each other but that it was more like a counseling/comfort sort of thing. He said an attraction developed on his end toward her only after the first kiss (which occurred after the three of them were together one night at their house talking about my husband's father's death and other stuff over much wine and after my sister's husband passed out on the couch - a regular occurence), but I think my sister always had an attraction to him since college days. Neither my husband nor I look back and say we were unhappy/dissatisfied with each other/having problems in our marriage at that time (and photos show just the opposite), although he says (and I know) that it was his darkest hour - he was a mess over his dad and other family issues. So, yeah, I guess that led to us having issues because of that, but not really between us ... just us dealing with those outside issues. I believe she very willingly provided a distraction for him; he wasn't the first or the last she did this with.

I have forgiven him, and we are reconciling. He is a wonderful man who treats me well, and we both feel we have a strong, solid marriage. He said that in addition to him being a coward, he lied because "it would be too hurtful" for me to know the truth, and he wanted to protect me from the pain because he had in fact learned his lesson and vowed never to put himself in the position again of having those types of talks with another female in which he could potentially make the same mistake. He says he has not since. I believe what he says, but I also would never have believed this happened (although I did sense an attraction/flirting during that period that I called him out on, which he says led to him ending his talks with her). I have no reason to believe there has been any other infidelity on his end, and there has been none on my end. He says it is �the most regrettable mistake in my life � my biggest nightmare.� We both agree now that him lying and him having any family contact with her was 100% wrong, disrespectful and insulting to me since I wasn�t able to choose for myself what I wanted the contact to be based on the full truth.

I have not talked to my sister since learning about the affair. I have written a couple letters to her expressing my desire to never to speak to her again. And that is truly how I currently feel. It's the ultimate betrayal from a sister. We have grown more and more distant over the past couple years, and I don't agree with many of her lifestyle choices (infidelities with males and females, continual attention-seeking behavior, heavy drinking, flaunting, narcissism, etc.) I've learned that she's revealed confidences I've shared with her and that she has bad mouthed me in a number of ways. She has also attempted to manipulate me as long as I can remember. I was already feeling "done" with our relationship on different levels; this new information just seals the deal. But who knows what may lie ahead in the future? As I write this, I have so much pity for her and compassion for the really bad place in life she's in and has been in for years.

While my family (other sisters) is currently understanding and supportive of my desire to severe ties with her, talk of forgiveness and healing has already begun (which bugs the hell out of me), and I fear that I will hear more and more about reconciliation as time goes on. No thanks. I don't think I could bear being in the same room with her. I find comfort in Dr. Harley's recommendation of all contact between the infidels ending for life.

Thanks for reading my story, and I would appreciate your comments. I haven't yet done a search on this forum for family type affairs, so please post links to other threads or resources about the topic if you know of any.

Delta, I am so sorry this happened to you. I want to commend you for having the good common sense to understand that it would be foolish to allow your sister back into your life.

The sad thing about your situation is that because your husband compounded the crime by lying to you and tricking you for 10 years, you have much, much more to overcome than the average adulterous affair. He lied, not to "protect you from the pain" but to protect his [censored]. At your great, great expense.

And in the bargain he allowed you to be exposed to a risky situation in which everyone knew but you. You won't be sweeping that nasty little bugger under the rug anytime soon, I am sorry to say.

How confident are you that you have the full truth now?

If she ever repents and asks your forgiveness, you might consider forgiving her. But you should NEVER be around her again. That would be harmful to your marriage. Forgiving the bank robber does mean it is wise to give him the keys to the bank.

I'm pretty darn sure that I now know the facts, but I can't say for certain, can I? I can never say anything for certain again.

I agree ... and he agrees ... that he was protecting his [censored] at my expense. He said he thought "he could have it all" -- wife, friendship, family harmony. All of them did.

Thanks for your support about me being a fool to allow my sister back in my life. I don't trust her. I don't want to start second guessing myself.

DD, you have good instincts about all this. Dr Harley is adamant that contact with the OP [affair partner] end for life because that is the only way to ensure contact does not resume.

Resuming contact would trigger both you and your H and endanger your marriage. They had romantic feelings in the past and they would have them again if the opportunity arose. Your sister is not worth all that.

Hi Delta:

Welcome to MB and the forum. I am one of the close relative affairs type. There are half a dozen of us on here, most don't post on a regular basis anymore except one who just started up.

I completely understand you and your situation. It was a double betrayal. And it may or may not have gone full PA. In my sit, it did. The one guy I trusted with my wife. . .My closest living relative, the rest of the family is gone. Sad.

Anyway, perhaps I can share a few things with you. I would hope that Jim Flint shows up. He provides excellent advice and he is part of our club that we never wanted to be in.

let's take a look at something you said:


Depending on where he was in his head, he is either telling the truth or trying to protect his ar*se. If a woman said it, well. .. But guys have this protective thing and he could very be telling the truth, especially if he was truly remorseful and understand the cliff he almost went over. Keep in mind that he did not, at the time, have benefit of understanding Dr. Harley's open and honesty concepts.

Next step: Women have far better memory than men for stuff like this. Dr. Harley has said it himself. It seems that estrogen aids memory. He says, "Oh great!" Meaning he now knows why his wife can remember every transgression he ever committed.

Men don't remember all the stuff their mates do. Aren't you glad? I mean aren't you really glad?

Does that help? What would you like to talk about?

Larry

What is PA?

Thanks for your posts, Larry and MelodyLane.

I'm not really sure what I want to talk about. Writing out my story helps. Having a sounding board about not wanting my sister in my life again helps. Hearing others' questions and having to determine the answers helps.

That's a start ...

And I see now that I maybe should have posted this thread in the recovery forum. Is it possible for a moderator to move it?

Keep it here for a while, then move it if you need to. Recovery is a good place. I don't post there very much but I used to, back when I thought I was in recovery

Drop down near the bottom of the page. Use the arrow to look at forums. Click on the one that says notable posts, then go. Read the post on abbreviations, etc.

Larry

I was reading through another thread titled "my husband had an affair with my sister" and a few points hit me.

First, one of the replies said "NC for life and your parents and siblings must be told. Family gatherings, celebrations, weddings, etc. The adults must know why the your sis and you must have NC with your WH and kids, when and if you have any. You can' let them push you to forgive and forget."

My sisters know about the affair but not my brothers or mother. My father is deceased. Do I tell them all? How should weddings and other events be handled? Should we take turns at them?

Another point: "She must become a void, a hole in the ground for you to regain your sanity. And your family must be persuaded of that singular fact."

What's the best way to persuade them? How much detail do I include about the affair?

Also, do we tell our teenage kids? It seems so cruel and unnecessary. They currently know I am not talking to my sister because she has betrayed my trust in a number of ways. They do not know details.

This is the NC letter I wrote to my sister a day after learning about the affair:

please do not ever speak to me again. please do not attempt to contact me. please do not attempt to contact (H). please stop badmouthing me to my loved ones. my wish is for all of it to end, right here and right now.

you have hurt me more than you can ever possibly comprehend. (H) takes full responsibility for his actions without any finger pointing; however i also know this: at (H)'s darkest and most vulnerable hour of his life, right after the passing of his father and during the loss of his daughter from his life, you did your thing --- that thing you do best -- with absolutely no regard for his state of mind nor any consideration for me whatsoever ... your sister, your blood. and then you allowed the utterly sick behavior to fester, and your pursued him in ways unimaginable to anyone with a hint of decency.

aside from all of that, you have betrayed my trust in so many other ways, and i am simply done with it. i am done with your lies, your deception, your infidelities, your fakery, your drama, your chaos, your manipulation ... all of it. i do not care to discuss with you any part of any thing at any time. please do not try.

please give me the space and peace in my life to move forward without you contaminating it further.

please do not ever in your life attempt to rehash any part of your relationship with (H) to any member of our family or to any of my friends. if you must, please seek a professional.

please grant to me at this time of unexplainable sorrow and in the months and years to come this one wish -- that you will close your lips and not discuss any syllable of any word concerning me or (H) with anyone in our family nor any of my friends.

just let us be.

i wish you no ill will. it's time for me to move forward without you in my life.

----------

I wrote a second letter to her -- a long, 6 page one -- that went into great detail about many issues I have with her, the ways in which she has betrayed me, and how she has shown the same destructive patterns for years. I shared this letter with my other sisters, but again, my brothers and mom know none of this.

I am told she ripped up both letters because they were "too hurtful" for her to read. I've been told that she has voiced her will not to live, how she can't imagine me not being in her life. While she apparently says the words to others that she takes responsibility for her actions, I feel she is most definitely playing the victim card (she told me in a text to leave her alone - can you imagine?), and I'm upset that two of my other three sisters have indulged her and have given her any sort of a platform to vent. I've heard the word forgiveness mentioned many times so far, but I respond that there is a difference between forgiveness and reconcilliation, and that I do not desire the latter. Besides, I told her to not contact me, so she has not even apologized. My sisters have said that time might change things between us, and they make little comments like they understand how upset she is and that they will continue to talk to her and be there for her in addition to me ... that they know what she did was wrong, but she is their sister, and they do not want to take sides because they love us both. I'm not sure if that is right or wrong of them to say to me, but I do know it hurts.

The three sisters knew about the infidelity all along; they knew there was at least one kiss ... they didn't know full details, but the cheating sister did tell one of the others that she fell in love with my husband. The cheating sister got the opportunity to tell her side way back then, but I had no idea they knew about it. My other sisters were under the assumption that I knew the full story and that the four of us decided to move on as friends years ago. I'm told none of it was ever discussed again, and they say they were surprised to learn that I didn't know everything back then.

I feel that I'm on the road to healthy recovery with my husband (more on that later), but the family dynamics are hindering my progress. I want to get this part resolved, and your guidance and insights on these issues would be appreciated.

NC for you your WH and children with the OW.

However being the affair is over a long time now the truth must come out.

The truth will protect you now and your kids when you are gone. Tell your mom, all of your siblings, and kids.

Telling my mom and my kids might be one of the hardest parts of all of this. I agree that my mom needs to know. I'm not yet convinced that my kids need to know now, during these formative teenage years. I'm confused. There are probably different arguments about this.

Delta, everyone should know about the affair. The more people that know, the more people to prevent a chance meeting; the more people to keep them accountable.

Your kids need to be told the truth about why they cannot be around Aunt X and why. They will find out eventually so its best that it comes from you and your H. Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies. Your sister is an enemy to your children and they need to know this. Dr. Harley is very clear about making sure the whole family knows. That goes double in your case, where the affair happened within the family.

Not telling them teaches them dishonesty and also puts them in s position where they might be around her and not know that she is an enemy to their family.

Dr. Willard Harley, clinical psychologist, on telling the children:

here

I don't have the words to convey how to tell your kids. Others do and I leave it up to them.

I do have the words for your sisters.

Do not expect them to take sides. What you can expect is that they will honor your wishes for no contact for life with the sister who is messed up. By all means, it is ok for you to tell them that she is playing the victim card to gain sympathy, in your opinion. Simply state that you have no expectations for them to take sides. Do suggest that they be careful because said sister has proven to be untrustworthy.

While awkward, it is your desire to have no contact with that sister for life for you and your husband. They might understand better if you mention husband. In other words, you are protecting your heart and you are protecting your husband.

You cannot control your sisters anymore than you can control your wayward sister or your husband. But you can control yourself and your boundaries. Explain to your sisters that concept and indicate the only choice they have to make is the times it will be convenient for you to have a relationship with them that does not include the wayward sister.

You don't have to write a six page letter to announce this. Simple is better. A list of wayward's emotional defects will also serve no purpose. Simple is better. Same thing with mom.

My suggestions are my own and are based on what I understand to be the concepts of Dr. Harley. I too belong to the adultery/family club, a double betrayal deal and heart breaking.

Larry

Thanks, Melody. All of that helps.

Here's something else I read about it not being my choice that there will be no contact but rather her choice (their choice) that was made nine years ago:

"Tell them that your sister and husband made an extreme choice when they had an affair, and that results in an extreme choice on your part. This pains you, and will cause hardship and pain for the family, but it is not your choice - it is a choice thrust on you by the bad behavior of two other people. This is something you WILL DO to attempt to save your marriage, and that it means many changes for the rest of the family, but that is the way it will be. Period."

I'm pretty sure the formative years come before the teenage years.

Delta, just think of all the elaborate excuses and lies you will have to tell to avoid her at family functions. And for what? To enable a couple of cheaters to avoid the consequences of their actions? That helps no one. They should be embarrassed. That will give them second thoughts about doing something so stupid in the future.

As far as your kids go, it does not help them one bit to be decieved about their aunt. If my aunt had decieved my mother in such a way, I would want to know so I could avoid her. They will find out eventually. Better to hear the true story from you and your H than to get it 2nd hand through gossip.

You are right. You are all absolutely right. That's what this forum is for ... to knock some sense into people. I will not be part of continuing a lie at anyone's expense.

My husband and I have been reading together the various agreements and articles on this site. It has been helpful. Here is his apology he wrote to me:

---

(my name), or better than that my Love of my Life,

I can not put in words how sorry I am for hurting you, the person I love the absolute most in the whole world.

I have jeopardized our marriage, love, friendship, companionship and all that we are together.

I AM SO SORRY!

I not only hurt you. I have hurt our children, our friendship with other people, your family and how you will interact with them the rest of our lives.

I have affected how your family will view you and our marriage.

I know that my actions were my decisions. They have nothing to do with you.

You gave your love and trust so freely and I have destroyed that.

I can understand the lack of trust you have in your heart. I know that it will take time to heal and maybe never will. I will work to ensure that you can trust me in the future.

I feel so much pain from my actions. I don�t know where I was that led me to my actions during that time, but I do know one thing: that I am here and that is with you for what I hope is the rest of my life. I have not and will not allow any event, action, thought, situation or excuse to place me in that environment again.

I promise you that I will come to you.

I always wanted to be your knight in shining armor. One that always loved you fullest, protected you from any care in the world, lifted you up, never ever hurt you, made you laugh and smile, make you feel like you are the most special woman in the world. I always felt that I would do these things forever. I realize that I am no better than anyone else. I have hurt the most precious cargo that I will ever carry in my life.

I realize how stupid and insulting it was to place you in such an environment following my actions. I never should have allowed that to continue after my actions.

You are the reason that I am who I am today. When people see good in me � I truly believe it is only a reflection of your goodness shining through me.

I do not know how to make up the hurt or take the pain away that I have caused. I truly do have so many great memories and love in my life, and of all the things I have done this is the biggest regret I have.

I want to be your bandage for the hurt, one that protects the wound from infection and also begins the healing process. I realize I need to place this above all else.

I do not know how you are so filled with love at this time, but I truly do see why you are and always will be such a great woman. You always have been and I know always will be an amazing woman that I am so blessed to have enjoyed my life with � simply put you are the love of my life.

I LOVE YOU AND DESIRE NOTHING MORE THAN TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE WITH YOU.

Delta, here is a summary of what it takes to recover from an affair. Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? That would be a great book for you to read together. In it, there is a plan for recovery.

here

Thanks. I just ordered that book.

Regarding the two-part recovery plan, the first part has mostly been completed, but I don't have answers to some of my questions because the affair happened so long ago, and he doesn't remember specifics about many of the conversations. This is tough. I do believe he wants to be 100% forthcoming, but I want more information than he is able to provide.

Estrogen based memory is superior. He may really NOT remember some of the details you want, or remember them a day or two later.

Larry

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Hi my husband had a fool blown affair a year ago. I found out about 2 months ago. It happened a few times over a 3 week period.

We have been talking about what could started him having an affair emotions, attention, friendship, etc He says at that time he didnt see it as an emotional attention getter but after we read surviving an affair he says see it as an attention getter. I can admit befor the affair we had grown apart and was negleting each others needs (NO EXCUSE) but it is what it is. That's all the blame I take....He also seems full of regret I know when How and possibly why...But from her all lies the when the where she blamed him for everything she didnt do anything wrong..I can say that really bothers me that she isnt taking any blame...I told her and him I was going to forgive them do I want to see her no never...Let me tell you she lived in our house for a year the affair happened about 2-3 months after she moved in I'm pretty sure it stopped when he said due to the fact she started seeing his cousin who you don't know if he's carring any deseises did I spell that right?

Im thinking can we make it yes I believe so. I have my family on my side but They are believers of face it head on don't let her deside what I'm going to do or where I'm going to do that if he truly loves me he'll know he can't talk to her or anything in that nature..

But can I handle it I'm not sure because she's not remorseful.
We are working on rebuilding what we have lost..Attention,sex etc..I hope this is a start...

Thanks for letting me ramble on your post just wanted to let you know that reading posts like ours does help and really helps put on a perspective on things...

Yes, it certainly does. I've been reading through a lot of threads this morning. So sorry that you also experienced this double betrayal.

I have zero concern about my husband wanting to speak to or see my sister, neither now or in the years following their affair. I believe it when he tells me the exact date he decided on his own to never enter into a personal discussion with her again. I trust this because he's able to tell me precisely where he was and what he said. I wholeheartedly believe he learned his lesson and just never went there again.

I do believe she pursued him after that time and would -- as of a couple months ago -- likely pack her bags if he (or many other men) showed up at her doorstep to whisk her away from her life, but she is no longer my concern.

He screwed up. A lot. He screwed up by first betraying himself into believing that speaking to another woman (this supposed "safe" woman - my sister, our friend) about the tough things going on his life would somehow be helpful. In my view, their talks were a distraction for him during his failed attempt to avoid the inner conflict he needed to deal with regarding his dad and daughter. Is there such a label as an avoidance affair?

In the process, he betrayed his wife and his kids. I was here for him then. He knew it then, and he knows it now. He said he didn't share any information/feelings with her that he didn't share with me. According to him, there was no revelation of their feelings for one another. My sister would talk to me to gather information and lend support and then, unbeknown to me, would turn around and do the same thing with him.

He betrayed me and our kids again by lying to me about all of the above for 9 years and by not protecting us and keeping us away from this woman who we continued to trust.

By the way, we did tell our kids about the affair over the weekend. Separately. There were a lot of tears and upset of course, but I was expecting it to go worse than it did.

Our daughter (14) wanted more details than her brother did and talked more about her feelings. We expected this. Our son (12) just cried and cried and had a tough time putting his emotions into words. Their main concern was how we would be proceeding as a couple, as a family, and we reassured them that we love each other and intend to work through these betrayals and heal the wounds caused by the affair and the pursuant lies.

My husband apologized for betraying me and them and for hurting me and them, he talked about his failures, what his marriage vows mean to him, what I mean to him and what he hopes our relationship will look like in 10 years and in 30 years.

We also talked about appropriate boundaries, about how actions have consequences beyond what may even be apparent at the moment and about the importance of telling the truth.

They both said they were very happy we told them the truth about this. See? I don't know how I could have felt differently just last week. Of course they want the truth. Everyone would rather know the truth. Thank you all for clearing all that up for me.

Their other main concern is how their relationship with their cousins will be affected. We told them we don't really know, but since we will no longer be going to their house (any of us!), we will try to think of creative ways for them to spend time together. They only saw each other a handful of times a year anyway, and my niece drives now, so I'm sure this will work itself out. My husband apologized for creating this problem for these four innocent kids.

It was another heart wrenching weekend. But then they were off doing their thing with friends, laughing and having fun. I learned a little from them in that respect. I've been laughing and having fun somewhat but can do a better job of creating those opportunities.

Delta, I applaud you and ESPECIALLY YOUR HUSBAND for facing the music like that. This will be such a valuable life's lesson for your children. Dr Harley speaks about how his parent's openess about his grandfathers affair changed his life. It taught him how devastating an affair could be. He cites this as a reason he has never had an affair. Your kids get to witness first hand how devastating it is and how a healthy couple overcomes it.

And thank GOD you are not damning yourself to years of lies and cover ups. What a nightmare that would be!

Bravo to you both, Delta!! you rock, my friend!

Thank you, ML. It really is just one more relief that they know. My mom knows, too. I'm waiting a couple weeks for my brothers because one of them is on vacation.


Really? I'd love to read about that. Is it in the SAA book? I'm hoping I'll be receiving that today.

Another thing about telling our kids: we looked through family photos afterward, both from that period in 2001 and from other times as well.

The photos are evidence of a happy, loving, caring family.

What we see in the photos is real. It's tangible. It's lasted for 20+ years (from the time husband and I first met).

The other stuff -- the stuff not revealed in photos -- are the lies, the fraud and the crime committed against our family. It's the stuff my husband threw in the trash on his own many years ago. But that was wrong of him. We all should have had that opportunity, and now we're finally able to throw it in the trash together.

P.S. My daughter called her aunt a wh**e. I told her I can't argue with that. She's not blame shifting though. She's mad at her dad, too.

You know, I can't remember if I read it there or not. He used to talk about it alot on his radio show, though. If you click on the radio link you can listen to reruns of his old shows. They were awesome!

This (linked video) is about one mother's dilemma.
One of her daughters is dating her other daughter's X boyfriend.
I know it's not an exact "fit" with your situation, however, I think the underlying principles expressed at the end, are a good fit.
(It's a Dr Laura YouTube) (warning for any Dr Laura haters .... just DON'T watch)

Take care.


http://www.youtube.com/drlaura

Delta,

A few pages back you mentioned forgiveness. It is a gift you give yourself, but it is also a lesson you teach your children.
With regard to your sister, you are right you can forgive but that does not mean reconcilliation. With regard to your H, the person you will help the most when you come to the point of forgiving him is...YOURSELF.

I hope you will see that your marriage has now changed now that you know the truth. I hope your H will see this as well. You two now can be really honest with one another. You can communicate at a deeper level, and you can learn new tools to make your marriage better.


God Bless,

JL

Delta,

You don't mention how you found out about the affair. Did your husband tell you or was it from some other source?

Please, don't just accept his excuses for hiding it from you for 9 years without further introspection on his part. That is absolutely selfish on his part and utterly disrespectful toward you. Lying by omission like that so he can have his life the way he chooses is even worse than the A and the double betrayal with your sister.

You can bet if your OWsis told your other sisters that she was in love with your husband, that she told your husband too!

Don't let him off lightly for what happened. This isn't a simple, classic MB type affair that once NC is established and maintained, all will be well. Your husband destroyed what should naturally be a familial relationship between you, the kids and your family.

It looks simple from this perspective. But trust me, it isn't. If your mom, a sibling, any nieces/nephews, or one of your own children fell ill or died, you now have to keep your husband away from your sis. Oh, and by MB standards, you shouldn't have any contact with OWsis ever. so for folks like us dealing with familial AP's, we go into reconciliation bending the MB rules at times.

Can you imagine not attending your mom's funeral or being at her bedside if she went ill because your betraying sis is there? Oh, and even if you are there, you're alone because of your husband's choices in his "darkest hour". He won't be there to emotionally support you because of his selfishness. NC is NC.

Re-read what I wrote above. You might be in a major position of loneliness and grief one day. Do you think that if the above situation ever occurs to you, that it will give you an excuse to cheat?

(I'm playing devil's advocate here because I read alot of anger toward your sister and alot of justification on your husband's part. There is no excuse for what he did. He's married to you. Doesn't matter if OWsis stripped nekid and pursued; he's married to you. You were available to him. He turned to someone else. You won't even have the option of having him there for support, in certain familial situations, because of his choices. I speak from experience, because my dad has a terminal illness.)

As a BS with an OWsis, I can say that this changes things in so many ways. And these changes aren't for the better when it comes to family. You, personally, become the barrier between him and her. You do the work of maintaining family ties, without his support, and keeping things "normal" with your kin, when the situation is the furthest from being so.

Your husband is more than selfish. He has no respect for his own children if he could do that with their aunt and let things go on as business as usual. Your COM were very young nine years ago. If he had been honest then, you as a couple could have put barriers in place that would have saved your children from unnecessarily developing close relationships with their cousins.

You might not be able to follow what I'm saying at this moment, but this will *hit* you eventually. Now the kids will be paying an emotional price because there will be barriers in their relationships with all of their family, not just OWsis' kids. Your children will bear the burden of these barriers.

Graduations, weddings, showers, births, holidays, etc won't be the same.

And you can expect a lot of pressure from your family to *not* have NC. They won't want to continuously deal with the implications of it. Plus, since you were "friends" and had contact with your OWsis long the A happened, your family will act like you are making a big deal of it. After all, there was plenty of contact long after the incident and "nothing more" happened, so everything should be just fine. No need to take action now, years later.

I recommend that you contact a company that does polygraphs, preferably with examiners that were former law enforcement. Put your husband to the test so you can be sure that it wasn't PA and that there haven't been any other affairs. Don't let him know that you even have contacted a company until the day he gets tested. Surprise him. Hopefully you won't have any further parking lot confessions.

trust, but verify

also, another way to get to the bottom of things w/o sweeping his actions under the rug is to ask questions like, Who initiated? where did the kiss(es) happen? How? why didn't it go to a physical affair?

I'm sorry delta. They were definitely sharing something in their conversations if there were 3 kisses. And it seems odd that things didn't go further than kissing. kwim?

Thanks, RMJ, for your post.

My husband told me about the affair but only after I questioned him about it after something didn't click right with what another sister said to me. This is after I had gotten into a big fight with my cheating sister and had kind of come to the conclusion that I just couldn't stand to be around her anymore. But my husband had no choice than to tell me; he was cornered.

I know that in this thread I have not expressed the shock I've felt, the trauma, the unending sadness, disbelief, anger and outrage. It's been a living hell. All of these feelings of mine have mostly been directed at him, but yes, it's been directed at her, too.

At the time I started this thread, I was focusing my attention on family aspects of this situation, and that's mostly what's come across to all of you. But that's just one part of this messed up story. He has not escaped my wrath.


What do you suggest I do other than a polygraph? I will definitely take that suggestion of yours into consideration.

What does letting him off lightly mean? In your opinion, should I be mean to him or refuse to speak to him or act pissy toward him for a long time? <-- honest question


I agree and have thought about all of these types of events (over and over and over) and about the fact that I will want him by my side at them. I foresee that I will want to bend the NC rules at times, mostly for weddings and funerals. I'm pissed as hell at him AND her both for putting me and the rest of the innocents in this horrible predicament.


I agree. Do you think I should divorce him? I mean, is that what you're getting at? No matter if we're together or apart, I still wouldn't want contact with my sister.


I've asked all these questions and have heard his answers. I believe he might be posting his story here at some point, and if/when he does, I trust that he will be questioned intensely by the MB posters.


I agree that things were being shared. He tells me they didn't reveal their feelings about each other to each other. Maybe I'm a total fool for believing these answers. I don't really know.

I also agree that it's odd that it was only kissing (a minute or so all three times, I'm told ... as in not as much passion but more comfort) and no other physical contact. This is what he swears to. I don't know for sure because I wasn't there. He knows that if I were to ever learn otherwise, I'd be out the door.

What more can I do?

Maybe I should schedule a polygraph.


I am angry at my sister, and I am angry at my husband. At times I'm more angry at him, and at times I'm more angry at her. It's like ping pong. I want to focus on my anger, sadness, disappointment I have toward him and forget her, but I can't. And I want the healing to continue with him, but my outrage toward her gets in the way sometimes.

My husband has not tried in any way to justify any of his actions regarding the affair itself; he points no fingers at her and takes total responsibility for his selfish, thoughtless, heartless, careless, disrespectful actions.

For the past 9 years and even for a week or so after D-day, he did attempt to justify lying to me about the affair. This justification has ended as he now finally seems to understand how very wrong it was for a number reasons to lie to me, the biggest reason being the lack of protection the lying offered our kids and I.

Again, what can I do about it now? It's not how he should have handled it. He was wrong, wrong, wrong. He understands this now.

I'm still in shock, but most of my shock is about him, not her. She is a serial cheater and a seductive flirt who's always had an attraction to him.

He, on the other hand, is the kind of guy who, when he was single in college, left his dorm room after a girl he was studying with got naked and called him over to the bed. That's how he should have responded to my sister. That's who I thought he was. That's who he thought he was. But he didn't respond like that, and that image of him is gone forever. We can't get it back. Now we have to go on from here.

I'm not certain that I ever want to get to the point where I want him to take a polygraph. My honest thought right now is that if I feel the need for him to do that, I probably shouldn't be with him at all.

I don't know.

When a WH is doing all that he needs to recover the marriage there is no reason to punish him. You may feel anger at times, be mad, but these are not reasons to torture the WH.

Is the goal for the both of you to heal, or keep reopening the wound?

Expecting a WH to make changes for the better is not torture.

This is the place I feel he and I are at. I have no desire to torture or punish him. The goal IS for both of us to heal. I wholeheartedly feel we have a solid marriage worth saving.

I got the impression that RMJ thought I should be doing something different than moving forward with healing (i.e., "don't let him off lightly"); perhaps I misunderstood.

I don't feel that he's getting off lightly in all of this now, so I'm just wondering if I'm missing something.

We are talking, reading, crying, mourning, revealing, discovering, introspecting, loving, comforting. Along with that, I've yelled at him and have gotten extremely angry with him a few times.

I feel he has made (prior to d-day) and is making changes for the better. He is adamant that he learned from this affair and made a vow to himself to never put himself in the spot again of having discussions with another woman about personal matters ... of never going to someone else for any type of comfort or escape because he should be coming to me, and it wouldn't solve any problems anyway.

He (wrongly) thought that was that and why further destroy a family, both our family and my family? (fill in other justifications here) He wasn't alone in that wrong thinking because my sister and brother-in-law played right along. His wrong views about the benefits of not confessing to me were supported by others for years.

He now understands how stupid, selfish, hurtful and harmful that cover up was, and I think he's learning more each day about the consequences of his actions during and after the affair.

I am so very sad/hurt/angry/disgusted about both the affair itself AND the 9 year cover up. I have to deal with 1) his betrayal during the affair 2) my sister's betrayal during the affair 3) his cover up for 9 years 4) my sister's cover up for 9 years 5) my BIL's cover up for 9 years 6) all the time and discussions my sister and I shared during and after the affair - what an invasion that has been to me after the initial attack on my family 6) issues relating to my family including my kids' relationship with their cousins 7) my husband's initial belief on d-day and for a few days after that he honestly wishes I never found out, that he never planned to tell me ... before finally understanding why this view was so screwed up. (soooo many reasons, but what if he would've died, and then I found out? can you imagine all the trauma without me being able to hear from him?)

The way I see it, I can focus on all of that -- and I admit there are A LOT of strikes and much more than many people have to deal with -- or I can choose to focus on what he's learned, what I've learned, what are expectations are now and what our future looks like with us actively working on doing a better job of meeting each other's needs and filling our love bank.

AND I can choose to focus on the sweet silver lining of finally being able to divorce myself from my sister's destructive, toxic behavior for good.

Please, please someone tell me if I'm missing something by focusing on healing rather than focusing on the crimes committed against me.

RareMamaJewel

Wonderful post.Thank you so much!

"What does letting him off lightly mean? In your opinion, should I be mean to him or refuse to speak to him or act pissy toward him for a long time? <-- honest question"

Letting him off lightly would be moving on and saying the marriage is reconciled without insisting that he work on his issues that allowed him to cross the line with your sister, pretend all was normal, and deceive you in the short and long term.

I personally don't believe that acting out against him would solve anything,even if you were getting D and never going to see him again. If you're mean, pissy, or don't talk to him that could be more damaging to you and your family. If he truly is remorseful, such behaviors could make him feel even worse. According to MB principles, those behaviors are love busters.

By all means, it's ok to be angry, but use the anger constructively. In fact you can't heal without doing so. Anger is one of the stages of getting through grief. And if you weren't angry, we'd all think you were indifferent to him and the M. (He might think so to.) But he has to own what he did, deal with his issues, learn to see you as person who not only deserves respect, but as someone who has the right to cope with hurts and live her life as she sees fit.

He betrayed you. It isn't his right to mandate your outcome because of his betrayal. That's a very condescending attitude for him to have for so many years. He seems to believe that he knows you better than you know yourself and that he is the ultimate one making the decisions of your destiny. Like you aren't capable of,or person enough, doing that yourself..kwim? It's almost easier to accept he did it to cover his assets (which is very narcissistic)than to accept that it was done to "protect you" (which indicates he sees you as property or as an object in someway...rather than as an individual with her own identity)

As far as D or R,only you can decide that. Since you recently found out more details, it could very well be too early for you to decide.

However, you're going to have to do some major soul searching with regards to the family issue and what you expect from a spouse. We don't expect our spouses to cheat. Unfortunately,it happens. Fortunately, the affair can stop, the wayward spouse can become a F(former)WS,and the M reconciled without the affair remaining in the background. There is closure to the A.

But with family AP's,there isn't closure. It's like it gets tabled. The BS has to compartmentalize because we don't have our spouse with us at family events and we know why. :**( Makes it difficult to permanently heal because it's painful...like a very tender scar.

If not having his support during family funerals/illness or not having him at your side to share in joyful events like weddings, new babies,birthdays, baptisms,reunions, etc is absolutely unacceptable to you,then don't waste another day, get a D. I say this so bluntly because if this is a deal breaker for you,you won't be able to recover your marriage.

[Quote]I agree that things were being shared. He tells me they didn't reveal their feelings about each other to each other. Maybe I'm a total fool for believing these answers. I don't really know.

I also agree that it's odd that it was only kissing (a minute or so all three times, I'm told ... as in not as much passion but more comfort) and no other physical contact. This is what he swears to. I don't know for sure because I wasn't there. He knows that if I were to ever learn otherwise, I'd be out the door.[Quote/]


I don't see how you can permanently move forward if you think that his story seems odd. You're still in a similar position that you had with your one sister's remark (not OWsis). Something isn't sitting right with you.

He has to help you reach an understanding of what happened. You can and should ask more questions. Such as, "Why did you think it was ok to kiss her if neither one of you shared your feelings for each other? She's your SIL, why did you think a romantic kiss was acceptable,esp when you hadn't shared feelings with each other?"

Delta, you got to let him know he's putting himself in a potentially precarious position. He's inadvertently making himself look bad...like he can randomly go and kiss a woman without knowing her intentions/feelings for him.

He's minimizing what happened, and placing himself in a position of further weakness by doing so. There is a logical reason that you find his story odd. it doesn't make sense. Folks don't normally go and kiss others romantically without knowing their intentions and feelings (at least of the intentions). He's a man,she could have put his butt to the wall if he made an unwanted advance toward her. That's her BIL. There's more to the story than 3 romantic kisses with unknown feelings.

Could have been just plain sexual attraction between the two of them and they acted on it. But you need to know what was going on within his mind that gave him permission to share 3 kisses with her.kwim?

And I'm not saying there was something more physical,but they were sharing something and he needs to disclose that to you.

Also,be very careful when you say that you would be out of the marriage if there is more than what he currently swears to. You're asking to get lied to,at your expense, if he thinks it will keep you in the marriage to lie by omission. You'll get gas lighted and truth trickled to death. Go with your gut. If something seems odd,it's because it is.

So true.

I once was doing an interview of a supervisor at a nursing home.
I asked what the procedure was for an employee to report any medication error.

She said:

"If someone makes a medication error, they know they will get fired."

She said this with PRIDE, by the way.

I said to her:

"So, what you've just told me is that you encourage your employees to cover up any medication errors. Don't you think this is more dangerous? You will never know when an error needs immediate reversal."


She was not happy with me.

People need some sort of procedure to report errors. Mistakes. Serious infractions.

I agree. We are nowhere near reconciled but rather in the process of healing and reconciliation. He most definitely needs to work on these issues.


Yes, I do know what you mean. I don't feel this is the way he treats me (as his property or an object) ... in fact that's so far from how he treats me. If anything, I'm too independent rather than interdependent, but that has improved in recent years. So maybe it was more covering his a** ... I don't know. He has said it was due to fear -- about losing me (he thought I'd definitely divorce him), my family being torn apart, etc. (his words, not mine)


It is a deal breaker for me.

So is that it? In your opinion, divorce is our only solution?

Who said we're permanently moving forward and that he's done helping me reach an understanding of what happened? Who said I'm not continuing to ask questions? Did I not say that we're focusing on what he's learned, what I've learned and what our expectations are now?

I feel that you're making a lot of incorrect assumptions.

This is new. We are still in this process. I don't yet have all the answers. Never said I did.

To clarify what I've said to him, I've told him that this is the time for 100% honesty. Tell me everything. Now. If I ever learn something different in the future, I will leave you.

And I would.

I like that you are unambiguous.

No assumptions,just bad wording on my part if I've led you to think that we don't realize both of you are in the early stages of the process.

I've been told by 2 different professionals and I have also read that it takes two to five years to recover from an A. So of course, I understand that you both are at the starting gate. My apologies for not being more sensitive in my wording. It's obvious that you are a strong,intelligent,caring,loving person from your posts.

Processing through it does take time because both of you are working on it. It is also a good sign that he is answering your questions and helping you heal. It's not going to get fixed overnight,I understand that.

Delta,

I know your focus is on dealing with his affair. I know your focus is on deciding if you really want to be married to him. I know your focus is on what this will do to your family interactions. Nothing wrong with this focus, in fact, you are correct to do this.

I would like to talk about the future abit. One, there is no excuse for what he did. Period. However, this revelation is also an OPPORTUNITY for YOU to review your role in this marriage and what you bring to it with regard to meeting your H's needs. It is an OPPORTUNITY for you and your H to really address communications issues such as they exist.

I suspect that your H would have been right had he told you, you would have divorced him, even if it was "only" a kiss. Your statemenst suggest that you have matured a bit now and see marriage a bit differently. Reflect on that. And think about Pep's comment about the asking people to be honest about med's and then firing them if they told of a mistake. That is more profound than you realize.

I also know that you have only been dealing with this for a short period while your H has had 9 years to address and adjust to what he did. That puts you two at two different points of recovery. However, it is also possible that he has had 9 years of guilt to endure for what he did.

This brings me to the very last point I would like you to consider. I have been her a long time, and oddly one of the things that often gets in the way of recovery is guilt on the part of the WS who wants to recover. You need to be aware that while it might make you feel good for him to "suffer" for his profound error in judgement, it is not in your best interest to do this. It is not in your children's best interest to do this. You don't realize it yet, but by telling your children about his failure(which you should have done as you two did), he will NEVER be viewed by them the same again. He will NEVER be their hero, and that will haunt him for the rest of his life.

I am not saying he and the children will not have a good relationship or a loving relationship, but he is the man that hurt their mother and while they needed to know, it does change things.

So while you are thinking punishment, or revenge in your darkest moment, consider that fact. As for your family I think given that this occured 9 years ago and he has been around your family many time since then, that you can safely be around your family with your H. I know this goes against Harley's NC for life, but this situation will only occur with you and/or your children around. And everyone knows of the situation, so there are many eyes watching him. My guess is that he won't feel very comfortable being around your family, but to support you he must be.

Just some thoughts for you to consider.

JL

Unfortunately,I said the very same words to my husband. Two years ago,5 years out from finding out, I learned a new detail. Not really anything major. But something I wished I had known early on that had to do with their flirting.

When I got home, my whole countenance was changed. I was so calmly indifferent. He was very distressed because I was done. He begged me to talk to him. I don't know why, but I did. I didn't tell all I had just learned because I felt that could give him to much info, but I gave the bare minimum.He really sat there and thought about it. After a good hour, he remembered and reiterated what I had learned. But he hadn't remembered for a long time.

I understand that we do forget minor details years later. (In fact, he and I both recently forgot the timing of one incident. We thought it had happened on a certain weekend when it was actually a different time)

So it can be that he has forgotten minor details. Would you want him want to be forthcoming when he does remember minor stuff (like having said something such as "you have pretty eyes",etc)? If yes, you might want to consider how to approach him with that. He might not understand that you would consider letting him tell you something that he might have truly forgotten without it being a reason to leave him. It is 9 years later,so there could be some forgotten minor stuff that he recalls as he goes back in his thoughts .

But with any major details and everything he does remember, you're right on that he needs to be 100% honest now.

Is having contact between OWsis and your husband going to be ok with you? That is the other option. How comfortable are you with that?

When I originally found out, it was 2 years after the fact. Both my husband and sister lied (by minimizing)about what had transpired. The spin at the time from my husband was that it was neither attraction nor emotional. This went on for too long. 5 years after the fact,my husband decided to be honest about the attraction. They had flirted, he made an advance,she had considered it, but declined because she "couldn't do that to her sister". I pay dearly to this day because of what they considered.

(And MB policy is such that if it's been considered by both parties, there is always a chance the attraction could reignite and an affair develop...so NC is necessary. Plus contact can cause feelings of ambivalence in both spouses)

Unfortunately, I didn't use the discussion forum (out of computer ignorance)here at MB when I first found out. I did print out all the questionnaires and read the info on the website. I did what the MB site (not the board) recommended, assumed my H was being honest, and built a better M.

There was continued contact between me, OWsis, H,and my family. My husband got a better wife and M, I got gas- lighted. Needless to say, my sis got peeved at me one day and started yelling about me, my relationship with my husband and about him. My husband then decided to tell me his story. But I can say because it was trickle truth drawn out over along time, I sometimes don't know what I believe. I have a similar perspective to you regarding polygraph...if it is necessary,then is the relationship worth it? The money would be better spent on D.

In the meantime, my husband and I decided that there would be no intentional contact between them. Because it is family, there have been isolated incidents where she has shown up at events we were attending with other family. (Public venues....plus my extended family doesn't respect the NC perspective. My H was around for so many years post dday, "why does it matter now?" is their way of thinking. )

It does create some hard feelings for me. My mind will "flash" thoughts like, "is he attracted to her right now?" or "How could he choose her over me?" It also brings up feelings of inadequacy that I had from growing up in my family. (very dysfunctional family at that)

Oh heck, one holiday I was at my parents' place, she ended up being there (my H wasn't,btw). I was sitting at the table and BAMM into my head, out of the blue: "I wonder if they *expletived* here on this table?" While eating my Christmas dinner of all things! It's just all very difficult to deal with at times. I joke "when it's family, it's the gift that keeps on giving" (being facetious)

I can't say for you that D is the solution. You might prefer to have your husband's support and allow contact. This might work for you now. You might feel differently in the future about having contact.

I know for me, when I didn't know the story of the A (and it wasn't even a full blown EA/PA) I was left wondering. Now I know that they were very attracted to each other...enough to flirt and share a romantic hug. If she had said yes, it would have been a full blown PA.

To have them both in each other's presence reminds me that she is someone he was willing to throw me, our marriage, and our family away for. Doesn't matter that he never meant to hurt me, that he thought I would never find out, etc. This is my reality, especially if they are together (even with family around in a public setting with several thousand people gathered for an event)

I wish there were simple answers to make our pain go away and make everything better. But there aren't. When it comes down to it, I have to do what works for me and my family. You'll have to do the same for you and yours. Only you can decide what you need for *you*. You know your mind and heart.

I'm sad that you are here, no one should be. But I'm glad I've been able to share my painful experience with you. It's such a rare, frightening, traumatic situation to deal with. Because it's not a typical affair, it can be even more isolating to cope with. I just want to let you know that you are not alone in your sufferings. I understand this lonely path in your journey.

Peace,

Jewel

DD


At the risk of taking the Good Doctor out of context, the above quote is in some ways drawing a line in the sand. And while you read Dr. Harley's wisdom and I really suggest you do as much of that as you possibly can, you also read about issues and thoughts and problems that are associated with somebody else, not you.

A couple of sessions with the Coaching Center is a very, very cheap price for perspective.
_______________

At some point, you must move on with a plan.

A plan that is based on Dr. Harley's concepts can only come from reading Dr. Harley's, uh, plans. He gives them away for free here on this site. He has spelled them out in books and seminars and a home study course. Yes, and he has a coaching center that can focus on a custom plan just for you.

Because I attempt to help people here, I read at least one of Dr. Harley's plans, articles or concepts each and every day. It only takes ten or fifteen minutes, sometimes less. Either that, or I read a chapter or two in one of this books. I used to have all of them. But I still have three of them.

And each time I read, I come away with something new. And each person here has a somewhat different take on what he says because we are all individuals with different perspectives in life. And he is seldom looking over our shoulder setting us straight, making sure we get it exactly. I never will be able to completely understand Dr. Harley.

He is a professional who has spent decades developing his work. It is like taking a test in college. I may have made an 85, but that doesn't mean I know all but 15%. I might not have been able to answer who knows how many other questions that could have been asked.

My take on Dr. Harley, and this is just my take, what I get out of reading, is that at some point, you really do have to focus on moving ahead instead of reviewing again and again and again the details of the affair. And Dr. Harley has a serious plan for moving ahead, which, if you follow it, can lead to a really, really good place to be.

And as you move ahead, don't beat yourself up for not understanding something that you didn't understand. We don't have it in our head until we, uh, have it in our head. You learn and adapt and there you go.

One thing is certain. The seeds of adultery are in ALL of us. You shouldn't trust your husband and he shouldn't trust you. THAT concept is straight forward and has no wiggle room.

Just some ideas that might help you.

Larry

Just to add something:

Dr. Harley isn't about Surviving an Affair. That is just one part of his concepts and not even the most important part. His plans and concepts are for building a great marriage. He explains how and why and he makes sense to me. But, uh, you have to read them to get the knowledge.

Larry

Thanks everyone for your caring posts.

My husband is calling MB in the morning to set up MC for us, and I also asked him to begin IC.

He came home today in tears to tell me it was in fact a full blown affair. They had sex twice. So yes, he's been lying to me for the past six weeks.

RMJ, I know you were simply wanting me to feel secure that I've gotten all the information, and now I do.

This changes everything for me. I had no emotional reaction, I have not cried, not been angry. Just resolute. Maybe I'm in shock, maybe I don't care. I don't know.

Did I mention that my dad died two days before d-day? No, I left that part out. (events surrounding that actually caused me to re-question husband 8 yrs later) My husband's latest excuse for not telling me full truth on d-day was that it wasn't the right time because of all of that.

What the FFFFFFFFFFFFF ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My world really is a blur right now.

BTW, I called my BIL immediately to ask if he knew they had sex.

He did not.

Now he knows. And I told him that he should know that she's still lying to him about other current things. But that's not my concern, not my concern, not my concern.

Of course they had sex.
Maybe more than twice.

I am so sorry.
It hurts like hell.
It makes one want to vomit.

*sigh*

I'm sure this isn't the end of the drama. Your sister may try something else.
Here is my advice for today.
Next opportunity, call your physician, schedule an appointment for STD testing, (H needs to do this too) and you may want to inquire if you need help for anxiety or depression.

Delta, I am so sorry. I am sorry this happened, not sorry you got the truth. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Delta}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Delta

Please do what Pep has suggested, call your doctor. You didn't need this. And now you have to deal with it. I am so very sorry.

Larry

Oh ((((((Delta)))))I am so sorry.

I am with Pep that this probably isn't the end of the drama.
At least you feel like things make sense.

I am so sorry.

I accidentally just pasted the following into my husband's thread instead of mine. I will not post in his thread ... just a mistake.

----

Oh, how I love this place. I read through my husband's thread and am thankful for both the advice and the lashing he's receiving. It is very much deserved.

H set up an appt. with the Harleys for Monday morning.

I am taking good care of me. Friends are helping. I've never taken antidepressant/anxiety meds and would prefer not to start, but I'm not too proud to take them at some point if necessary. My pain is real and I don't feel I need to dull it right now.

I asked H to leave last night, and he did. We will be living apart for at least a while.

I think he FINALLY gets it. He was on his knees yesterday revealing all, and he most definitely needed to get to that rock bottom place.

I think there was something about asking him to put all the details of his story in writing that spurred him to tell the whole truth. (I think it's the whole truth ... of course I can't be certain, can I?) I wish I would've asked him to put it in writing 9 yrs ago. I think that's a good lesson for others.

Too late for us? idunno. Yet to be determined.

You will hear the MB chorus tell you that living apart is a bad thing for your M.
And it is .... if you are in recovery.
I don't think you are in recovery. (yet)


It's fine to live with your wayward after D day .... UNLESS you want to slap his stupid face or throw blunt objects.

I had to be separated from my H after I learned the truth.
It was for his protection !
And for the protection of my household items.

Give yourself some breathing room.
Also, recognize that living together is required if/when you decide you want to try to recover this marriage.

Right now, that decision is still being made .... and it's best made without blunt objects flying.

Oh my goodness, Pep! Your spoonfeeding is EXACTLY how we have done MB at our house. I always wondered if we might have R more, better, faster if DH was on board but so far so good.

End of TJ

God's Blessings,

Say

Now is a great time to focus on yourself and let out all your emotions. My WW will take a stick or a bat and smack the heck out of her pillow every once in a while because of stress from marriage, kids, and work. I've never done it, it makes me feel silly, but try it out. Pound out your pain if your blood starts to boil.

You can also make some life changing plans, read up on self help books, from marriage to diets and exercise.

Find what may have triggered your husband and remove them from your lives. Things like ENs not being met, and your sister (sorry, but contact will have to end) have to go. Find what your husband can do to help you build trust in him again, and make a list of those things, no matter how extensive it is. Share it with him and dicuss those things that he has a tough time agreeing to.

Take care of yourself, and try to be positive that things in the future will be better, no matter what the outcome is.

I like this idea and your other suggestions, too. I think I'll line up a couple spa treatments since they just so happen to be running a special.

I went out with a girlfriend tonight for drinks and dinner. Lots of needed laughs.

I can't really explain this sense of peace and calm I've had since yesterday's revelation. I'm pretty sure I was nervous in the back of my mind that my husband was holding back his emotions because he was falling in love back then. But as soon as I learned he was instead holding back his sexual rendezvous (as grotesque as they are), I knew that I knew in the core of my soul that it wasn't about love at all. It was a dirty, rotten primal urge thing. He never told me he needed space. He never told me ILYBINILWY.

Strange how horrid things hit you in unexpected ways.

Anyway, to throw a little humor into our Jerry Springer drama, I told my friend tonight that Shawn King (Larry King's wife) should give me a call to chat since, as you may have heard in the news, we apparently share a similar story. I ended up posting this comment on my facebook page. "Yo, Shawn, babe ... call me!"

H is already speaking MB lingo. Funny. He's reading the material for sure.

I've never heard him anywhere close to this broken before. This site and the information is a God send to him. Thank you all for the support!

He's looking so forward to speaking with Dr. Harley Monday morning.

OW/S tried calling H's cell a few times after I told BIL that sex occurred. H didn't answer the calls but informed me when they happened. I called my BIL to inform him, and while he said he assures me she won't be contacting him again, he gave me all sorts of psycho babble in her defense, so I really don't need to speak to him anymore, either.

H is preparing NC letter to OW/SIL and apology letter to BIL for my review.

Delta:


Good analysis and good show. He sounds as if he has been gas lighting himself, or at least allowing it.

It sounds as if your husband reached bottom and is climbing to find his grownup state. That may turn out to be a very good thing.

Larry

Larry, BIL is so very gas lighted. It's a mystery. Perhaps because of his own adultery, former drug and alcohol addictions, career failures and other crapola. He's so quick to forgive and sweep it all under the rug. Then the same sick behaviors happen over and over and over.

He tried to tell me today that yes, there's been a little sibling rivalry from my POS S directed at me over the last 5 or 6 years.

A little?

Vomit.

She screwed my husband. 9 yrs ago. She wanted to take him and my life away from me. Does that not count? I feel abused a little each time I've ever spoken to him about my S because he defends her so blindly based on the fact that she's such a lost soul.

She told him that the core of why she had this A and others is because of abandonment issues. Give me a freaking break. Get over yourself already and do the right thing.

He'll no longer have a platform with me.

Sorry ... just had to vent. I know he/they are no longer important to my life, and they never need to be again. Whew!

In my H's thread, there's discussion about whether to ask for forgiveness. A day after I learned about the A, my BIL implied in an email that I should forgive because he has forgiven fully.

I think it's totally and absolutely selfish, disrespectful and shameful to ask for forgiveness or to encourage another person to forgive. Forgiveness is up to each person individually. All each of us can do is apologize for our mistakes and crimes, learn from them and repent. The rest is not up to us.

I recently merged a few quotes on forgiveness to summarize my view:

"We forgive freely or we do not really forgive at all. You can forgive someone almost anything. But you cannot tolerate everything. We don't have to tolerate what people do just because we forgive them for doing it. Forgiving heals us personally. To tolerate everything only hurts us all in the long run. Forgiving doesn't mean being passive and staying in a job or a relationship that clearly doesn't work for you. It is important that you are clear about your boundaries. If you are willing to allow unacceptable behavior again and again in the name of 'forgiveness,' you are more than likely using 'forgiveness' as an excuse not to take responsibility for taking care of yourself or as a way to avoid making changes."

Absolutely, forgiveness is done freely and is truly a gift to self. In forgiving, I am set free. In forgiving, I understand that I didn't do the action that caused the pain. Forgiveness places the responsibility to repair the damage on the offending party. It would be an injustice to both to myself and the individual who hurt me if I didn't hold that person responsible for his/her actions.

To "forgive" and forget enables continued destructive behavior by the offending party towards me and others. It does convey tolerance to the offender and gives the impression that we condone people hurting us.

I don't have to tolerate destructive behavior by others. I have the right to expect restitution and change. If the offending party refuses to give that, it is wise to remove myself from further harm by not allowing the offending party to remain in my life .

Also, I have come to realize that with certain situations in life, the damage can be so intense that even though I forgive and the offending party makes restitution and changes, it is still in my best interest to move forward without that individual in my life. So this is another possible scenario with forgiveness.


As you go through MB (if you choose to do so), you'll learn the weaknesses in your M currently and at the time of his A. You'll learn how to build a new, better M.

But always remember this, you were not responsible for his A. He chose that destructive path for himself. I found that to be helpful in my forgiveness of my spouse for his behavior. It lifted the burden off of me and rightfully placed it onto him.

From C S Lewis:As long as we're looking at quotes about the subject of forgiveness...

DDD,

Maybe you just aren't in the place to forgive yet.

I would just say to you that a time may come that YOU will want to forgive him.

Leave yourself room to make that decision. It just may creep up on you.



SB

This is spot on. I don't see how you can be anywhere near forgiveness yet, DDD. You have to know what really happened and it's full impact on you. Then there's working through the stages of grief through the pain and loss. Sometimes as we work through those stages, we have a moment that comes to us and we forgive. Sometimes we go through the stages of grief, reach acceptance and still don't experience a moment of desire to forgive.

Only you can know if and when that time comes. In that moment, the choice to forgive or not will be yours. People shouldn't be telling you to forgive at this early stage. That would be so wrong.

RMJ is right about forgiving.


I had a childhood experience that took me through many stages of grief.

That anger phase was the longest, I think. It overlapped the denial phase.

Anyway.


My life came full circle when I realized that, for me, forgiveness was the key to my freedom.



This - by no means - meant that I forgot one single thing. It also does not mean that the people involved are a part of my life.


And, no, forgiveness isn's something that you need to focus on right now. Your heart is not there.


Your life is shaken, and you need to understand what has happened.


You cannot forgive what you do not understand, what you don't even have the truth of yet.



That wouldn't make sense.


Ignore those who plead for forgiveness at this point.


And if your husband wants forgiveness, there is actually a nice book on it - Five Steps to Forgiveness.

Maybe he needs to do some reading to understand what that might take. And, that you are not obligated to even consider it.


SB

H is definitely not asking for me to forgive.

I think it's an excellent sign that your H is making his apologies and has written a NC letter.

It's also positive that he hasn't asked for forgiveness yet. That should come in time. For him to ask forgiveness before you both know the truth of the A (not just the physical details, but the meaning of it too) would make him seem insincere.

I hope once he does work through his end of the process he asks for forgiveness.

My husband did. He said something along the lines of, "I hadn't understood the full impact of my choices on you. I am sorry I hurt you the way I did. I hope that one day, in your heart, you will be able to forgive me. In the meantime, I want you to know that I will do all in my power to help you move forward. Even if it means you choose not to have me in your life, I will still help you if or when you need it."

He backed it up with the actions to show he was sincere. I think it made it easier to forgive when he did that.

I don't recall my H ever asking for forgiveness. I think he knew he didn't deserve it. He apologized, he expressed remorse, he showed repentance.

I don't recall a specific request for me to forgive him. He did ask if we could stay together, if I would allow him the chance to try to make things right. But that specific request, to forgive him, I don't think he said those words. Maybe he did.

I have forgiven him. To forget the events? That is a whole 'nuther thing.

Here are some ramblings about what I've garnered over the last few days about why H entered A. This is my take on it; he can read this, and we'll discuss any skewed views I may have:

-Lust, attraction, temptation, excitement, thrill of forbidden fruit and playing with fire, a natural high. Once this fizzled, the A slowly fizzled, and he called it off. This is the part that was missing for me before he told me A involved sex. Once he told me, the story clicked better. It all made more sense. A-ha.

-Escape from and avoidance of the pain and depression he was facing from father's death and issues with his daughter. Although in reality, he still faced the same pain during and after A.

-Ego boost, feeling pursued, feeling affirmation, feeling cared about. (<< totally disingenuous fraud, by the way!)

-OPPORTUNITY - I was gone from home a few times.


Of course I'm not to blame for his A, but here are some truths during that time that I've realized about myself:

- I was away from home for a few different events including one 4-day period and two one-week periods.

- For about a month prior to start of A, I was engrossed with helping my best friend cope with her H leaving her. My husband needed me, and I was not entirely there for him because I was wrapped up with her.

- I now remember three different incidents that directly correlate with the start of his A and the two times he had sex with OW when I got too close to other men. All three incidents involved drinking and dancing and me being tempted to cheat (kiss) but declining.

WOW. I had totally forgotten (bottled?) those encounters until we pulled out our credit card records, his mileage records and other documents and began to piece together the timeline from that summer.

We no longer have cell phone records, but knowing all I know now, that phone info is not as important to me anymore. It no longer bothers me like it did that I don't know the frequency, length, or depth of their talks. It was what it was. He's explained the gist of their discussions, and it totally jives with me. I have the "luxury" of knowing WH and OW and have a good idea about how their conversations went.

Over the past couple days we've been learning a lot about what each other was feeling and experiencing during that time.

Neither of us recall arguing or being upset with one another. No big arguments or upsets. But for various reasons, we were both enjoying attention from other people. And we never told each other any of it.

The difference, of course, is that he cheated and crossed A LOT of boundaries. I did not.

Ya know what ???
Same here.
I never thought about it before.
THANK YOU

Here's something I read that spoke to me about the "why" behind his A:

An emotionally retarded man may go for a time without feeling pleasure, pain, or anything else, until a strange woman jerks him back into awareness of something intense enough for him to feel it�perhaps sexual fireworks, or the boyish heroics of rescuing her, or perhaps just fascination with her constantly changing moods and never-ending emotional crises.

What he needs is not a crazier woman to sacrifice his life for, but treatment for his depression. However, since the best home remedies for depression are sex, exercise, joy, and triumph, the dangerous damsel may be providing one or more of them in a big enough dose to make him feel a lot better. He may feel pretty good until he gets the bill, and sees how much of his life and the lives of his loved ones this treatment is costing.

A man, especially a philandering man, may feel comfortable having sex with a woman if it is clear that he is not in love with her. Even when a man understands that a rule has been broken and he expects consequences of some sort, he routinely underestimates the extent and range and duration of the reactions to his betrayal.

Men may agree that the sex is wrong, but may believe that the lying is a noble effort to protect the family. A man may reason that outside sex is wrong because there is a rule against it, without understanding that his lying establishes an adversarial relationship with his mate and is the greater offense. Men are often surprised at the intensity of their betrayed mate's anger, and then even more surprised when she is willing to take him back. Men rarely appreciate the devastating long-range impact of their infidelities, or even their divorces, on their children.

Here are some ramblings about what I've garnered over the last few days about why H entered A. This is my take on it; he can read this, and we'll discuss any skewed views I may have:

-Lust, attraction, temptation, excitement, thrill of forbidden fruit and playing with fire, a natural high. Very familiar - my husband said very similar things about his affair. Once this fizzled, the A slowly fizzled, and he called it off. This is the part that was missing for me before he told me A involved sex. Once he told me, the story clicked better. It all made more sense. A-ha.

-Escape from and avoidance of the pain and depression he was facing from father's death and issues with his daughter. Although in reality, he still faced the same pain during and after A. This has a ring of truth to it. Your point of fact that he would face it, with or without the affair, is valid. The affair has a flavor of escapism to it.

-Ego boost, feeling pursued, feeling affirmation, feeling cared about. (<< totally disingenuous fraud, by the way!) Ego-centric and selfish, valid points. Your sister's part in it was very ego-centric as well, with her motivations MUCH different.

-OPPORTUNITY - I was gone from home a few times. Opportunity always plays a part in sin.


Of course I'm not to blame for his A, but here are some truths during that time that I've realized about myself:

- I was away from home for a few different events including one 4-day period and two one-week periods. The opportunity part.

- For about a month prior to start of A, I was engrossed with helping my best friend cope with her H leaving her. My husband needed me, and I was not entirely there for him because I was wrapped up with her. This did open up the opportunity some, and reduced some of the time with your H. It did also come at a critical time, when your H did need you, so there is that factor involved. Good observation.

- I now remember three different incidents that directly correlate with the start of his A and the two times he had sex with OW when I got too close to other men. All three incidents involved drinking and dancing and me being tempted to cheat (kiss) but declining. What I wonder about is whether or not you sensed infidelity happening during this time between your husband and sister. It is possible that your "radar" had already picked up on the problem in your marriage, and your acting out in this way was a reaction to it. Something to consider. Another good observation on your part.

WOW. I had totally forgotten (bottled?) those encounters until we pulled out our credit card records, his mileage records and other documents and began to piece together the timeline from that summer. This is an excellent way to find anchor events. I highly recommend this.

We've been learning a lot about what each other was feeling and experiencing during that time.

Neither of us recall arguing or being upset with one another. No big arguments or upsets. But for various reasons, we were both enjoying attention from other people. And we never told each other any of it.

The difference, of course, is that he cheated and crossed A LOT of boundaries. I did not.

Actually, my first incident of inappropriate behavior with another man occurred a couple weeks before H's first kiss with OW, which kicked off their A. Perhaps his radar went off instead.

I had taken my best friend away to the big city for the weekend to help her escape her turmoil. We had a blast by day and night ... some very late nights, but I didn't share all of the details with my H.

DA*N IT!

I just remembered that when I told my OWsister about my weekend in the city, I told her that I danced with a guy and was super tempted to kiss him.

Another detail she no doubt used to cast her web.

She is such a freaking witch. One of our other sisters called her a black widow yesterday. ha! Very fitting.

Husband still kissed her that night, though.

There's no escaping that fact.

You see what I mean about anchor moments?


Once you are able to have one moment in time anchored there - an event that is meaningful, the brain is often able to "fill in" other events around that moment.


It is magical.


I love when I do this IRL.


I once had a client who did not know his own name, where he lived, etc. He thought he lived in a certain town and that he was married. We had tried - without luck - to contact a wife in that town, to locate anyone with the name he had given us.

So I had worked with him over many days, many sessions. The one thing I always did was orient to the date. "What is the date?" I would ask, and we worked YET AGAIN with the calendar. This one day, I asked again (the second session of the day). I pulled out the calendar, he looked, and realized it was the last day of the month. "I HAVE TO CALL MY BANKER! MY RENT IS DUE!" he yelled. I grabbed the phone and gave it to him, and he dialed the bank - from memory, and asked for his banker by name.

From there, we were able to figure out who he was, that he hadn't been married for quite a longe time (18 years), where he lived (NOT where he thought), and we were able to contact his next of kin.

We worked upward from his accident, and backward from his accident. He went home a few weeks later - remembering lots of things.


But it took an anchor point for him - his rent date.


Odd, but true.


SB

Very interesting story, SB. The calendar has been helping us remember a lot.

I'm devastated by the decisions my husband made in 2001 that worked to destroy me and our family. I've been with him for 21 years, and I still can't understand how he could have conducted himself the way he did. It's so not him ... yet it is him.

How do I reconcile that? Temporary insanity? In the end, is that how all betrayed spouses reconcile it?

The truth is, I'm even more devastated and feel more betrayed by my sister. Right or wrong, I can't help it. She played us against each other and disguised it as genuine caring. She manipulated both of us and has been manipulating me in different ways ever since. It's not temporary insanity for her; it's plain old long term insanity.

With or without my husband by my side, her being in my life -- even from a distance, where she will remain -- will be the hardest part of healing because others don't see her quite like I do.

This description fits her to a tee:

�There are women who by nature are romantics but don't quite want to escape their own life. Instead they'd rather have some guy wreck his life for them. We call them spider women. While she is sucking the blood from other people's marriages, she feels some relief from the pain of having her own marriage betrayed. She simply requires that a man love her enough to sacrifice his life for her. She may be particularly attracted to happy marriages, clearly envious of the woman whose husband is faithful and loving to her. Sometimes it isn't clear whether she wants to replace the happy wife or just make her miserable. The spider women who are least squeamish and most likely to wreak havoc on other people's marriages are victims of some sort of abuse, so angry that they don't feel bound by the usual rules or obligations, so desperate that they cling to any source of security, and so miserable that they don't bother to think a bit of the end of it.�

So sad to know this applies to your own sister.

Thanks for this post from the other day, JL. I re-read it this morning, and it helps.


We need to discuss this with Dr. Harley because this is what feels right and makes sense to me also. If we end up together, I wouldn't want to go to a family wedding without him. No way.

DDD,

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. You're getting some Sunday school answers like, "lust" and "temptation". ok...that maybe quite valid.... Oh, and the depression answer too.

However, your above quote mentions philandering. Philanderers are known for multiple A's.

I'm not saying that your H has had multiple A's.

However, what I'm trying to get at is that you will definitely come to a point in which your mind says, "Wait a minute. My H is telling me there was no other emotional connection than the lust and attraction. He was willing to throw me, his children and our M away to have sex with my sister? My sister? Huh? I can't believe he hasn't been attracted to any other woman while M to me. And it sure as heck would be easier and less risky for him to hook up with a woman outside of my family. Why hasn't H had more affairs?"

The mind is a strange thing.

You do need to ask him what it was about his attraction to your sister that allowed him to give himself permission to cheat with her. Also ask him why he hasn't had other affairs. The consensus in the psych field is that a H who will cheat on his W with her sis,will cheat with anyone that he feels the urge toward. Also, most folks see it that way too. If a SO (significant other) will have sexual relations with his own children's relative (outside of their mom), then he's a dawg. (not saying that's how I feel, but the consensus of most others)


I'm just sharing this with you since you will come across those attitudes as you tell what happened to family and close friends. You might find that your sisters' husbands will be uncomfortable with your husband around their daughters and wives. Friends may also feel uncomfortable around your husband since it isn't the typical AP. A family member as an affair partner crosses a societal line. It gives folks the heebie jeebies, if you kwim?

Your situation is one that you have to be cautious with whom you tell.

Will you cite literature about this? Thanks.

Ohhh, DDD, talking to your sister about OWsis is bad, bad, bad. It's called triangulation. Until you speak with Dr Harley,try not to discuss much with your family. Let Dr Harley or his staff coach you with the most positive way of discussing it with your family.

There are several layers to your dynamic. I found that ultimately a sister will not give up contact or even minimize contact, with the OWsis. They are "blood" and "blood is thicker than water". They may be guarded with OWsis, but I doubt much will change. Your husband however, will be placed on the outside. Even if they have him around, the dynamic will be different now that you and they know the truth.

Also, please don't entertain the idea that your being "super tempted" to kiss a guy played into your husbands choice. While OWsis might have mentioned it to H (see the triangulation there), his choice was his own.

A wife's temptation does not give a green light for a husband to cheat, much less to cheat with his wife's sister. Please don't think that way. Of course she talked to your husband. Heck, OW flirt, play victim, and sometimes even prance around half-dressed in front of WH. But regardless of what he was, or wasn't getting at home, his choice was still his choice. (And I have a feeling that your WH will tell you the same thing)

I empathize with your feelings about your OWsis, though. But the fact remains, if your H had been turning his interest toward you and your M, she could have cast out a million webs. He wouldn't have been around to get ensnared.

Oh, hellllls no. I don't think that in any way, shape or form.

He and he alone was the scoundrel who betrayed his wife.

But isn't it recommended that we examine the conditions in our marriage at the time of the A?

While sorting out my feelings and opinions, however, I also need to sort out my feelings and opinions about my sister. What my relationship was with her is a separate matter. Perhaps this thread is not the right place to work those issues out.

I'll stick to my husband.

To summarize:

-He gave me Sunday School answers of lust and temptation
-He threw in the depression line
-Even though he's telling me these are his views, there must have been deeper emotions he's not revealing
-He's a dawg who will cheat and has likely already cheated with anyone he feels the urge toward, according to the psych field
-Sisters' husbands and friends will probably be uncomfortable around him

Thanks for the insight. I'll share this with him later to see what he thinks.

Interestingly, H spoke with Dr. Harley this morning who said he's successfully helped many couples recover from this situation (A between H and SIL). So, Dr. Harley seemed quite a bit more hopeful.

I have had two counselors tell me this directly. The one counselor I still have contact with. I can ask her the resources on it and get back with you later in the week. Both of the counselors I mentioned are in the cognitive/behavioral field of psych and they seemed to project to me that was the consensus, at least in their field.

(In Freudian psych, there is a school that believes in an affair, the WS is acting out or making a stand against the parent he or she had most internal conflict with (in the form of the BS) and is siding with the more favored parent (in the form of the AP). (Btw, the psych field is beginning to accept that freud most likely did have an affair with his SIL...talk about issues!)

As far as society goes, that's the feedback people give through the media and what I also had received from those in my inner circles that knew of my situation.

There were few people that I told. They basically reiterated the perspective of a WH/OWsis relationship to me that I wrote to you. Unfortunately, they also gradually backed out my life. One friend that I told, her older children were Godparents to one of my kids. Needless to say, that family didn't stay in our lives. My child "lost" his Godparents. I don't blame the mom either. Her DD was a beautiful older teen and I don't think she felt comfortable having her family around my H.

A few years post Dday, once my own DD became an older teen, she reiterated the same perspective. Asked me why I don't think her dad hasn't been with others, because if he could consider my sis....yada, yada. (Heck, my own counselors asked me the same thing, come to think of it!)

By all means, I'm not saying these professionals are right. Nor are others right. However, that same perspective had come to my mind before I ever told anyone else or met with the first counselor.

It seemed logical to question why there hadn't been other affairs if it was only temptation, attraction, lust etc from his perspective ...my mind needed to understand it in order to fully process it. It's not cut and dry, black or white. But the "logical" part of our brains tries to make it that way. We end up asking all kinds of questions in our minds because of it. I'm just sharing this because it will most likely come up with you,too.

Ask Dr Harley his take it on. I wonder what his camp thinks.

I'd like to read more about this. So, in my H's case, would it (possibly) be that he had more conflict with his mom? And the A with AP somehow helps him take sides with his dad?

Yep,we have to examine the M conditions. Good to see that you are on target with your perspective of his decision. Unfortunately, once in a while a few people will be misunderstood about the MB concepts and believe it was the conditions of the M that caused the cheating,thus my remark. Nope, MB philosophy places the responsibility of cheating right on the WS where it belongs.

Right on about sorting out your feelings toward your OWsis.

You can rest assured,that at some point, you will even dig into the dynamics of your family also. I know I did. I came to realize that many women in my family condone the role of an OW, justify cheating with a WS/MM, blame a BW for the M problems and for not taking better care of her H. An OW is the victim. A WS/MM is the victim. A BW is the freaking witch. In my family, my OWsis still is the "victim" in every bad decision she's made in her life. My family just luuuuvvvs pity parties!

Sound bitter????? Nahhhhh! Instead, I'm overjoyed that I finally was able to see my family dynamic the way it is. Such freedom...from the chaos and dysfunction in my case. I don't have to be involved in their nasty intrigues. I speak out when they violate what they say their values are. The change has been a sloooowww process with some of the females in my family.


My H, he was willing to do the work on himself and change. I'll stick with my H too.

I was looking on the web and it's there at some of the psych sites. I wondered too,in my case too. But it would be that my H saw me as his dad, (which scares the hades out of me...because his mom was a victim of domestic violence at his dad's hands...) My H did say he "pitied" my sis. Maybe my h did side with his mom in his consideration of AP.

I don't know....I pondered it too, until the Freud/Sil info. Then I wondered which parent it was that Freud had so much conflict with...

Had to run and pick-up DD. Since Dr Harley is in your court, he will get to the issues quick. Your H is willing to work at it. You're willing to support your H through it. That's a great combo. I was going to say that since you're working with the best...run with it. With Dr H's guidance, you'll likely be able to move through the process of figuring things out quicker. (whereas I had to figure things out on my own for a good while)

Please don't think I'm saying that your H's reasons aren't his true reasons, or that there were more emotions to it. Or that he's a dawg. To me, that would be disrespectful on my part.

As far as others being uncomfortable, that could very well happen. Not saying it will, rather it's a possibility. Sorry.

Maybe you could ask Dr H's opinion on what you've summarized. I have a feeling he has a different take on some of it.

I totally understand, RMJ. I summarized your points so that my H could look at them in B&W. They are valid points to consider.

Thanks for your input. Seriously!

Had my first counseling session with Steve Harley today. Very insightful, helpful discussion.

I asked him, "Is there something fundamentally wrong with H that he was capable of having A with my sister? Does the fact that he could cross this societal boundary mean there's something psychologically wrong with him ... wrong at his core?"

He said, "uh, yeeeah ... that he has a pulse."

As for whether he will cheat with anyone he feels the urge toward since he could be such a dawg to cheat with his W's sister, he said nobody's above reproach. Anyone can fail with anyone else. Anyone can meet a person's needs if they're allowed to meet the needs. Unless you have a plan to avoid failure, you will fail provided the "right" circumstances and temptations exist.

Seems logical to me.

His recovery plan is not unique for this case. He's counseled many people who've had affairs with in-laws. H and S were not blood relatives and were friends for years before H and I met.

So, heebie jeebies or not (and I know that, yes, it's extra, extra gross and wrong ... WTF???), it is what it is and we move forward from here.

Last night H gave me his "why" letter explaining his state of mind before, during and after A -- his motivations, emotions, what he felt and what he did not feel.

What seems logical, also seems traumatizing. yuck!

There's no "seems" there. It's most definitely trauma ... by far the worst trauma I've ever experienced.

I'm so sorry, DDD. It truly is traumatizing.

So, Dr Harley is coaching you and WH through following the guidelines of his proven recovery plan? I figured he would follow his plan. That's why I wrote about the NC/family issue in my earlier posts to you. I don't think Dr Harley will renege on that MB NC principle. He's going to recommend that there is NC indefinitely between your WH and OWsister.

You've written just how important it is for you to have your spouse at your side for serious family events. My heart aches for you.

Praying that God gives you peace through this trying time.

RMJ

I forgot to mention this point, but we did discuss the NC rule as it applies to the special circumstances of affairs within families.

He said that as long as my husband and I are fine with it, he saw no problem with having my husband by my side at these major family events. For example, my husband and sister avoided each other completely at my dad's funeral four days after D-day ... that type of thing. In time, I don't think I'll have a problem with this. He recommended that we decide on a "what if" plan prior to each event.

He described the above scenario as forgiveness and distance or option 1.

Alternatively, there's option 2 whereby there's forgiveness and reconciliation. So, for example, two sisters would work through the issues and go back to spending time with each other. Surprisingly, he said some are able to reach that point. He doesn't recommend this because he feels it's presenting the marriage with an unnecessary risk, and you're really choosing to put the family relationship above the marriage.

No thanks. I'll stick to option 1.

Her annoying laugh will keep me at a distance for good <<< an example of the sand in the grease he said will always be present.

Kind of like asking the daughter who's been sexually abused by her father to reconcile with him. Your sister's betrayal is just as devastating and has forever tainted any possible relationship you might have.

Interesting. While I haven't counseled with Dr Harley, I've read the articles on the MB site. Like Melody Lane and Larry, I was under the impression that permanent NC was a stipulation. If a family member AP is just like any other AP, why are there special circumstances that allows contact? Couldn't that "addiction" that was present in the A come back if the two AP's are in close proximity. Could you ask Dr Harley if he would write an article on special circumstances for family affairs? Maybe those of us are reading more into his writings than there is.

(Like when he mentions the WS "seeing" the AP...that it could
reignite the flames from the prior A) Maybe he doesn't mean literally "seeing" the AP as in having the AP in sight vs "'seeing" as in talking or other interactions. kwim?)


Earlier in our R, I did option 1. I have always felt uncomfortable though. So now there is more NC than previously.

Last fall she ended up coming to a public event that we were at with other family members. We had left the event for a short time and went to a small restaurant to eat. After eating, she went outside with all the nieces and nephews. Me and a few other family members were waiting in line to use the ladies room. My idiot husband went just outside the door to stand in the parking lot and help with the kids. (My sister was being a real witch, yelling and screaming at the kids and customers were gawking and getting agitated. My older children and H told me so. )

However, I was so peeved. It was probably one of the most triggery moments since dday. I held my tongue, but let him have it later. I told him I didn't care how she was behaving. Let her yell at the kids. He wasn't supposed to be out there with her. And it wasn't like he was talking to her or interacting with her. But it just took me back to the times when he left me to care for the kids and multi-task my work so he could be near her. having those emotions in that moment really sucked.

Reach out and strangle me DDD, but I have to give your OWsis a pinch of credit for ignoring your h at your dad's funeral.

My sis is a real beyotch! She'll go and put on her bathing suit and wash her car 15 feet from where my husband is grilling the family meal when we go over to my folks' place. It wasn't so bad when she lived across town from them. I could go see my parents, with my H and kids, and have peace. Then she moved in with them for a couple of years. When she got her own place, it was in very close proximity to them...only a short walk from her place to theirs. That was enough for me. I said no more intentional contact.

My H and I recently (again) spoke about my dad's future funeral. (my dad is very ill.) I don't know if I want my H there or not. I guess I'll figure it out when the time comes.

I'm surely not glad you're here at MB, DDD. But I'm glad to be able to share some of my weird experience with you. I hope you have a productive and peaceful weekend.

RMJ

RMJ, please forgive my butting in (and DDD for the threadjack), but I think you are mistaken about who DDD is coaching with.

The founder of MB and the owner of this site, and the expert who wrote all the articles and Q&As, is Dr Willard F Harley.

However, the coaching at the MB coaching centre is done by his son, Steve Harley, and daughter, Dr Jennifer Harley Chalmers. Dr Harley does not coach people via the telephone coaching system. He runs the MB weekend seminars, and if you attend one of those, you then have direct email access to Dr Harley, via a private forum, for follow-up help.

That means that while Dr Harley has laid down a very specific programme with clear principles for rending an affair and restoring a marriage, it is another person (his son Steve), who interprets the advice when coaching people in their specific situations.

While we might expect a complete mirroring of Dr Harley's written advice, in practice there are occasional variations advised by Steve at the coaching centre. I don't know why this is, but I have read about this a few times on this forum. It isn't often, and I think it is in the most difficult or complicated circumstances.

Anyway, my point is that DDD is not coaching with Dr Harley.

Thanks, RMJ. I'm thankful for the opportunity to read and learn from people in a similar boat as me.

I'll ask Steve Harley about writing something on special circumstances, but my guess is that it's a case by case basis depending on where things stand in the relationships in question.

For us, my H and S have been around each other for almost 9 years without a flare up on his part toward her. Not sure about her exact feelings about him or whether it's ever been tough for her to be around him, but she's never made a pass at him since that time.

I gather that when things ended between them, they both knew how crazy wrong and gross and demented the whole escapade was and just buried it (with hopes of it going to their graves) and never going there again. I could be wrong, but that's what I hear, and that's what my gut tells me.

Now the way she's acted toward me is a different matter entirely.

Thanks for clarifying, SugarCane. I was confused myself.

It all sounds so logical.

H and I had second counseling appointments with Steve Harley today.

Aside from asking me how things were going (very good actually - lots and lots of excellent conversations between us) and bringing me up to speed on the assignments he's given my H, we discussed the beginning of H's affair. He talked about ENs and about how H allowed ENs to begin to be met from OW instead of me.

Yes, it all sounds so logical, even mathematical.

But it hurts like he!!.

My husband lied to me about the times he had sex with her when I found out it was from another family memeber and when I confronted them they still tried to lie about it. So I came home one day started packing her things because she did live with us and when he seen I believed they did have sex said it was only once but when asking both of them I got different scenerios so I knew right then it was more than once but he still denied it until I came home 2 wks later and told him you have 1 more chance to tell me how many times it really was and that's when he said it happened 4-5 times during a month period when he worked nights do I believe it ummm not really but we are in counseling and he is trying very hard I haven't talked to my sister but she was at a wedding we was at and came and sit by me I didn't say anything she had my nephew which is only 1 I played with while she had the nerve to ask what I've been up too....It's only been 2 months since D day and the affair happened 2 wks after our 2yr wedding annaversary...But I know alot of details He answers my questions I think that does help. I started a journel so I can vent in it and not on him working on the love bank ya know...But I think were going to make it...As for my sister maybe 10yrs down the line I might have something to do with her but I doubt it but we never know...My grandmother her husband cheated with her sister, my aunt her husband cheated with her sister and do you know they stayed together and love each other very much so Us women out there can do if we want to and our spouses... So about the long post trying to give you a little info...But you can make it if you want to and sorry you had to find out later bcause I know I would of liked to know all then not at another time makes ya wonder how many times he's lied makes it worse.

I feel the same way!! My husband told our kids and we have 4 boys one girl and do you know my oldest who is 16 looked at me like why are you still here and my daughter looked at him and said was you on drugs...None of the others said a word I do think they act alittle different around him and my daughter was very upset and she asked me some questions I answered and told her she needed to talk to him and she did they talked for like 3 hours him crying and saying how sorry he is I believe thats true..

As for being able to deal with the affair he had his affair 5-09 and I found out 2-10 he's had a whole year almost to deal with what he did and I explained to him my pain is fresh I haven't had time to deal with it liek him. He of course said he would do what ever it takes.

I think the family should know the kids everyone the more people you have backing you the better but don't talk to someone who is negative they will just bring u down talk to someone who has both ur interestes at heart.

NC forever is a must for WS's, BS's with the OP's. Even if it's family members.

In this case you and your WH had to skip the wedding or your sister/OW had to. No if's and's or but's.

That is not what SH told Delta.

This is what I am finding to be distrubing.....I thought that if you talk to Steve you get the same info as on this site....but I listened to him and Joyce on the Radio Link provided in another topic and the one that is up there this young engaged woman calls in for advice....she is not liking her future husbands friendship with a woman...she asks them if it's wrong for her to feel that way and they tell her she's just a jealous personality type and that it will never change! I about fell on the floor! WHAT...I thought he should have told her that her future husband wasn't wise for having a close friend of his being a woman....that is how affairs begin! This site if full of that info....all over....no friendships with the opposite sex. But both STeve & Joyce told this poor young girl it was her jealous personality that was the problem not her future husband having a close girl friendship going on.

I admit after hearing that I am rethinking about doing any phone counseling now....perhaps skip that and do either the weekend to meet the real DR.Willard Harley and get him involved or do the online which I believe gets him involved....I don't like mixed messages or people changing what they say every 5mins....I get that right now in my marriage and it's drivng me nuts...I am not gonna pay someone $200 for 50mins to do it!

Go listen to that show....just the 1st 9mins is the caller woman....you'll be shocked!

As far as I know, the radio program always features Dr. Bill Harley and his wife, Joyce.

Gemstone, first off, that WAS Dr Harley on the radio, not Steve. And secondly, I assure you that you misunderstood Dr Harley on that call. Delta listened to and confirmed what I thought all along:


What Delta says here sounds more like Dr Harley. He wouldn't tell someone to just suck it up like you suggest. But if you need to clarify this for yourself, CALL the show yourself on Monday between 3 and 4 cst and just ASK HIM.

I have been reading and listening to everything the man has said for 10 years and he is INCREDIBLY consistent. I could easier believe you misunderstood than believe he was inconsistent about this issue.

I just wanted to point out that no contact *IS* a stipulation that Dr Harley is ADAMANT about. *HE* is the author of Marriage Builders. If Steve bends those rules a bit, there is nothing I can say or do about that, but the BEST PRACTICE is always no contact as stipulated by Dr Harley.

I am not qualified to tell anyone to cut this important corner and fully intend on sticking to the concepts as outlined by DR Harley.

This is also what his son, Steve, said ... NC is best.

He only said, to paraphrase, let's be realistic. NC with my family for the rest of my life is not entirely realistic and would be unfair to me. If I'm okay with us being in her presence at certain events, we can make something work, otherwise it means I miss out on access to the rest of my own family.

I would prefer that she not be there, but aside from wishing she'd walk off a cliff, I have no control over her actions.

The less contact we have at certain major, public family events, the better off we'll be. It'll be tough but doable. We should refrain from all direct contact at those events, and we need to make sure we have a solid "what if" plan in place beforehand.

That's the message I took away.

If I don't sit well with even that indirect contact at major events, we don't have contact.

I'm relieved that we don't have a niece or nephew getting married this year.

Although I know that DrH has things written in his books and on this site that are his guidelines and should not be deviated from, it can also be said that SOME sitchs won't fit into the cookie cutter approach. I would NEVER(knowingly) advise someone to NOT follow the MB concepts as written DrH. If they call the MB coaching center and are advised by Steve or Jennifer, I would also NOT advise them to go against that. I believe that the coaching center listens to what the sitch is and they tailor the PLANS for them.

Thank you for being so O&H with us DDD.

"let's be realistic. NC with my family for the rest of my life is not entirely realistic and would be unfair to me. If I'm okay with us being in her presence at certain events, we can make something work, otherwise it means I miss out on access to the rest of my own family."

It's not NC with the whole family, it's NC with the OP.

The parents and siblings need to know about the affair and the need for NC. They do not have to cut out the OP. Just rotating invitations puts them in the fairest place. They are not taking sides. However to never provide the NC for half of the family gatherings shows how selfish they are.

Who would want to spend time with such selfish family?

An update on where I am emotionally:

I realized over the weekend that I've no longer been feeling the pangs of pain in my gut that I'd been having for weeks.

I've slept through the night a few times in the past week.

Simple but huge facts of life at the moment.

The weekend before last, my mom came to spend the weekend with us. It felt very comforting to have her here and have her love and support. She stayed with our kids for a couple days while I went away with my H one night; we went out to dinner and took a long walk through the city. We've been going on a ton of long walks lately - walking and talking and hugging and kissing. It's been nice.

H travels throughout our state for work, and it's been good to tag along with him a little more lately - more talking and bonding, having lunch together, taking a break to do something fun in whatever town we're in.

This weekend included more walks with our dog and a great night Saturday night when we built a fire in our backyard, turned up the music and drank a bunch of beers. I'm not much of a drinker (at all), but I told him I just felt like getting drunk. So we sang and laughed and reminisced.

All of that has helped easy my pain.

We've always enjoyed spending time together. We communicate well, have fun, joke around. That's why this whole thing has been such a shock ... that his A was with my sister for sure, but even more so, that he had an A at all. It's just so not him; In 21 years, I can't even say I've caught him looking lustfully at other women. He's a fun flirt, but so am I. We've talked about how we've turned away from being fun flirts in the past couple years and how stupid and pointless and potentially dangerous those "innocent" behaviors can be.

It hasn't all been good. Last week I decided it was time to pull out our videos from 2001. We're guilty of taking video then putting it away forever except for a few videos that we pull out from time to time like our kids' birthday videos.

Well, what I saw from that summer, 2001 when he was in his A was so repulsive. My H and S flirting with each other ... on camera. My S TOTALLY offering up her sexuality to my H and him being enticed by it ... on MY family video. Gross, gross, gross. I was sick for a full day last week. But it's proof and evidence of what occurred, and it completely affirmed my assumption about how things happened between them.

In my mind, I pictured this giddy, school boy physical attraction and urge toward this temptress of a woman. And sure enough, it was all there for me to see in full color video.

Spot on.

Right in front of me. Right in front of my BIL.

He was an absolute skanky scoundrel. But OMG she is an out of control skank. Nasty. And she kept doing this with other guys ... for years and years.

So I wonder ... how could I have been in so much denial?

How could I not have seen it?

I only sensed the flirtation one time on a camping trip, like maybe for 10 minutes. And I thought it was pretty innocent flirtation at that point. I told my H about it the next day.

Turns out that event I witnessed was toward end of their A. They had had sex twice, the first time was two months before the camping trip and the second time was a couple later, or about a 5-6 weeks before the camping trip. (Both times I was out of town for a week.)

Anyway, after I told H about how I didn't like their flirtation during the camping trip that Sunday on our way home, he ended things with her about a week and a half later.

For the moment, I feel like my anger toward my husband is gone. Who knows when it'll pop up again. (The spitting anger I have toward my S is still huge, though ... not good.)

I was so furious and went ballistic after seeing those videos, and then I talked to Steve Harley who said my anger is understandable but it's up to me to decide how I want to treat the most precious person in my life.

He is right. It's tough, but he is right.

That might be how we proceed.

I think it'll be up to me and that my family would respect my wishes, whatever they may be.

Delta, you are doing a great job. I am so sorry to read about that horrible video. I hope you and H consider burning that horrible, repulsive tape.

If your family then decides they won't attend without her, well, then, you know they are not of a mind to help your marriage and you will be unable to do much else than be NC with all of them.

If my family decides they won't attend what?

A wedding?

I think they'll leave that up to us as to whether we'll want to attend. Seems like the right approach for that type of event.

As far as holidays go, the invitation rotation seems like the best approach.

DDD,

You're blessed to have such a good mom.

About six weeks ago, my mom in her typical bullchip fashion, ran her mouth at a family event after I left. She supposedly blurted out, "what did we ever do to RMJ's H, that he doesn't come around?"

Uh, duh, beyotch, you darn well know why he doesn't come around.

And two weeks later, when there was another family get together, my OWsis all high and mighty told me that it was my dying dad who had said it. She also had the cojones to tell me that I needed to let my H come around family.

Funny thing is, my dad was peeved last week when I saw him and asked him about it. He told me it was my mom who had initiated the conversation six weeks ago. I don't know what is up and I don't really care. I figure my mom's just trying to manipulate having all the family together. I don't have time for it. maybe she has dementia...

As far as family get togethers go, my older kids in their mid to late teens, don't like to be around my OWsis. They hate her attitude and often refuse to go to family events (like if my other sis comes into town for a visit). (Unfortunately, like I mentioned before, OWsis lives near my parents.) My kids don't get a break from her.

It was difficult 2 years ago when they told me they would "watch" their Aunt and father when we were at family gatherings. That was another reason we decided NC was best. It's just a horrible position for kids... to feel awkward and uncomfortable at family gatherings because of dad and aunt's choices.

Your children are the beginning of the journey. It really takes the family unit to heal for the M to heal when there are young people in the house. I suppose your DH is going to have much work to do in healing his relationship with his children from this.

I'm sorry to hear about the video too. Sooo painful to think about. I know I have pics. They just sit in the box because while I don't want the reminder of what happened, I surely don't want to destroy pictures with my little children in them. Thankfully, there weren't any videos with *her* and with my kids, at least not from us.

DDD, maybe you can have someone edit the video to DVD so you have the children's footage, but the ugly aspects get removed. kwim?

I spoke to Steve Harley today. H and I have been doing split sessions with him the past couple times where each of us speak to him separately for about a half hour.

He asked me if I feel H is a changed man.

hmmm. No, not really. I feel he's the same loving, caring and respectful man as I thought he was 6 months ago, 5 years ago, all along. Okay, maybe a bit more so now, but a changed man? No.

He's obviously a very changed man from 9 years ago when he was in his A. That's where our situation is a little different than some of the other As on here ... my H's A was so long ago.

Do I feel that he understands his betrayal on a deeper level now, that he knows how badly screwed up for the past 9 years for allowing us to have contact with sisterskankarella? Absolutely. He was upset about it again last night. "What in the hell was I thinking?"

Indeed. What in the hell were you thinking, dear husband?

So, yes, he's learning a lot from MB and from Steve ... and from me. He's more aware of what he did (A and post A), why he did it, all the many mistakes he made along the way, what he needs to do now moving forward to protect himself better and to protect me better. He'll keep learning.

Steve said the biggest enemy in recovery is complacency, pulling back from moving forward together and changing together. Right now, we're each other's top priority. In six months from now, we still need to be.

He said faithfulness is a product of the lifestyle that you live. That despite the important lessons we'll learn through this process, our human nature is still vulnerable to temptation and weakness. And temptation doesn't usually smack you in the face. We allow it to creep in subtly, in a way that doesn't register until we're neck deep in it.

We need to keep our guard up.

Little details matter.

We have to have a full understanding of our emotional needs, what we're drawn and attracted to so that we don't allow someone other than our spouse to subtly meet those needs.

Living that guarded lifestyle is where trust comes from.

Right now, I'm in a better place emotionally than I've been in for two months, but there will be bumps in the road.

There are ebbs and flows.

Steve said I'll need to work on protecting H from myself when I'm hurt and angry, when my injury that is healing gets bumped.

I should tell him when I'm hurting so we can work through my pain together, but I should also work on never being disrepectful - no yelling or rudeness.

There you have it ... my update for the day.

Needing to vent about OW/sisterskankarella ...

Previously in this thread I mentioned her other affairs.

2-3 weeks ago I contacted her one long-term AP who is a single guy (her son's hockey coach) to inform him of her sexual A with my H.

I did this for a couple reasons, one of which was to find out if she ever mentioned to him the A she had with my husband (he said she didn't but spoke "fondly" of him), another was to find out whether anything was still going on between her and this guy.

He told me she sexted him earlier this year. The story is that she "did not have sexual relations with this man" a la the Clinton scandal (everything but intercourse, yeah, whatever). I told my BIL this information, he swept it under the rug and apparently continues to believe her lies that it was only an EA for 2+ years. He also believes her lies that she hasn't continued to contact this guy in the past 6 months plus.

Irritating, but it's not my problem what lies the BIL wants to believe.

I have to admit that I also liked hearing from this guy that he thinks she's a relentless liar, manipulator, stalker.

Secondly, I contacted two women who are wives of men who I've learned in the past few weeks are rumored to have had relationships with sisterskankarella. I informed these women of her A with my H and her A with her son's hockey coach. Both knew about the A with hockey coach, both thanked me for contacting them and both told me women have discussed through the years the need to keep their husbands away from her. One of them said "she lavished (H) with a creepy amount of attention and phone calls" but she believed him when he swore that nothing physical happened between them. Yeah, whatever.

Sisterskankarella and BIL are now proceeding with the narrative to my other sisters that I'm a total lunatic who will stop at nothing to destroy her and that I need to stop harassing her like this.

She's been claiming she's suicidal over the past several weeks, and my oldest sister (who's way too emotionally invested in this saga) called on me last night to stop the hate and harassment. That she just doesn't understand it.

I told her I did nothing wrong with this exposure, that she needs to mind her own business and that I do not need her approval or disapproval.

I've told all sisters that I don't want to discuss this matter any more with any of them (the other two don't want to, either) and that I only want to discuss other topics from now on.

Did I do anything wrong by contacting those three people?

It sure doesn't feel like it.

No, you are fine. Sometimes family members just want to avoid conflict. You exposing makes things more complicated for them because they feel they have to be their for your sister who is just acting like a drama queen.

You are AWESOME!! You have done nothing wrong. Screwing married men is "hate and harassment;" exposing that skanky is not. Everyone should know! It is not your fault your sister is embarassed by her skankho behavior. Everyone needs to know so they can a) protect their marriages and b) get STD testing.

Tell your older sister that you are doing a public service to warn others so their marriages are not also destroyed by your skank sister.

Good job!!

Right on, Melody!

DDD, you are awesome. Tell the truth! It is what it is. I agree that you are doing a public service by letting the word out. People in your sister's circles need to know what a home wrecker she is. She's no friend of M and she certainly is no friend of children.

Tell your sisters to get their heads outta their butts. Your OW/sis seems to need some help...what is it with her going after all these OM that have connections to the children in her life? Her son's hockey coach? The father of her niece and nephew? puke!

My gawd, you must want to shake some sense into her.

I don't think she's too emotionally invested. I think she's just emotionally invested in the wrong side!

I think you're right!

She keeps saying "I've got your back."

Well, listening to skankarella's sob stories about how low she's feeling and agreeing with how awful I'm treating her is not having my back.

I guess I just need to just stop talking to this sister.

Hi, everyone. Haven't posted in a while, but I've been reading various threads every day. It's so helpful to read about how others are doing along this journey.

Things have been decent for H and I. We are doing OK on our own - still counseling with Steve Harley, currently working on our ENs and LBs. I went away with H one night last week, and that's always nice to have lots of undivided attention with one another.

He's so in love with me and treats me so well ... yet that's one of the hardest parts for me. I look back and know he was so in love with me that summer, too. Steve Harley said that's pretty common. sigh! It makes me sad.

There have been some family issues the past couple weeks. I don't want to rehash them here because I'm so totally exhausted from them, but in a nutshell, sisterskankarella (gosh, I love that term) was caught in a couple lies she told about my H and I. A couple issues were hard for me because I questioned H's honesty, but in the end, she admitted to lying about them to other sisters, so her credibility was shot just a little more with them.

All of that interferes with healing between H and I, and I hate that. I have to just let my involvement go. Even if she makes something else up in the future, I have to trust that my family will question her honesty (they say they always will) and that the truth will come to light eventually without me getting worked up about it and taking my frustration and anger out on H ... even though his actions 9 years ago are the root of this anguish.

Easier said than done.

I've been having a really tough time getting past visualizing H in the act with her. Does anyone have specific tips for for getting over this?

When I visualize these acts, I feel numb and I hardly want to talk to him. I'm just pretty silent. I know that's totally normal, but I know it's not good for us.

Steve told me yesterday, "Remember: you're not mad and disgusted at H as he is now; you're mad and disgusted at the H from 2001."

Yeah, but the current H is the only H I see.

I'm going to bump my own thread just to highlight this question I posted above:

I've been having a really tough time getting past visualizing H in the act with her. Does anyone have specific tips for for getting over this?

DDD-Here is a thread by Marks on memories. Hope this helps.

Mark's Managing Memory thread.

This is the crap I deal with. Thank your lucky stars that your OW/OM isn't in your family.

I got a call from one of my sisters last night asking me if "something happened" yesterday because sisterskankarella sent out an email to my family. She forwarded it to me:

---

Subject: the good fight

Hey,

I have done all I can do. No matter what, I am a wh*r* and a liar. I will not continue with this abuse. You are officially "off the hook" with me. Love you all, but enough is enough.

Love,
sisterskankarella

---

I could just envision several = not all - siblings running to her rescue, so I offered up this alternative that I sent in an email:

---

i'm writing this because i care about (sisterskankarella).

her "off the hook" translation = call me, call me, call me ... tell me i'm not really that bad and allow me point fingers to help me take away my pain.

this is simply another sympathy ploy from an attention seeker. she has suffered no abuse. being held accountable for your actions is not abuse.

how about we choose to not run to her this time but rather allow her to work out her lying and other issues with her trained professional?

a simple response of "i love you and always will but you need to work these issues out with your therapist and your therapist alone" would do her wonders. i know first hand because i've given her my sympathy (some of the time) in response to her issues for years, and sadly i didn't do her any favors. i didn't truly help her.

instead, the sympathy she has gotten through the years in response to her poor behavior has made things a lot worse.

if we really love her, we will direct her to her therapist. every time.

if you allow her to "vent," she will talk about me or someone else and say how much we've wronged her and how she is such a victim instead of focusing on her own actions and her own responsibilities and her own self improvement. it will not help her in the long run.

i care enough to want her to get the real help she needs this time and not fall back on others like a crutch like she has in the past. i hope you feel the same.

---

OK, so I exaggerated about the "i care enough" part. I just can't stand it that a couple of them still fall for her crap.

Nothing I can do, nothing I can do, nothing I can do.

I have to keep repeating this to myself until it finally sinks in.

Didn't I JUST say that I have to let my involvement go?

What is wrong with me?

SCREEEEEEEEEEEAM!!!!!!!!!!

I see no reason for that email to have been forwarded to you. YOu can't, obviously, control other family members' relationship with OW.

This is where the NC part is really challenging for you. Did SH give you any advice about the degree to which you should keep apprised of your sister through family? What are your expectations and desires about NC in terms of stuff like this, and how does your family feel about it?

No, SH really hasn't.

If I ask questions, they answer. It's my fault. I shouldn't ask the questions. That's how I've found out about a couple lies she's told about me. I asked for the email to be forwarded to me. My fault.

I know this. It is my responsibility to not inquire.

FWIW, I'd probably be really bad at not letting my curiosity get the better of me, too. I might have to disengage from everyone for a while.

Such a tough situation - I feel for you.

I've been trying really, really hard to focus on me and H only for the past week rather than of allowing any discussions or inquiries from me to family members about what OW's been saying about me/us.

I want to move on from that completely because it offers me no advantage and only brings me down. NC really needs to mean NC(conversation) about her with others, including family.

Common sense stuff, I guess, that'll take me to where I need to go, but it's been a tough one for me to overcome with my sisters.

H and I spoke with Steve Harley this morning. I said that I've been reading on the forums and throughout MB about no longer discussing A. He reiterated that since I have all my questions answered to my satisfaction, H and I should no longer discuss A and instead move on from here, making forward progress as a couple.

Seems weird to just never discuss it again, but he asked "for what purpose?" and "to what advantage?" and I don't really have valid answers. He suggested me telling H when I'm feeling down so that H can help me think/talk about another subject.

I keep getting stuck on "how could H do this to me?" and SH keeps warning me against that faulty thinking ... that this was not something H did deliberately and intentionally to me to hurt me. That he was thinking/acting selfishly because he lacked proper boundaries when he allowed ENs to be met by someone other than his wife. H dismissed me in the equation because he was "under the influence."

OK, so I've gone through this with SH a couple other times, and it all makes logical sense, and then I go back to "how could H do this to me?" Something I'll need to work on ...

We're going to a wedding on Saturday (H's family). I'm looking forward to it, but SH warned me that it might be rough for me to sit through wedding vows, etc.

DDD, bringing it up again triggers you both and keeps you enmeshed in trauma rather than focused on recovery. I have noticed that the BS's who follow this advice are much happier, much sooner. I kept my marriage in turmoil for about 2 years by dragging this out, but once I decided to shut up, my marriage took a distinct turn.

This is one of those exercises where you need to bring the body and the mind will follow.

That's what I'm hoping for, ML. I'm really, really hoping.

H and I went out to dinner with friends last night, and in the middle of me laughing and talking to my girlfriends, I started visualizing disgusting acts from "the black months" (as we agreed with SH this morning to call them).

I didn't get sad while my mind raced, but I was so very irritated that I have to deal with this BS in the middle of my enjoyable evening.

Do these visualizations simply ease up/happen less frequently in time?

Do antidepressants help ease these mind games? I've never tried them before, but I'm considering it.

Updating this thread. I want to say how helpful MB has been to my H and I and our recovery process over the past several months.

We've learned a lot through MB, including the fact that communicating the truth is always the best policy. Always. Even if the truth is a negative thing that's going to hurt, people deserve to live with the full truth. There is no real healing, forgiveness nor redemption when you deal in lies, partial truths, hidden facts, dishonesty.

H and I are doing pretty well. Our relationship is in very good shape, all things considered. We enjoy each other's company and spend a lot of time together -- one on one, with our kids, with friends. He is so good to me, treats me with so much gentleness, love and devotion. I still can't believe this wonderful man was capable of such atrocity against me and our marriage. But he was.

I was vacationing with my mom and a couple friends recently (one of whom is the sister of my BIL/OWsister's husband ... that's how twisted this mess is), and my mom and friends were talking about my H saying they wish they could clone him. OK, that's taking it a bit far. I understand he's a good guy and all, but he cheated on me. With my sister. Let's not get carried away. They understood.

I definitely still have my times of upset about the A and its horrendous aftermath. The aftermath is our divorce from my S and BIL and the shake up of my family. I feel so sad for my mom who knows her family will never be the same again. But with the exception of one sister who gets sucked into the OWsister's cries of victimization (yep, she's still doing it; more on that later), the others are so supportive and caring toward me. One sister asked H and I to vacation with her and her H this winter, and we're going to go along with a brother and his wife.

In bringing this thread up to speed, I should state that a couple issues arose the past few months that I started new threads about rather than adding to this one:

1) "Suggestions for 14yo daughter handling A "secret"?" - End of June

Summary:

• In April, with the help of this forum, we told our 14yo and 13yo kids the truth about H's A with my S that occurred 9 years ago.
• As of the end of June, my sister and BIL hadn't told their 17yo and 15yo kids the truth, but their kids knew the adults were fighting.
• Our kids were going to be around these cousins, and I asked this forum for suggestions about how our kids, especially our daughter, might handle that uncomfortable situation since she knew the truth but her cousins didn't.
• In the end, the cousins were told by their parents about the A ... along with a great deal of spin that demonized me once again (outlined on pg. 15 of the thread). Some of the demonizing spin: the A was 10 yrs ago (lie - it was 9yrs ago) which is so long ago to matter now, their mom had told their dad the truth way back then (lie - she had only told him partial truth ... that it was a couple kisses, not sex), their dad hasn't retaliated like I have, the A happened before the adulterers had God in their lives (lie), the adulterers are different people now changed by God (lie - their mom was recently in another long term A with her son's hockey coach in addition to a number of other flings; BIL is an adulterer too), that I'm making too big a deal out of the whole thing, that I need to forgive my S, that I should have handled this better and kept the kids out of it, that I've hurt everyone, that I'm purposely trying to hurt my S by telling my entire family about the A.
• Their kids didn't ever seem to be to be upset about the A itself, even showing up for a family dinner at a restaurant me and H were having with other family members the very day they learned he banged their mom years ago. My 15yo nephew told our daughter "I could never be mad at Uncle ______; he's too cool of a guy." :eyeroll:

2) "On MB Radio in 5 Minutes" - Early October

Summary:

• I wrote to the Harleys through their MB Radio program asking for guidance on how to handle weddings and other celebratory events that occur in my family in order to follow NC. I'm referring to events hosted by other brothers and sisters and their kids; it's a big family.
• Dr. Harley restated his reasons for NC: "One is for himself to make sure he doesn't rekindle the relationship and for there to be no opportunity for it to re-emerge. The other, of course, is for the sake of the betrayed spouse, that any contact made is a terrible offense to the betrayed spouse."
• Dr Harley compared the feelings I would have being around my sister to feelings I would have being in the presence of my rapist: "Let's suppose someone were to rape you and it were to be a devastating experience, you would be held for three days, raped repeatedly, and they would want to encourage you to forgive this person and invite him to all the family functions. You can see how unreasonable that would be. Well, in this case, your sister would affect you the way your rapist would affect you. Your sister literally affects you the way someone who had done the most disgraceful, despicable thing to you imaginable would affect you. The pain and suffering you would experience being with your sister for a family event would so far outweigh the pleasure that your family members would have seeing you and your sister together for that event that there's just no question that it is something that they should not want you to experience and you should not make yourself experience. A lot of women have told me who have experienced rape and infidelity that the infidelity is worse, is harder for them. So the idea of a rapist showing up for weddings occasionally, and you're never sure when he's going to be there, pretty well limits you to the weddings you can attend."
• His advice was: "I think you can explain to whoever's having the wedding that if they would like you to be there, they can't invite your sister. I think that would be the way to handle it. Say 'I will come if my sister is not there. My sister had an affair with my husband, I have forgiven her but I can't be with her.' "
• Here's a link to the broadcast: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2264# and http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2265# (MB 101110 A and B).

I shared this broadcast with a couple family members, and I'll tell you their response soon. This post is long enough already.

On to sharing the response I've received so far after sending the radio broadcast to family.

When my husband listened to the broadcast, he said that while he agrees with everything Dr. Harley said, he thinks I'll be disappointed with some family members' reactions since people can find professional advice to back up any point of view. He was right.

I've shared the broadcast with two sisters so far. One sister is 100% supportive of me, fully understands NC, and thinks Dr. Harley was right on. The other sister is the one swayed by the OWsister's cries of victimization. This sister thought Dr. Harley was grossly exaggerating when making the rape comparison. She thinks there is no comparison. She has never been raped, doesn't have a husband, never had a husband who cheated on her, only a boyfriend who cheated on her, yet in her opinion Dr. Harley's opinions are overboard.

So there you have it. Same broadcast. Totally different takeaways after listening to it.

The sister that thought Dr. Harley was exaggerating, her son (like a brother to me) and his wife invited us for Thanksgiving. We were planning to go and stay with them for a few days ... until I heard that they also invited OWsister and her husband to a party they're having Saturday.

I asked nephew to verify whether OWsister was invited; he said yes, doubted she'd come but said he can't say for sure. I shared the broadcast with him and asked him to please no longer invite me to events that OWsister's invited to, sparing me from having to guess or discuss whether she'll be there.

H and I decided to not even go down for Thanksgiving day. Not worth the potential chaos of her "maybe" showing up on Saturday which would make it necessary for us to leave early. We want and need peace, not anxiety.

Nephew and his wife also think Dr. Harley exaggerated in his comparison. Nephew has said a few times to me that he totally understands why I'd never want to speak to OWsister again and that he wouldn't forgive her if he were in my place, yet he thinks the rape comparison is faulty because rape is physical abuse while the A is emotional.

Whatever. Bottom line is they don't get it. They don't understand how the trigger would have a similar affect on me. Why put myself in that spot? And if I don't feel comfortable, I cannot for the life of me understand why any of my loved ones would think I should put myself in that spot, despite what any expert says.

It's so very frustrating that some people won't get it, no matter what factual information they hear. Why, why, why can't they just intuitively understand the way so many other family members and friends do that it's not a good thing for me to be around this person? Even someday?

My nephew's wife and I exchanged emails, and here's part of what she said:

People who have not been through tragedies in their own lives have a hard time understanding the devastation of adultery. My son was killed the same year my last H left me for his OW and I will tell you that his affair was as traumatic as the death of my 18 year old son. Both of those traumas still affect me deeply today.

From "Defending Traditional Marriage" by Dr Willard Harley - pg 143:



Dr Harley also discusses it here:

How to Survive Infidelity

Some of Dr Harley's posts to members on the weekend forum:

written to a WH: here

here

p.s. I would point out that Dr Harley is a clincial psychologist who has counseled thousands over his 40 year career and he is in a better position to understand the devastation than someone who has never experienced a tragedy from a front row seat.

I was repeatedly sexually abused as a child. Imagine worrying about whether or not you're pregnant by your 28 yo BIL at the age of nine.

Guess which one was worse - that, or my FWH's affair. The affair.

People who haven't been through it will not get it.

MelodyLane and Maritalbliss, wow, thank you for your words and for sharing your own personal comparisons.

Another sister suggested that I read this one book about stupid things well-meaning people say to a parent when a child dies. She thought it might help me better shrug off some of the ridiculous things people say so that I can remain focused on lovingly repairing my marriage and establishing healthy boundaries.

Well, she's got the right idea - people will say ignorant things, because they have no basis for their comments.

I like that you've remained focused on the most important thing: your marriage.

You know what, though? I have never had anyone tell me about my son's death to "just get over it." Or that I was being "dramatic" or "ridiculous" about my grief. All of the stupid things said to me about my son's death were not offensive like the things I have been told about my XH's affair. I cannot think of a single time my grief was dismissed with contempt in the 10 years since my son was killed. I can't say the same about my H's affair.

I have even had people on this board suggest I am a nutjob for making the comparison.

I can only imagine.

How painful and irritating those judgments must have been for you. Must still be.

I can't imagine anything being so devastating and traumatic as losing one of my children. But it would be silly for me to say there's no comparison between that and some other tragedy in life because I haven't experienced it myself.

There's no way I could have understood how devastating and traumatic adultery is before it personally affected me. I walked with two friends through their recoveries from their husbands' affairs. I witnessed devastation like I'd never seen, but I didn't feel it or truly experience it myself.

There's a big difference.

I'm so glad that we at least have MB and the Harleys to acknowledge the severity of our pain as we cope with adultery.

DDD --

You are right to dis-associate with your OWSister. Particularily since she has not changed her wayward mindset, tries to minimize the betrayal of you, blames her victim -- and has continued her behavior.

She is simply too much of a risk.

You may feel differently someday if she truly experiences a change and becomes a FORMER wayward...she is still CURRENTLY wayward in her way of thinking. Maybe someday she will finally understands the enormity of what she did. Maybe someday you will sense true remorse from her.

Recovery of the sister relationship might not be unlike the recovery of the marriage. The very first thing required would be a humble heart full of remorse.

That hasn't happened. And it may never happen.
And until then...stay safe.

You are so right.

I'll share an email OWsister sent to my entire family about six weeks ago that illustrates your point. Prepare yourself. It's incomprehensible. Don't forget to click on the hyperlink she includes at the end.


Just look at the way she misspells the word "judgements." Why oh why can't people use spellcheck?

(trying to find some humor in her pathetic attempt to paint me as the abuser)

From what I know, her email was ignored. In a way it upsets me that my mom, sisters, brothers, her SILs (her H's sisters/my friends) tell me how ridiculous and outrageous she sounds when she acts like she's some sort of victim, yet they refrain from telling her to shut up already. But they all seem to think it's more effective to ignore her.

And then I realize they're probably right. She wants attention. The ones who have her number don't give her the attention she seeks.

But seriously, did you read the linked webpage? Can you believe she's diagnosing me as an emotional abuser who hasn't come to terms with my past emotional issues? I mean this just gets better and better.

How bizarre! A person who feels no remorse for their crimes is dangerous. She indicted herself with that email attempting to paint you as an "abuser." You didn't "shame" her; she did that with her own actions.

And well she should be ashamed!!

Delta,

Listened to your radio show and you were great!!!

You asked the same questions I have wondered about and it was so helpful to hear the answers directly from Dr.Harley.

Just know when your tears came I cried with you...

It's hard for others to know sometimes just how devastating having the OP be your own flesh and blood actually is...

Just wanted to let you know that the above post where you took the time to summarize some of the key points was fantastic and right on.

The difficulty in not only recovering our marriages but also of trying not to alienate the rest of the family sometimes is overwhelming...

Dr.Harley was able to give some very helpful insight and I can't thank you enough for sharing it with us.

God bless you,

Jim

DDD, it is good to hear that you are doing better. I am happy for you.

I can't imagine how hard it is to deal with an A when the OP is a sibling. That is a double betrayal and you are expected to be the "good" person and forgive and forget.

I do have one thing to ask however. How did this email from your sis find its way to you? NC should be for BOTH you AND FWH. Plan B your sister. Let everyone know around you that you wish to know NOTHING about what goes on with your sister. Stay out of the wayward drama. Protect yourself.

I couldn't agree with you more Scottie.

That is the same thing some members of my family have told me...

that it is not consistent with forgiveness to not have reconciliation...

I disagree with them...

For one thing, my ex-brother has not asked to be forgiven...

IF he ever does I will, as a Christian, attempt to do so...

HOWEVER...

THERE WILL NEVER BE RECONCILIATION WITH THE OP OF THE AFFAIR...

I will not break no contact with him because of the two reasons Dr.Harley advises no contact:

Because of the possibility of the affair resuming...

and...

Because contact with the OP will destroy me emotionally...

What some in the church sometimes forget about forgiveness is this...

Christ commands forgiveness for REPENTANT sinners...

HOWEVER...

HE DID NOT COMMAND THE CHRISTIANS TO VOLUNTEER TO LINE UP AT THE COLISEUM TO BE LIONBAIT.

HE HIMSELF avoided his enemies until the Lord's time had come to offer HIMSELF as our sacrifice.

NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT COMMAND US TO VOLUNTEER TO BE ABUSED BY OTHERS.

It, in fact, teaches us to DISTANCE ourselves from those that do evil and are nonrepentant.

God bless.

Jim

Couldn't have said it better Jim.

I'm guilty.

OWsister contacted me via text. I shouldn't have responded to her but did, and we had a nasty exchange. I then found out how to block texts and blocked her.

So a week or so later I asked someone if they had heard about the incident. I shouldn't have asked. I was told she sent out that letter, and I asked for it to be forwarded to me.

I know ... there's no benefit to me and I should not be involved.

This one didn't even bother me because she sounds like such an idiotic lunatic.

Thanks much, Jim. I'm glad it helped you too.

Jim, here's another article that may interest you:
Regret, Sorrow and True Contrition:...ly But Just Keep On Doing Hurtful Things

"Living and dealing with persons of deficient character is always difficult. But many people increase the level of pain they experience in their relationships with problem characters by buying into the notion that if a person says they�re sorry, sheds a tear, or looks unhappy, things will necessarily be different. They give too much regard to a person�s regret and sorrow and don�t look hard enough for evidence of true contrition. A person�s genuine willingness and commitment to make amends is always accompanied by plan of action to accomplish precisely those ends. In short, a person�s actions always speak louder than their words or even their emotional expressions. The contrite person starts doing things differently."

DDD just remember that waywards THRIVE on drama. It's like breathing. Don't feed them. They will latch on to someone else and leave you alone.

Thanks Delta!!!

The article hit the nail on the head about TRUE repentance being marked by contrition. My ex-brother is a MASTER at getting people to feel sorry for him and how he is SOOOOOO sorry for what he did by telling THEM how sorry he is...

but not ME...

because if he was TRULY repentant he would be trying to prove it with his ACTIONS not trying to enlist other family members support.

My dad told me what a good CHRISTIAN my ex-brother has become the other day...

Had an "I LOVE JESUS" facebook like on his facebook friends page...

Silly me had to look...

MAYBE he was changing...

YES, there it was right in his friends listing...

RIGHT NEXT TO THE LISTING FOR THE LOCAL STRIP CLUB!!!

Jim

Looking for your feedback ...

H and I were talking about how the most troublesome part of this horrible mess for me continues to be underlying pressure from certain family members that sooomeday ... blah, blah, blah ... I'll be such a forgiving person that I'll be able to be around OWsister. That I'm the one who's holding back on reconciliation.

Just yesterday I was talking to another sister whose daughter is getting married in the spring. We were discussing the wedding, and she said she'd be inviting "everyone." I said she may want to reconsider to make it less stressful for everyone, including her, and only invite me or OWsister. But then I changed the subject because H asked me to let him handle the issue instead of me having to.

The unspoken onus has been on me.

H wants to change that so the onus on him.

H wants to send to a letter to this sister's H.

What do you think about this letter? What would you change or delete or add?

(p.s. I wanted to include the abuse paragraph because of what OWsister is throwing around ... that I'm abusing her. Leave it in or take it out?)

I didn't read the whole letter(sorry it IS long). All I want to say is that I think you need a different approach to this sitch. I think, instead of changing everyone else's opinions and behaviour, you just need to tweek your own.

What do I mean? What I think you are missing here is that you are asking your family to choose sides. You are asking them to choose when OWsis or you go somewhere. Take the choice out of their hands. Let them invite who they want. And then, assuming(you are going to be in a Plan B type thing with your OWsis) that OWsis will be there, you will decline the invite. You will thank the person for inviting you and you will say, "I am sorry, my H and I will be unable to attend. We wish you well."

Does that mean that you will miss out on a lot of good events in your family life? Sure. But, you have made the choice to recover your marriage properly, and that means without seeing your OWsis EVER.

It seems that the letter DID bother you more than you let on. I know that you are trying to shrug it off, but it got to you. Especially how your sis accused you of being an abuser. It would upset anyone. You need to go dark on her. No contact is for BOTH you and your H.

So, I would say scrap the whole letter to BIL.

I hope I explained myself well enough.

Also, as far as what others believe you should be doing differently, tell them that you appreciate their opinion and you have decided to do things this way. Don't try to educate people about what SHOULD be done. Just tell them what you are doing and that the reason for it is to simply protect you and your marriage. Afterall, they can't argue that you should protect yourself and your marriage.

There are ALWAYS people who think that we shouldn't use MB because it is counter-intuitive. Once they see how you start to recover, they stop telling you that you are doing the right thing.

I understand what you're saying, Scotland. It seems awfully complicated for H to get on the phone every time there's an invite to ask the host if OWsister is coming. Is that the better approach? He wants me to stay out of it to spare me turmoil, and I agree.

How should we approach explaining NC to the family then?

Starting with the "I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact" paragraph, the letter is about NC.

It hasn't been explained to them before. They think it's all my decision.

I think it is entirely appropriate for your FWH to protect you from your family's misguided intentions. I think it is wonderful that he take on that role.

I like his letter. What I would skip is attaching the broadcast. You don't need to justify yourselves. You already state the source in your letter -- and it seems that your family doesn't "get" the comparison to rape in the broadcast, and it may distract from your message.

OK, so how do we tell them?

What's the best way?

I differ with Lexxy on this. I like the idea of attaching the radio show. Hearing a credentialed psychologist explain the dynamics at play here is very impactful. Sure, some won't get it, but many will.

I applaud your H for taking the lead on this!

p.s. I would be sure and tell them your story is in segment A and B.

Lexxxy, although I agree that it is good that her H has decided to take on that role, I think where this gets complicated is the fact that this IS DDD's sis. Normally, a family would totally understand and agree with NC. My mother, for example, would NEVER think that I should be okay with being around OW if my WH were to return. The complication is only in the fact that OW is a family member and although her H is her family, he isn't blood. And, families sometimes feel that the "blood" should always be forgiven sins that others should not. I think that if DDD were to get an honest opinion from her family members, some might even say that she should D her H and be friends with her sis again. It's crazy talk, but it is what a lot of people might feel.

DDD, what would would say to them is something along the lines of,

"My H and I are following a recovery program that has been created by a man named Dr Harley. He has counseled THOUSANDS of couples in his 40 year career. He has many books on marriage and one titled "Surviving an Affair." This book tells how to survive an affair and create a better marriage than before.

A part of the process that he describes is the rule that the wayward spouses(the people who had the affair) should be in no contact with each other FOR LIFE. This ensures that the affair will never reignite and it also is meant to protect the betrayed spouse from further pain. My H and I have decided that this is the right thing for us. This is the plan that we have decided to follow.

I appreciate the advice that you give me, as I know that it comes from a place of love. I only ask that you respect our decision to proceed with our recovery from my H's A in this manner. Any support you could give us is greatly appreciated. Thank you for thinking about me and wanting to protect me.

If you are at all interested in the Marriage Builders program, or about Dr Harley, you could visit the website www.marriagebuilders.com.

Again, thank you.
DDD"

I found that as long as I showed confidence in the MB program and DrH, people tended to respect my decisions. Also, it helps to know a lot about the program and have an ability to explain it effectively. I actually even had some of the people want to check it out. I don't know if they ever did but they stopped questioning my choices and instead were interested in learning about MB.

So you think he should send the letter?

Where's the poll option in these threads? haha

Do you think some parts should be omitted? I know it's long. I kept wanting him to add stuff.

I would chop it back to about 3-4 paragraphs and include the radio links; you don't want to lose your audience with a too long email. He can make that point with less words.

I think the letter is great -- but I agree with ML that it could be shortened a bit.

If you're going to send the link -- maybe don't lead with it?
Include it at the end...and say this advice was specifically addressed to our situation and given to us by the author and founder of the Marriage Builders program.

Hi (BIL). I want to share this radio broadcast with you and ask you to listen to it with (your wife).

http://richwith.com/mb/radio/shows/10-2010/10-13-10/
(MB 101110 - segments A and B)

Since weddings for a couple of your daughters are on the horizon, I wanted to share this broadcast with you and kindly ask that (my wife) and I only be invited to events hosted by your family in which (OWsister) is not invited. We understand that (my wife) won't be invited to certain events in order for (OWsister) to have her turn. This approach will actually relieve all of us from having to discuss and have anxiety about who's going and who's not, which would only create a lot of chaos and flare ups for everyone.

I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact. There is simply no way around it. This is what I must do for my wife and marriage, for protection for her and protection for me. I would be undermining my marriage and our family by allowing the no contact policy to be broken.

Many clinical psychologists like Dr. Harley have counseled couples for decades and truly understand the devastation infidelity causes and what's needed to repair the damage. Contact even years from now would likely trigger intense suffering for me, (my wife) and our marriage and cause new struggles for us. I know nobody wants that.

(BIL), we really appreciate all the support and prayers from you and (your wife) through this. I'm so sorry for the pain and complications I've caused both of you and the rest of the family. (My wife) and I are doing well and are really looking forward to our vacation with you two.

We love you both, MrDelta and Delta

How about:

"I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact. This is what I have chosen to do for my wife and marriage, for our protection. I would be undermining my marriage and our family by allowing the no contact policy to be broken."

I think this makes it a bit clearer that the NC is a personal choice of DDD's H, and not something being forced upon him.

Scotland, I appreciate your thoughts, but I can assure you that nobody in my family thinks I should divorce my husband.

deltadrivedeceit

�I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact.�

Pointless, they will believe the WH is taking the heat for the BW.

�There is simply no way around it.�

Cut the justification, if you were in the right you should not have to justify your actions is the way the family is going to see this.

�This is what I must do for my wife and marriage, for protection for her and protection for me. I would be undermining my marriage and our family by allowing the no contact policy to be broken.�

More hot air and justification.


How about:

Dear family
Clinical psychologists like Dr. Harley have counseled couples for decades and truly understand the devastation infidelity causes and how to repair the damage.

Continued contact now and years from now will trigger memories of what was done and re inflict the pain the affair brought WH and BW. Loving feelings and a healthy marriage can not happen when contact brings constant negative reminders. It�s one thing to forgive but another to forget.

Then second thing about no contact, NC is that statistically it has been proven that affairs can restart when there is contact. When contact happens post affair, whether one year, ten, twenty, thirty years past the affair the odds are to high that the affair will restart.

WH, BW and I�m sure OW, OWH do not want to see this affair restarted as well as the rest of the family. As you can see NC is not about punishing the family but protecting the family. It�s not about taking sides, it about the family providing buffer zones so NC is maintained.

WH and I are not saying don�t invite OW and OWH to family functions. Just don�t invite us to the same events as you invite them. If you feel the need to invite both of us because you don�t want to take sides we won�t take it personal but please do not take it personal that we won�t go.

Sincerely WH BW

No reason to feel embarrassed when you receive an invitation to ask did they invite the OW OWH.

As families will want to do they may lie and say the OW OWH were not invited. Do not be angry at them cause they think that they were trying to be peace makers. The end justified the means would be their logic. Even though your marriage has recovered to them the whole family has not recovered because everyone can�t be together to celebrate because of NC.

If you find yourself in that situation just quietly and quickly leave. The only other thing you can say to family is that if their spouse became a WS would they still want the OP to come and socialize and celebrate with their WS and the rest of the family. Were do they want the OP to be seated at the thanksgiving table? OP one side of the WS the BS one the WS�s other side?

Thanks for the edits.

Here's the revision so far:

Thanks, TheRoad. Good points. we'll rework a couple things.

Yeah, I suppose it did ... not that she thinks or says it (that I honestly laugh at) but that anyone else would take her word or sympathize with her. That bothers me.

Part of me wanted to defend myself, but I didn't. My family either knows in their hearts that I'm the real victim or they don't. No point in debating it. Although I did want to include that paragraph about me being the victim ...

I did call her a repulsive w**re a couple times within a week of finding out she had sex with my husband. If that makes me an abuser, it is news to me.

Thanks for this, Scotland. No contact period. I'm one step closer after blocking her texts.

DDD,

My sister slept with her daughter's husband.

The result was that the couple tried to reconcile, but never could, and ended up getting a divorce. It was awful for my niece.

That was about 10 or so years ago.

For a very long time, my niece would not have contact with her mother. She felt much better about life then.

Only her three sisters bugged and bugged her for this "forgiveness" thing, to make the family happy, and the grandkids happy.

No one seemed to give a good crappola about whether or not my niece would be happy. After all, she was "ONLY" the victim.

So she tried to reconcile with her mom.

To this day, my niece tries and then has to pull back again - and has done this over and over and over. It has caused her no end of grief and stress.

She says she wants to forgive her mom, and so she tries to have contact. Only when she sees her mom's face


in person


it is all she can do to keep from either attacking her or withering away inside.


I told her that it is okay to never see her mom again. Somewhere in there, she knows this is true. The problem is


her stupid family will NOT let her have no contact


because they are all so stupid they have overlooked the fact that she suffered an ultimate betrayal

and they only want what is good

FOR THEMSELVES.


The further outcropping of this garbage?

One of the sisters has been married four times - TWICE WERE AFFAIRAGES.
Another of the sisters had a child with her OM, while still married, then divorced her husband for the OM and they are now in an affairage. She blames the betrayed husband.

The third sister grieves over the issue, wants everyone to "get along", and so accepts the crap that the mom and two sisters dish out about my niece - and that she should just

GET OVER IT.


She will never get over it. Her mother betrayed her, and her husband betrayed her

and now the family wants to throw HER under the bus and keep on driving.




Do not break the no contact.

Your sister

is not your sister anymore.

She stopped being that person when she betrayed you.


The rest of your family, if they don't get on board


should lose out on the BEST thing they could have had

which is you
and your INTACT marriage, and healthy new life with your husband.


It is their choice. Somehow, I know they will be stupid too.




And I use the word "stupid" in every sense of the word, on purpose, because how else can anyone explain the behavior?



Your strength is in your marriage. Reach there for it, cling to it, and work the program.


If your family figures it out, fine. If not, the next Plan B you do would be with them.


I know this is harsh, but it is real. I see the fallout every day of my life, and I know where your marriage is headed if you don't exclude those who are not supporting your marriage.


They know where they can go. Just don't let them take you with them.


SB

Thank you so much for that, SB.

I wonder: how do you do it?

Do I remember correctly that you interact socially with your former abusers?

Don't you ever want to attack or feel yourself withering away when you have contact?


I no longer think of her as my sister. She is an ex. I no longer count her when I say how many brothers and sisters I have.

I have to say that my family has been pretty darn supportive, with one major exception and a handful of other stooopid comments thrown in along the way.

My struggle is that I want everyone in my family to really get it. And that's a problem I know I need to overcome because nobody else could possibly get it since they haven't personally experienced my horror.

Interestingly, two of the people who understand best what I'm going through are OWsister's SILs, who happen to be my friends.

"My struggle is that I want everyone in my family to really get it. And that's a problem I know I need to overcome because nobody else could possibly get it since they haven't personally experienced my horror."

The "horror" is that you expect everyone to have the same values as you. There is nothing wrong with your values. Nothing wrong with promoting your values. Values are a personal choice. But everyone in the end decides what values to keep. It's the price of life.

Easy to say that it's wrong to be a serial killer. Never heard of any one being for it.

Murdering unborn babies is legal and they gave it a PC name: abortion. Sadly way to many people support this value.

Thank you Schoolbus.

You have described the dynamics of an affair with a family member perfectly.

As one who walks in the same shoes as Delta it is sometimes overwhelming to not only have to fight for your M but also have to DEFEND your decisions to the very ones who should be supporting you...your family.

I was in the supermarket last night when I ran into my neice (my ex-brother's oldest daughter) and started to go up to her to wish her a Happy Thanksgiving (as I knew she would not be coming to our house) when she saw me and turned away without saying a word...

She has been recruited into supporting her father and his vendetta...

because she has been told that I am trying to "hurt her father" by having no contact with him...she has been forced into taking "sides" instead of simply understanding that no contact is the best way of dealing with the situation for ALL involved.

Delta, the thing that you and I must remember is this:

You and I will NEVER be able to EDUCATE our families into UNDERSTANDING that some things can not be repaired and all we can do is to live our lives the best we can...

and this:

The family members are not concerned with what is right and wrong...

or how much seeing your sister causes you pain...

or even what is BEST for you and your H marriage...

THEY JUST WANT WHAT IS BEST FOR THEMSELVES REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT DOES TO YOU OR YOUR MARRIAGE.

Thank you schoolbus for reminding me of that.

God bless.

Jim

For most of my kids' lives, we've spent Thanksgiving at OWsister's house, sometimes with 50+ people gathered for dinner and a ton of family staying under the same roof through the long weekend ... cousins lined up on the floor in sleeping bags watching movies, playing games, being crazy with each other.

That is the only Thanksgiving tradition my kids know.

This is year was obviously different. Apparently none of my family went to OWsister's house. And her H's sisters stayed away because they can't stand the way they've dealt with this mess.

H, kids and I stayed put and enjoyed a much quieter but very nice holiday with friends and family last night and today.

Earlier today I heard my daughter video chatting with her cousin (daughter of OWsister) ... laughing, watching old homemade movies together online. They chatted for more than an hour.

It made me sad for them, about what they've lost due to the A. I know my daughter was sad, but she didn't really let on.

I wondered what my daughter's response would be if OWsister walked in on the chat and said hello to her, so I asked her later. She said "I'd say hi I guess" but then said she should probably turn the chat off immediately. Yep.

%&*$!!!! Can you believe a 14yo girl has to deal with this? So sad.

Crazy that I have to discuss protocol with her about chatting with her cousin, her close friend, just in case her mom walks in the room.

My daughter could care less about her cousin's mother. She can't stand her for what she did and wants nothing to do with her. But she misses her cousin. She loves her cousin.

Care to offer any words of wisdom that I can share with her?

Hello Delta,

Went through the same thing with my kids talking to their cousins.

The problem I got into was this with my nephews and neices...

If they have ANY contact with their cousins (ex-brother's kids) they will hear about the conflict between you and your sister. Your sister's kids WILL defend their mother no matter how wrong she is...

because she's their mother.

The decision then is this,

Will I keep my children from their cousins to prevent contact with my sister?

Because it's a package deal.

I have lost my nephews and neices because I demanded no contact with my ex-brother and my children.

This absolutely infuriated my ex-brother who used his influence as their PARENT to form their opinions of me and the situation.

In the aftermath I have also lost my sister in law...

and now possibly my youngest son who I discovered was having undisclosed contact with my ex-brother.

My father has pretty much decided to only attend functions we specifically invite him to...He no longer invites us to his home...where there is a framed picture of my ex-brother and his family prominently positioned on the living room table. There are no pictures of me or my family.

You see, your ex-sister is NOT going to go quietly into no contact.

She is going to take as much of your family with her as she can...

and put as much of the blame on you as she can.

You are going to have to decide just how much family you are prepared to lose to enforce what you and I know is clearly right...which is no contact with ANY of your family and your ex-sister...

but the rest of the family just wants what they perceive is best for them regardless of what is right or wrong or what it does to you or your family. They WILL continue to have contact with your ex-sister and if you make it too difficult for them to do this you run the risk of them deciding to not invite YOU to family functions when there is a choice between the two of you.

You may have to readjust the parameters of no contact to mean contact with you and your H and not to mean your children as much as it goes against what I know is right. My ex-brother is an absolutely horrible excuse for a human being which you know after reading my thread...but...my children and family STILL view him as family and will CONTINUE to see him no matter how vile he is.

The choice is then up to me to decide if I want to risk being excluded from my own family to enforce no contact between my family and ex-brother or to only enforce it between myself and Mrs.Flint and my ex-brother.

God bless.

Jim

Thank you, Jim.


I will not risk losing my daughter over this, that's for sure.

She loves her cousins and wants to spend time with them. As a minor, we will guide her about ways she can spend time with them apart from their mom and apart from their house.

But in a short time, she will be an adult and will choose for herself. If I try to force NC with her aunt on her, she may become angry and bitter toward me, and rightfully so IMO.

I'm planning a meet up for all the girl cousins this summer without any of the parents. It will be at one of the adult cousin's homes, neutral territory. I want to play a role in creating opportunities for them to have quality time together in a neutral environment.

Any other suggestions?

Delta,

While I listened to the radio broadcast you shared I wondered about some of the same things you did...

What about holidays?

I went to my father and asked him to ask my ex-brother if it might be possible to alternate hosting holidays?

My ex-brother said absolutely not!!!

He KNEW Mrs.Flint and I would not attend if he was there...

So HE retained 100% of the holidays with my family and I would miss out.

Or to lose the holiday and use a different day altogether...

We then came up with the alternative solution of hosting either noon or evening...

Which required the people who were ALREADY going to two dinners because of splitting it with the other side of their marital families to try and make THREE for both my ex-brother and my family.

Sometimes we don't get to see everyone just because of the logistics of THREE get togethers for some families.

The biggest problem Mrs.Flint and I still are trying to figure out is WHAT to do about the once in a lifetime events such as weddings and funerals.

I went to the funeral of a cousins husband and it was an absolute disaster...

My ex-brother positioned himself close to my children during the funeral meal and sat as close as he could to Mrs.Flint and myself. It would, of course, be possible to JUST LEAVE however that means we suffer the loss of the fellowship with our family AGAIN just so my ex-brother can taunt us...

It's just really not possible to go at different times for weddings and funerals and I don't really feel like letting my ex-brother go to them and Mrs.Flint and I always having to decline...

Delta, Did Dr.Harley have any advice for those once in a lifetime events that you really can't miss without feeling like you are abandoning your family to maintain no contact?

If anyone has any suggestions on how to deal with those events it would be
appreciated!!!

Jim

There was a poster earlier this year who suffered a husband/sister affair who reported that SH told her that once in a lifetime events could be negotiated on a case by case basis and she COULD attend even if her sister was there. None of those events had yet occurred, though. Your extreme triggering to your brother's presence suggests that NC probably must be maintained indefinitely, and in the strictest sense.

kerala, that was me. Steve Harley told me this. His father, Dr. Willard Harley, had a different answer for me on his radio program and makes no exceptions.

Thankfully holidays will never be an issue for us. They just won't be. We have a large family living all over the country and never have everyone together at once. If I want to be with a parent or sibling for a holiday, there will always be someone available who isn't celebrating with OWsister.

I really do think my family members will rotate invitations to their kids' weddings. Time will tell, but I think they'll be respectful to me for these. I could be wrong ...

Funerals can't be rotated the same way; there's only one chance to memorialize a loved one, so I'll either need to be in OWsister's presence or miss out. I don't fret these at all though. I will have family and friends watching out for me and making sure she stays away from me and my kids.

Thanks kerala,

If my father was more on board with doing WHAT IS RIGHT instead of always trying to avoid making my ex-brother upset or thinking that he will be able to "outlast" no contact and put the "family back together" we would have a workable solution because he could mediate the funerals and weddings and formulate a plan.

We suggested to him that he inform my ex-brother that one family could attend the wedding itself and the other the reception by giving them a call when the ceremony was concluded. A similar routine for the funerals by having one family attend the service and the other the funeral meal. It would allow ALL to be there to greet the family and yet maintain no contact.

The problem is my father.

He wants to hold onto the hope that in time "through forgiveness" that there will once again be an intact family. He WILL NOT participate in anything other than putting the family back together. He does not understand the idea of permanent no contact even though we have shared REAMS of MB information. He just doesn't want to participate.

It may be possible to enlist ANOTHER family member however my father is the only one who probably could do it and not become a target for my ex-brother revenge.

Jim

I'm sorry about that Jim. I'm sorry that he doesn't get it.

Delta,

Hopefully that will work for you.

It worked the other way for us...

The family LIKED seeing my ex-brother close to us. To them it meant "isn't it nice to see them together in one place" and "maybe they are working things out" and NO ONE kept him away from us.

They would'nt have DREAMED of interfering with "us working it out" by helping to keep him away from us.

Your right about your daughter making her own choices because as soon as my youngest son turned eighteen he was in contact with his uncle...

and they had been working on him for years.

My ex-brother looked it as "winning" to get him back as family.

So will your ex-sister...

I STILL have not seen ONE member of my family stand up to my ex-brother and call him on what he did to the family.

Not one.

Because they ALL want the family back together again.

Because they don't want to "make anyone mad" or "cause a scene".

Hopefully your ex-sister will not be as vindictive as my ex-brother. But I'm afraid the accusations of your "abuse" are only the start from her as mine was years ago.

I spent a lot of time trying to get my family to confront my ex-brother about what he had done to our family.

Mrs.Flint asked why he gets off scot-free and we are being punished by the family.

I don't know the answer.

I think part of it is in what schoobus said,

They just want what is easist and best for THEMSELVES and they really don't care who is right or wrong...

They just want the family back together.

Oops, sorry Delta! I didn't recognize you...

Hello,

I'm afraid this might be a thread-jack and I probably should start another thread but I am interested in the issues raised here even if my situation is not the same because I am not in recovery.

I went to Plan B just over 2 years ago. WH is still with OW, living not far away. We have a sort of shared custody where the children (4 girls aged almost 13 to 6) spend 1 week with him and 2 weeks with me.

I feel unable to have contact with either WH or OW because it is such a trigger for me. So far all communication is by email or text and I only communicate purely logistical information about the children. He tries to have contact with me and enlists people to plead for us to 'get on for the sake of the kids' but I ignore all these messages. I have come under huge pressure to do so from all kinds of people but it is beyond me. Strangely enough the children understand and never pressure me. I think we have an unspoken agreement; that I will respect their right to have a relationship with their father and they will respect my right to not have one. That being said, their relationship with him is disintegrating and it's hard for me to see their pain.

I just wanted to hear what you have to say about maintaining NC with WH when people think you are being unreasonable.

No contact should be maintained whether people believe you are being "unreasonable" or not. Many people are extremely ignorant about the effects of adultery and their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

Either have NC or C. Making excuses only weakens your position in front of family members and allowing exceptions allows your B/OM to only put the screws to you by being on top of you or your kids. Makeing exceptions also say's daddy say's NC but daddy breaks NC.

Actions speak louder then words. Allowing lapses in NC gives the relatives ammunition that they are right not to believe in NC. That your lapses shows they are wearing you down and they will get you to give up NC.

Hello TheRoad,

I hear what you are saying about contact or no contact.

It causes pain and damages me and my family.

The question is which is worse with THE TWO SITUATIONS OF WEDDINGS AND FUNERALS.

There are certain things I have and would subject myself to intense pain for...

I would physically defend my family in a fight and have done so...

I would suffer surgery for a family member to donate an organ...

I have suffered intense emotional and physical pain to save my marriage and keep my children and the love of my life in an intact home.

There ARE things I would suffer physical and emotional pain for...

Honoring innocent family members at the end of their life and honoring family members at the beginning of their lives at their weddings is something I am willing to endure the pain of contact for. Mrs.Flint will NOT attend but I will be carrying her condolences and for the weddings her best wishes.

That eliminates entirely the question of her contact rekindling the affair.

I am man enough to endure the pain of contact for my innocent family members and not let a jacka$$ ruin the celebration of their life or the start of their new one.

Jim

Weddings aren't necessary to attend. There won't be any harm done by missing a wedding. you and your family can graciously decline, send a lovely gift. After the nuptials have taken place, you can always meet with the newlyweds, pour over the picture album and watch the dvd of their special day, followed by a celebration with you in their honor (ie dinner at a fancy restaurant or another venue).

Funerals of loved ones are vital and necessary, esp in situations of an untimely, unexpected death. If you've been able to say "good bye" b4 the loved one passes, then the funeral isn't as necessary to attend.

but, oh boy, to miss the funeral of a near, dear loved one or friend whose death was sudden and unexpected...it leaves you open to emotional issues because of a lack of closure. been there, done that and in my situation it left me with PTSD.

For funerals, make sure you go. Take a few moments to attend some aspect of of the grieving ritual, whether it be the viewing or the funeral. But get the closure. Focus on you and what you need to process your loved one's passing. Those few moments of paying final respects can make all the difference in the various stages of healing and grief . jmo

DDD,

It's so difficult when its family because NC goes against the grain of what family is. That's why an A with a familial OP is horrific and so difficult to get past. The NC within the family setting becomes a reminder of the A. People aren't together because two members of the clan decided to cheat.

Families would rather the real victim shut up and put up in order to maintain the semblance of a unified family. Because by doing so, it keeps the next generation from also being victimized from the families POV.

With the young people that are getting M, they had no part of the A. But now they have to face the decision of which aunt to invite. From their perspectives, the moment they chose 1 aunt over the other, it will cause pain. Even if both aunts understand, it still seems like they are rejecting the cousins by the aunt who isn't invited. And unfortunately, the uncle who isn't even blood who was also an offender, is expected to be welcomed if they chose to invite their betrayed aunt. From their perspective, he is as much a betrayer as the OW/aunt.

(Btw, not saying I condone their perspective.) When I wrote to you back in April, this situation was something I tried to convey to you. It's just painful all the way around.)

In the name of recovery, you and your FWH might have to miss family events because relatives are not going to feel comfortable with deciding who will/will not get an invite. They'd rather leave up to the couples with the A issue to decide. (not saying I agree with their choice...just that it's human nature for relatives to react this way)

, , and more

NC is for both the WS and the BS

Did you think about how your WW feels being left home when you go?

She's the one getting punished 100% of the time and you only get punished when it suits you.

You don't have to go to any weddings. (hell they say 50% marriages end in divorce anyway ). You send a gift and re expose your B/OM and the need for NC.

You have to go to a funeral?

The only funeral you have to go to is yours. You can ask the F palor if you can slip in 1/2 hour before public viewing or after.

Cemetary?

Why can't you go after every one leaves there?

Is it that you have to be seen there at these events?

Whats more important getting your igo stroked or maintaining NC?

I didn't think it was MB policy to regard NC as "punishment". This entire little rant from road seem un-MB (maybe he has some problems with his, um, "igo". Snerk.)

Very nice. And it allows me to leave my much less-complimentary thoughts unsaid. Good job.

tl

NC is for protection, protection for both the BS and the WS.

It is out of love, care and protection for the marriage that a couple commits to NC.



For me personally, I would not feel protected being around OWsister at a celebratory event like a wedding - even one where H and I kept a distance from her - because the way she celebrates has already irritated me for years and would trigger a flood of emotions about her lack of boundaries, over the top flirtation with others, her lack of respect and true contrition toward me, her thoughts that what she did is not a big deal and is all in the past, etc. A couple sisters and friends told me they could picture her being so uncomfortable in our presence yet wanting to "show us" that she'd act out even more with her laughing and dancing and carrying on rather than humbly stepping back and acting decent. But, of course, a couple of them wouldn't take her to task for this behavior because after all, "she's hurting too." I would be so royally saddened and pissed during and after the event and would be so anxious beforehand that it would be of no benefit to me to attend in her presence.

IMO, a funeral is much different.

I don't attend funerals to "be seen." I go to honor someone's life and reflect as a group about how that life touched us. There are prayers and heart touching speeches and photos and videos and stories and hugs and support.

Four days after learning about H's affair with OWsister, I attended my father's funeral. I had already told her I had no desire to ever speak to her again. But there was no way I was going to miss that funeral. I wouldn't miss my other family members' funerals either.

Road,

Hope you didn't hurt yourself doodling emoticons all over your childish rant...

In case you haven't been told the design by Dr.Harley of this forum is to HELP people solve problems in their marriage not to attempt to set yourself up as someone who plainly has all the answers which you clearly do not.

You were called to task on my very first thread by the veterans and you are still clearly not listening to MB philosophy which takes into consideration the WHOLE situation not grasping at this concept and that concept and ignoring the whole MB plan.

If you had been paying attention you would have seen the post by Delta stating that even the Harleys are split on how to deal with this particular situation of the OP being a family member.

Steve Harley stated to Delta that it should be dealt with ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS with the OP being a family member.

In my case I am blessed with a recovered M and a spouse who is fully on board with MB and who, herself, suggested that I go with her blessing to these once in a lifetime events.

By the way, Mrs.Flint DID NOT appreciate being labeled a WW in your rant...

Road, Mrs.Flint and I along with the Wonderings and most of MB would absolutely LOVE to hear YOUR story when you get a moment to share your credentials...

Jim

DDD,

To answer your question about my contact with the abusers:


My father was physically and emotionally abusive. Had things gone differently, he would have been in jail at one point for felony abuse of a child, because he beat me relentlessly, and tried to hit me with a chair. I was 11.

I was also molested/raped by a very near relative over the course of several years.



I have contact with the relative, yes, but not that he nor I initiate. We are separated but able to be in the same room, only because my family does not know what happened. I chose not to expose this, for many reasons - first and foremost as a child I was afraid to expose for fear my father would kill me...or the abuser. It was a possibility, and not one that was a "slim" possibility either, given my dad's mental condition.

The abuser and I are on the planet. I accept that he lives, but see very much that his deeds haunt him and his entire life. He began taking drugs, and drinking pretty heavily. This has taken a toll on him, and there was one comment over the many years that tells me of his guilty feelings and remorse. He now abuses himself by drinking himself into a pitiful stupor as often as he can.

How do I face him? I RELEASED HIM from my life - because I was able to understand exactly how broken and sick this man is. In seeing his brokenness

and comparing his being and countenance

to where I am in the world

I understand he is deserving of my PITY, and not my fear. He holds no power over me because I released him from myself.

I did this through deep understanding of his weakness and brokenness, and thus seeing my strength over him

and all that happened.

By releasing him, I no longer defined my life as "what happened with so-and-so". My life has FAR more meaning that what a criminal perpetrated on me - and I understood and realized that with each day that I allowed his crime to define me

HE WON.

I chose to win, instead. I beat him, only because I saw that he had no power whatsoever. He. Is. Meaningless.


Because he is meaningless, I actually feel NOTHING when he is in the same room with me (as infrequently as this occurs). He is as much as furniture there. I am that neutral. Truly.

Regarding my dad....almost the same thing....except: MY DAD APOLOGIZED, SOUGHT HELP, AND SOUGHT TO REPAIR THE RELATIONSHIP. And over the course of many years

he has succeeded.

At the time of the abuse, my father was not in a normal mental state. Because he sought treatment, he has progressed quite far. A different man stands before me today, and this man is one who understands the depths of his abuse, and regrets it.




I'm not special. I just found the road to forgiveness that really works for me.


However,

it is difficult with my sister, because she stands before the world and shouts, "I didn't do anything wrong."


That, is hard to forgive, indeed.

Then again, how much more broken can a person get?


SB

In your situation, it is too hard to have contact.


My niece has lost friends, and many relatives criticize her behavior.


I told her to do what she needed to do, which meant no contact.


DDD,

FWIW, you will come to a point where people are telling you that YOU need to do something, "for the sake of the family".


Don't do anything for the sake of a family who cannot stand up for what is right and what is wrong. The value of your own marriage and the children in it is far more important than trying to make everyone "happy".

You can't anyway. Even if you have contact with your sister, and you sacrifice the entire NC for the sake of the family, it won't ever be right anyway.

Because

Your sister will then receive tacit approval from everyone else
and anything you do that might remotely appear negative will be gossiped about, blown out of proportion, and you will be blamed for being "unforgiving".


It won't matter. In the end, it all comes out the same way - some will be on your "side", others will be on hers, and everyone will be saying

"Yeah, she slept with your husband, BUT how long are you going to be acting mad? YOU need to get over it, and let us have a family again. It is DDD's fault that things are this way."


And it won't even matter if you have contact or not.

So, just don't!!! It is easier to stay away, than to try to mend this fence. I say this because it is true in my family, in my life.


Delta, I stayed away from my family for over 15 years because of the garbage I escaped - and it took that long for my father to figure out I was angry and hurt.




Not to mention my brother's attempted suicide over the abuse.




15 years.




I found peace there, in those years. I found a way to live my life


without caring what the "family" wanted.


In the long run, I am the strongest one - and I survived better than the rest.




Consider NO Contact for life, and then, maybe, in 15 years or so, somebody in your family will own the truth.......

that what happened was WRONG
and your sister is to blame in the mess.


Trust me. Over time, people do get the perspective they need. They figure it out.


WAIT THEM OUT.


After all, you have a marriage and a life to live, and you don't need to do it with people throwing bombs into it.


Find your peace. without them.


SB

It doesn't matter what has happened in the family, be it happy or tragic, NC can always be maintained.

Anything else is just making excuses.

"By the way, Mrs.Flint DID NOT appreciate being labeled a WW in your rant..."

Why?

Do I have your story wrong?

Did you sleep with your brother?

She slept with your brother. Though you are saying I don't know nothin' about MB.

Mabye I always thought when one has had an affair they were the Wayward spouse?

You don't need to go to a wedding. And wouldn't go if you lived in NY and the wedding was in LA and didn't have the money to go. You'd send a gift.

You don't need to go to the wake and been seen grieving by anyone. You can explain your story to the funeral director asking go to the wake before or after hours.

You don't need to be there at the funeral. You can go after the funeral is over AFTER every one has left the cemetary.



Dr Harley does not say you have attend these functions.

Dr Harley does say that there must be NC forever for both spouses.

I guess you pick and chose the MB parts that suit you and ignore what you don't like.


Except you offer fogged up responses to justify your breaking NC the way a WS is fogged up when they need to see OM for closure and or the affair is over but I don't want to lose such a good friend so the OM has to stay in our lives.


It's wrong to attend these events alone while WW has to sit home alone.

Road,

Mrs.Flint is a FWW not a WW.

Steve Harley who I believe is part of MB and has counseled thousands of people stated that it should be a case by case basis when the OP is a family member. I believe I already stated that bit of information for you.

I have a recovered M and a spouse who WANTS me to not miss out on once in a lifetime events. She states that it seems like my ex-brother is controlling our lives and is some aspects she is correct.

Mrs.Flint will NEVER have contact.

The only contact I will ever have will be when absolutely necessary for legal and medical decisions and the once in a lifetime events I already have mentioned.

I will not have give up my fathers funeral, visiting him in the hospital or the reading of his will and my inheritance because jacka$$ might be there.

I will not give up my rights as a human being to EXIST just because my ex-brother may or may not be somewhere. There IS a line beyond which no contact becomes impossible for the non-affair partner when the OP is a relative who you have given the ability to force you away from everything that makes up a life.

For me, he no longer exists...

I am a man and WILL NOT be bullied by him into losing everything that is of value in my life by his threatening to be here or there.

I have the strength of will and character to avoid him like I would any other toxic substance. If I feel I am too close to the problem I know how to distance myself.

I have undergone enough pain in my life that I do not need to add more to it by losing additional family members through avoiding THEM by avoiding contact with my ex-brother. What people that have not personally gone through this situation when the OP is a family member do not understand is this:

FAMILY MEMBERS DO NOT CARE WHY YOU ARE NOT ATTENDING THEIR ONCE IN A LIFETIME EVENT, THEY FEEL YOU DO NOT CARE ENOUGH ABOUT THEM OR THEIR FAMILY TO COME!!!

I am FOUR years into this and can tell anyone new how it turns out if you avoid once in a lifetime events of family to avoid the OP. I agree the affair partner should NEVER have ANY contact however if you are not the affair partner your family WILL RESENT THE HELL OUT OF YOU FOR NOT BEING THERE!!!

I have answered your questions now why don't you answer mine and every other person on MB and give us YOUR story to open up your life to scrutiny. You have attempted to bully every other person who has come here for help and received your unqualified "advice" which has been called into question on a regular basis.

You have mocked and ridiculed people who have opened their hearts up here and undergone tremendous pain to try to receive help and set yourself up as someone qualified to give advice however you are afraid to tell us your story...

You have refused every inquiry into your history...

WHY ARE YOU SO RELUCTANT TO SHARE YOUR STORY WITH EVERYONE???

Jim

having to go and want to go are not the same

if your WW is not going you should be at her side during those times

Umm, he has a posting history, you can take a peek at his first thread starter, for starts.

CWMI,

Thank you. Where and what date is his thread located at that describes his marital history? Several of us have been looking and unable to find it. He has not wanted to provide a reference to it despite being asked several times.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=149515&Number=2033284#Post2033284

Whenever you want to know if someone has told a story, click on their name, then 'view posts', then 'threads created', and go all the way back to the first one.

Neak's post about no contact is dead-on right.

"It doesn't matter what has happened in the family, be it happy or tragic, NC can always be maintained.

Anything else is just making excuses."


Unless you have experienced this within a family, the dynamics are hard to understand, much less explain.


My sister (the one who slept with her son-in-law) also hit on my husband and on another son-in-law as well. I have no problem being no-contact with her.


The issue becomes the REST of the family. They are doggedly determined that everyone will "let it go" for the "sake of the family". I've seen it over and over.


The truth is that you can maintain no contact - because YOU are in control of YOU.

Nobody can "Make" you go to a wedding, a funeral, or anywhere else. The choice is yours.


So, what does our family do?


Most of the rest of the family WANTS the victim to attend, regardless. She tries to do what she can, but the fact is that she cannot tolerate her mom for very long.


The BS in my family's case has essentially isolated herself from these gatherings and from the mother.

She has attempted many times to try to "get over it" at the behest of the others. It does NOT work.


So, if there is a wedding, and she knows the mom will be there, she might go, and she might not. It is up to her, and her mood at the time. She makes NO excuses to anyone, and says right out loud:

"I can't go. My mom will be there and right now I just hate her."


Does anyone want to go up against that? Nope. And so far it has worked out.


Since enough time has now passed, the rest of the family is actually

ACCEPTING

the situation, and furthermore, they are better able to RESPECT the BS's feelings.


In other words..............

The BS calls the shots with regard to the "reconciliation"

and "events".

And if the BS holds their ground - and doesn't waver - ultimately the rest of the family will figure it out.


DDD, and Jim,

Just hang in there. YOU decide. You draw the lines. You force the family to accept YOUR terms, because Neak is right.

It is your choice.


No excuses - just give them legitimate backup for any decision you make. Be up front, and straight to the facts about why you will not attend. Tell them that these gatherings "might" be attended, depending on your emotional status on THAT DAY.

My niece has actually succeeded in keeping her mom away from stuff, just by keeping in hanging in the air about whether or not she will attend........the mom gives up and just doesn't go!


As for the WS and OP in the situation


NO CONTACT.



I would strongly advise that the BS have no contact with the OP for as long as humanly possible.



As for weddings? Tell the happy couple that you are "working through" the devastation of the affair, and that you would like to attend, but ask that they respect your attempt to maintain your intact marriage. Then, tell them that the gift you are giving them is His Needs/Her Needs, so that they can build a stronger relationship and hopefully avoid this same devastation in THEIR marriage.

And don't go if the OP is there. The couple will understand.


As for funerals: You can always go to the visitation instead, or to the mass the night before. Visitations are come-and-go, so if you see the OP car there, you can just wait it out.



This isn't as easy as a "regular" affair. The family can be relentless.

SB

I am so glad for Neak and Schoolbus's posts. It goes along with what I was saying.

I also have this feeling that DDD is getting dragged into the drama of the wayward OWsis by feeling the need to defend yourself. You know that you did nothing wrong. You know that you continue to do things right. NC is for YOU and it is the best way to recover your marriage. You know it, it is your choice and you have confidence in it. Things is, you don't need to convince anyone else of that fact. It is your choice and you need to be confident in that choice and exude that confidence.

I see a lot of trying to get everyone else on "your" side. Don't get into that. As always, you can only control what you do. You also can only control what you believe. Remember, MB works in all relationships.

Which is why NC is even MORE important when family is involved. The hurt is deeper. The betrayal is deeper.

The OP is not the one "controlling" the changed, limited life of the couple who is trying to R from in-family infidelity - the WS did that already with their own evil choices.

The effects of some choices just cannot be undone, nor should it be attempted.

Me too.


We don't need to convince but we do still need to explain NC in writing to my family. They can't understand what they don't know. And they need to know that NC is a non-negotiable pre-requisite to healing that has nothing to do with anyone's level of forgiveness.

At the right time, H will send something out. They will understand or not. Some will, some won't. Thank you all for your feedback about what to include and exclude in that letter; that's been helpful.

NC is not debatable with my family. We will not have that debate. That would be silly and would weaken our position. All we can do is state our position, and they will support us or not. That's it.


Yes, I think it's a natural, gut reaction to want to defend yourself when someone's calling you an abuser and a controller, especially when you've been the victim of abuse and control for 9 years. (I wan't to scream "Doesn't anyone SEEEE that? Doesn't anyone see how she's trying to twist and manipulate the whole thing?")

But I have not responded.

I'm learning. A work in progress.

DDD,

I've re-read your thread. Are you still struggling with how to have handle family events the OWsis is also invited to?

Way back in April, I wrote this to you:
"However, you're going to have to do some major soul searching with regards to the family issue and what you expect from a spouse. We don't expect our spouses to cheat. Unfortunately,it happens. Fortunately, the affair can stop, the wayward spouse can become a F(former)WS,and the M reconciled without the affair remaining in the background. There is closure to the A.

But with family AP's,there isn't closure. It's like it gets tabled. The BS has to compartmentalize because we don't have our spouse with us at family events and we know why. :**( Makes it difficult to permanently heal because it's painful...like a very tender scar.

If not having his support during family funerals/illness or not having him at your side to share in joyful events like weddings, new babies,birthdays, baptisms,reunions, etc is absolutely unacceptable to you,then don't waste another day, get a D. I say this so bluntly because if this is a deal breaker for you,you won't be able to recover your marriage."


Your reply was:
"It is a deal breaker for me.
So is that it? In your opinion, divorce is our only solution?"

You've come along way since then, but that fundamental issue is one that you are still facing today. There has to be permanent NC between FWH and OWsis. Are you at the point in R where your husband's absence at family events that you feel you must absolutely attend is no longer a deal breaker?

I empathize with you regarding your sister. But to move forward, you'll have to determine a few things. Does having to miss certain family events or going to family events alone close the love bank? Just having to make this choice can make the M irreconcilable for some BS. Also, if you choose to go to the family events, will having C with OW close the love bank?

Neak and SB have eloquently written the challenges of R with a familial AP. They are spot-on.

In my perspective, it seems that BW with familial AP's are less likely to make permanent NC with family. Instead, there is a juggle to remain connected with our families. In an ideal world, BW should be able to walk away from their kin. But that is a lot to ask. Women's lives, even in this society where we have more independence than other cultures, are about family. To totally disconnect from our families which by society's standard, is our first means of support, to reconcile a relationship with a man who betrayed us in the most horrible way, seems counter intuitive. It feels like it leaves us on our own, w/o support. (And is some cases it does)

I think that some people in your family believe you want them to take sides. (not saying that you are) From their perspective, the A was along time ago, and "nothing" happened since, so you may appear hyper vigilant to them . They don't understand EP.

But like Neak and SB said, you are in control of you. If you want any chance of your M making it out alive, you will have to figure out what works for you in handling family scenarios and then set the boundaries with your family.

It will mean that there is NC between OWsis and FWH, with no more explanations for it to those who know the situation. Explanations to those that already know suggest that you aren't at peace with your decision and therefore your position is negotiable. Place in your mind that with family members who won't respect NC, it's their problem.

With OWsis, only you can determine if seeing her sets your M back. In the short run, it's probably best that you have NC with her until you can determine if C closes the love bank or puts it in the red. (Although I feel that if there's a death, still be a part of the grief process -funeral/viewing-even if avoiding her is impossible.) Anything else, strict NC for a good while sends the message to her and family that you are serious about your stance. Permanent NC between BS and AP would be ideal, but with family, it's impractical at times.

If you can take the next year, place family events aside and focus rebuilding your M, then you will be in the best position of strength in future dealings with family. Family members will respect your boundaries and be more likely to accommodate them if they want you to be a part of their lives. imho

Regardless of whether I remain married to my current H, am single or am married to another man, I would still maintain NC with my ex-S.

I would still face the same issues regarding family events either which way. NC is not tied to forgiveness, and it is also not tied to my marital status.

H and I are together. We plan to remain together. We will face the future together and deal with the highs and lows. Together.

We will attend events together and will only attend events where ex-S is not present (with the possible exception of funerals ... still need to discuss this with each other and with SH).


Thankfully, I have not and don't foresee having to totally disconnect from my family. Far from it. They have invited us on vacation and have invited us to spend other time with them. They call us. With the exception of one sister, they have been very, very supportive.

I have been discussing hypotheticals on this forum the same way I did with Dr. H ... how to deal with this or that situation that might come up in the future, such as a niece's wedding. It helps to be proactive and think through how to best handle possible scenarios before they actually occur.

So nobody in my family thinks I'm asking them to take sides because there hasn't been an event ... yet. I'm figuring out how to best approach or respond to potential future scenarios so that we do it most effectively.

I do appreciate all the insight from many of you. It helps.


A flash of good news:
Turns out none of this probably needs to be addressed for a couple years -- if at all -- because the niece who's getting married in the spring is likely going with a very small wedding on the beach with immediate family only (sister's family) and a couple close friends.

"NC is not tied to forgiveness, and it is also not tied to my marital status"



Truer words have not been spoken.



Remember this for your own sanity, DDD. I have tried so hard to explain this to my niece, but unfortunately the family dynamics in her life are just too bizarre to explain.

So she caves in.


Hang on to your values. Those of any worth will stand by you.

The others know where they can go.


SB

For the first several years, you are so devastated that, even if you saw your sis, the damage it did would probably feel lost in the greater hurt. When your guts are hanging out, you probably won't notice that you stepped on a nail.

But once your guts are put back together and heal, stepping on a nail (especially over and over again) will not only hurt dreadfully, but the risk of infection is very high.

No BS can judge from their early R feelings, whether the BS having contact with OP will be damaging. BUT a wise BS will take the word of the many BS who have gone before, and realize that NC is not only essential for the FWS, but the BS as well.

Complete healing will only occur when both parties have NC, and good for you for making that stand early on!

A discussion in another thread about establishing boundaries and extraordinary precautions made me think of some things my H did right after his A.

Of course, he did something majorly wrong, as Dr. Harley explains here:


My H should have been honest with me and told me about his A.

But I look back and see that he did establish new boundaries following his A.

- He no longer went to lunch with any of the ladies in his office, not even with other guys from the office, unless it was for a special office-wide lunch like Secretary's Day. I didn't see anything wrong with him having lunch with them (especially since they're older ladies) and would tell him I thought his position was silly. He said it didn't matter; he didn't think it was appropriate for a married man to dine with other women.

- My friend reminded me of a few times when we were around OWsister and my husband would say something like "I'm running up to the store. Does anyone need anything?" and OWsister would say "I'll go with you," but then H would say "you can go ahead, and I'll stay here."

- Sometimes when we were out with friends, I'd want to call it a night before he would, so I'd tell him to stay out without me. I really didn't mind, and I'd try to encourage him to stay out and enjoy himself. But he wouldn't. He'd always come home with me.

These are a few examples I can look back on and know that he was sincere about changing his ways/true repentance following his A.

He didn't do everything right, of course, because he allowed me to stay in contact with OWsister.

But these boundaries he established, tangible evidence I can look back on, made me more apt to accept his apology and know in my heart his sorrow was sincere. He proved it to me, and I never had to ask for it.

Something for wayward spouses to think about.

You are pretty observant. Your WH wanted to cut his ties, and cut his losses.

OWSister wanted MORE. And your WH knew it. Sounds like he made things clear to her that he was done, but she worked to keep him sniffing around, hoping she could keep him ensnared.



I think it's good that you see this. He was trying back then to fix things - in the wrong way - but at least trying.


His instinct was to escape her.


And cling to you. And not put himself in that position anymore.



That is a start, even though you didn't get the honesty or confession at the time.



I want to just smack your Xsister, FWIW. Whenever I encounter this type of affair, it just gets me angry.

Yep. I do get mad every now and then. Mostly at stuff like this.


And not getting enough ice cream. I get mad about that, too.


Hang in there, DDD. You have lots going in your favor.


SB

I just emailed the following letter to MB Radio and will wait to hear back, but I'm hopeful some of you have words of wisdom, too.


As I wrote this it dawned on me that there may be a good book someone could suggest for children of divorce ... effective ways to process the pain and anger.

Anyone?

Surprised that I haven't gotten any responses.

Haven't any of your kids, especially teenage or adult children, struggled with healing from their mom or dad's affair?

Please let me know if I should post this in a different section of the forum.

Joyce emailed me to say they're answering my letter on today's MB Radio program.

I'd like to remind everyone here about what a tremendous gift MB Radio is.

At no cost, you can email your question or concern to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com, and Dr. Harley and his wife, Joyce, will address your issue on air. Then you can follow up with Joyce and Dr. Harley through email afterward.

I've done this a couple times, most recently in regard to my daughter's continued resentment about her dad's A. (letter above)

Dr. Harley addressed the issue on air, followed up with an email exchange, offered to speak to our daughter privately, and then spoke to my H and I afterward. This has helped a great deal, and our daughter will continue to speak to Dr. Harley on the phone to hopefully help her work out some things.

I'm so very grateful for this entire organization!

DrH, Mrs H and MB are AMAZING. This is great to hear Delta. I am so happy for you.

This is a great reminder - thanks, Delta!

I wish there was an app for computers that automatically starts the Radio Show every day...

Notable post.
Very, very important.
~Pep~

Regarding our daughter's resentment about her dad's A, some people may use this as an example of why children should not be told about their parent's A.

Wrong.

Both our teenagers have thanked us for caring enough about them to speak honestly and openly about reality. It's their reality, too.

Your sister is a REAL piece of work. Your family defending her is expected. Personally, I'd disown my brother/sister if she betrayed me or our other siblings in this way. Blood doesn't do this to each other!

Delta,
It has taken me all week to read your entire thread. There were many times in my reading that I wanted to respond but didn't because it was an older post and has already been responded to.

I do, however, want to tell you how wonderfully I think you have dealt with all of this. You have been amazing, taking the upper road, your attitude is A+.

I have a multifaceted perspective to family affairs because...
When I was about five years old my mom told my older sisters they had to take me with them when they went downtown or they couldn't go...they did not want to take their younger sister so that started things off on the wrong foot to start with. They were six, eight, and ten years older than me. I was being a brat, pestering them and all of a sudden they erupted into: "You're not even our sister! Our mother married your dad so we have different fathers (our fathers are brothers)..." I can't remember what all they said except they also told me that their grandmother (whom I'd never seen even though she lived in the same town) used to take them for a week or two in the summer until I came along and then there was no more contact with the extended family.

This led to my feeling it was all MY fault, being as it all happened when I came along.

I came home and threw it all out there at my mom, expecting her to tell my sisters, "Oh why would you girls tell her such a thing!" Instead she was kind of like, "Yeah? Well?" I was shocked. It was a turning point in my life. My uncle (their dad) used to come visit on Sundays, but he really didn't spend time with my sisters, instead he had coffee with my dad for an hour or two. My dad raised and paid for all of us.

For most of my life, my sisters have always been my sisters with no differentiation between us. They were naturally closer because they were closer in age and shared a large bedroom. I used to feel left out because they had matching windows, matching closets, matching beds, everything, lined up like the three bears. I learned years later that they felt a little jealous of me because I had a room to myself.
Today my sisters and I are extremely close. We are all different, married different, different religious choices and political views. None of that gets in the way of our relationship. My parents had another child and eventually adopted another...my oldest sister's son (she was critically injured in a car accident so couldn't raise him herself).

All of that is just background for this:
When I was growing up, we were never invited to any family get togethers. We attended no holiday functions, no funerals or weddings, nothing. I did not know my cousin until I met her in high school. I did not know my grandmother until I was grown and lived nearby...then I used to stop in and see her once in a while. But I grew up without extended family. We were pretty much shunned on my mom's side as well, seeing family only on rare occasions. I knew and felt my family was "not normal". I can't describe the isolation that is felt when you have a family that wants nothing to do with you because of your parent's sins. Alas but parent's sins are visited on the youth, the Bible even says so...and I believe the Bible is just stating it matter of factly, that kids do pay the consequences of their parents' wrongs.

There is no escaping the boomerang effects that sin has even years down the road, even on innocent parties. I often wish us kids could have been included in some things to some extent, but that wasn't the case.

When my sisters' dad (my uncle) passed away, they were not notified or even invited to his funeral. I can't tell you how angry that makes me! They visited him in his nursing home, bought him glasses, even though he'd never been there for them, never attended their weddings or made much attempt to be in their lives. How the family handled this was wrong. If anyone should have been ostracized it should have been my mom. She not only had an affair with my dad while married to his brother (resulting in me) but we learned years later that she'd had at least one other affair (perhaps resulting in my oldest sister).

Today my mother is certifiably nuts. She is guilt ridden and paranoid. I'm not suggesting her sin drove her crazy, but who knows how much part it played in her mental outcome. She is 89 and never been happy. None of us enjoy her company and only call her or see her because...why? I don't know, she's our mother. Not a good mother. But what we got stuck with. She's old and we're trying to be there for her as much as we can tolerate until the day she dies...but there is no relationship, not really, she doesn't really know any of us. She is a sad pathetic old person who is living out the consequences of her youth. And my father has been dead for 29 years now. My uncle, he's been gone for years too. None of them play a huge role in our lives, but my sisters and I and my brother? We love each other and are close. We will always have a strong bond.

I find what your sister did to you and your family to be deplorable. I wish your husband could have seen the consequences before he acted but alas, so many who stray think "what they don't know won't hurt them"...or they just don't even think at all.

You are recovering your marriage. I do think it possible for the cousins to remain in contact at neutral places so long as they agree not to discuss parents. I think your sisters also need to not bring up your Xsis to you. I agree with the NC, as painful as it is, as hard as it is. I am the living result of the effects NC has had on me growing up and I wish there could have been something easier on us kids, but it is what it is. At least us kids are close.

It's been a long time since I've posted, so I wanted to check in. Life is really good.

I previously had a lot of anxiety about how we'd keep NC when there were family weddings and funerals. Well, we had our first family wedding recently, and I attended with my daughter. My husband and son stayed home and so did my exS/OW and her husband and son. She was basically strong armed into not attending by other family members. She has blubbered on and on to them about how she'll never get to attend family functions, and a couple of our sisters have simply told her that she should have thought about that sooner and these are the consequences of her actions.

Her daughter attended the wedding, and that was fine and comfortable because she is respectful to me. Our daughter remains very close with their daughter; they don't discuss their parents or the A. It's so great that they could spend this special three days with each other and their other cousins.

I'm here to tell you that if we can maintain NC within our family, anyone can maintain NC. It will be tricky when it comes time for a funeral, but there's simply no benefit for us to be in her presence and it's simply not worth it. In the past year, exS/OW has tried texting me, doing a couple weird things on social media to reach out to me, given family members big guilt trips when they've chosen to spend time with us and just recently "liked" and commented on a bunch of photos of our daughter from the wedding. Even though we're blocked from seeing any of that, family members jumped in to tell her to back off. Nope, we definitely don't need her headaches and craziness and pushiness in our lives for any reason.

My husband and I are truly doing wonderfully following MB principles! And our daughter is back to laughing with, caring about, respecting and spending quality time with her dad. Things are really, really good. I have a happy family.

Thanks for the update, Delta!! I am so happy for you. Dr Harley mentioned your case last week on the radio. He was saying how it doesn't matter what the relationship is to the affair partner, no contact must be observed. He added that even you were able to do this even though it is very difficult.

Thank you so much for the update Delta. We have a poster where the DD17 is still very angry with her Wayward mom and I link your story.

Thank you for being a MB example (not that you would've preferred to be a different example).

I am so very thankful that this need I had to defend myself is long gone. It was a battle within myself, and it's over.

Really? I'd love to listen if you happen to have a link.

You know, I can't remember what day. Basically he was explaining that no contact is essential and that "we even have a case where a woman's sister had an affair with her husband. This couple maintains no contact even though it is within the family." The gist of his comment was that if you can do it, then others can too.

Is she still posting? I think it would be great if there was an area on this board for children to discuss their emotions and strategies in dealing with an affair. My daughter really could have used it.

The best thing that happened for my daughter was when Dr. Harley gave her permission to be angry ... furious ... with her dad for cheating on me and us. He told her she had the right to never speak to him again if she didn't want to.

Putting expectations on others to forgive can really do so much harm.

She isn't but her BH is and maybe he will pass on your excellent advice.

Here's his thread KGaa12's thread

They were both on the show and they are planning to move away from OM.

bump

I thought this was a good place for this show. The WH had a 5 year affair with the BW's sister.

Radio Clip of a WH Having a 5 Year Affair with the BW's Sister
Segment #2
Segment #3