"What does letting him off lightly mean? In your opinion, should I be mean to him or refuse to speak to him or act pissy toward him for a long time? <-- honest question"

Letting him off lightly would be moving on and saying the marriage is reconciled without insisting that he work on his issues that allowed him to cross the line with your sister, pretend all was normal, and deceive you in the short and long term.

I personally don't believe that acting out against him would solve anything,even if you were getting D and never going to see him again. If you're mean, pissy, or don't talk to him that could be more damaging to you and your family. If he truly is remorseful, such behaviors could make him feel even worse. According to MB principles, those behaviors are love busters.

By all means, it's ok to be angry, but use the anger constructively. In fact you can't heal without doing so. Anger is one of the stages of getting through grief. And if you weren't angry, we'd all think you were indifferent to him and the M. (He might think so to.) But he has to own what he did, deal with his issues, learn to see you as person who not only deserves respect, but as someone who has the right to cope with hurts and live her life as she sees fit.

He betrayed you. It isn't his right to mandate your outcome because of his betrayal. That's a very condescending attitude for him to have for so many years. He seems to believe that he knows you better than you know yourself and that he is the ultimate one making the decisions of your destiny. Like you aren't capable of,or person enough, doing that yourself..kwim? It's almost easier to accept he did it to cover his assets (which is very narcissistic)than to accept that it was done to "protect you" (which indicates he sees you as property or as an object in someway...rather than as an individual with her own identity)

As far as D or R,only you can decide that. Since you recently found out more details, it could very well be too early for you to decide.

However, you're going to have to do some major soul searching with regards to the family issue and what you expect from a spouse. We don't expect our spouses to cheat. Unfortunately,it happens. Fortunately, the affair can stop, the wayward spouse can become a F(former)WS,and the M reconciled without the affair remaining in the background. There is closure to the A.

But with family AP's,there isn't closure. It's like it gets tabled. The BS has to compartmentalize because we don't have our spouse with us at family events and we know why. :**( Makes it difficult to permanently heal because it's painful...like a very tender scar.

If not having his support during family funerals/illness or not having him at your side to share in joyful events like weddings, new babies,birthdays, baptisms,reunions, etc is absolutely unacceptable to you,then don't waste another day, get a D. I say this so bluntly because if this is a deal breaker for you,you won't be able to recover your marriage.

[Quote]I agree that things were being shared. He tells me they didn't reveal their feelings about each other to each other. Maybe I'm a total fool for believing these answers. I don't really know.

I also agree that it's odd that it was only kissing (a minute or so all three times, I'm told ... as in not as much passion but more comfort) and no other physical contact. This is what he swears to. I don't know for sure because I wasn't there. He knows that if I were to ever learn otherwise, I'd be out the door.[Quote/]


I don't see how you can permanently move forward if you think that his story seems odd. You're still in a similar position that you had with your one sister's remark (not OWsis). Something isn't sitting right with you.

He has to help you reach an understanding of what happened. You can and should ask more questions. Such as, "Why did you think it was ok to kiss her if neither one of you shared your feelings for each other? She's your SIL, why did you think a romantic kiss was acceptable,esp when you hadn't shared feelings with each other?"

Delta, you got to let him know he's putting himself in a potentially precarious position. He's inadvertently making himself look bad...like he can randomly go and kiss a woman without knowing her intentions/feelings for him.

He's minimizing what happened, and placing himself in a position of further weakness by doing so. There is a logical reason that you find his story odd. it doesn't make sense. Folks don't normally go and kiss others romantically without knowing their intentions and feelings (at least of the intentions). He's a man,she could have put his butt to the wall if he made an unwanted advance toward her. That's her BIL. There's more to the story than 3 romantic kisses with unknown feelings.

Could have been just plain sexual attraction between the two of them and they acted on it. But you need to know what was going on within his mind that gave him permission to share 3 kisses with her.kwim?

And I'm not saying there was something more physical,but they were sharing something and he needs to disclose that to you.

Also,be very careful when you say that you would be out of the marriage if there is more than what he currently swears to. You're asking to get lied to,at your expense, if he thinks it will keep you in the marriage to lie by omission. You'll get gas lighted and truth trickled to death. Go with your gut. If something seems odd,it's because it is.

I agree. We are nowhere near reconciled but rather in the process of healing and reconciliation. He most definitely needs to work on these issues.


Yes, I do know what you mean. I don't feel this is the way he treats me (as his property or an object) ... in fact that's so far from how he treats me. If anything, I'm too independent rather than interdependent, but that has improved in recent years. So maybe it was more covering his a** ... I don't know. He has said it was due to fear -- about losing me (he thought I'd definitely divorce him), my family being torn apart, etc. (his words, not mine)


It is a deal breaker for me.

So is that it? In your opinion, divorce is our only solution?

Who said we're permanently moving forward and that he's done helping me reach an understanding of what happened? Who said I'm not continuing to ask questions? Did I not say that we're focusing on what he's learned, what I've learned and what our expectations are now?

I feel that you're making a lot of incorrect assumptions.

This is new. We are still in this process. I don't yet have all the answers. Never said I did.

To clarify what I've said to him, I've told him that this is the time for 100% honesty. Tell me everything. Now. If I ever learn something different in the future, I will leave you.

And I would.

No assumptions,just bad wording on my part if I've led you to think that we don't realize both of you are in the early stages of the process.

I've been told by 2 different professionals and I have also read that it takes two to five years to recover from an A. So of course, I understand that you both are at the starting gate. My apologies for not being more sensitive in my wording. It's obvious that you are a strong,intelligent,caring,loving person from your posts.

Processing through it does take time because both of you are working on it. It is also a good sign that he is answering your questions and helping you heal. It's not going to get fixed overnight,I understand that.

Delta,

I know your focus is on dealing with his affair. I know your focus is on deciding if you really want to be married to him. I know your focus is on what this will do to your family interactions. Nothing wrong with this focus, in fact, you are correct to do this.

I would like to talk about the future abit. One, there is no excuse for what he did. Period. However, this revelation is also an OPPORTUNITY for YOU to review your role in this marriage and what you bring to it with regard to meeting your H's needs. It is an OPPORTUNITY for you and your H to really address communications issues such as they exist.

I suspect that your H would have been right had he told you, you would have divorced him, even if it was "only" a kiss. Your statemenst suggest that you have matured a bit now and see marriage a bit differently. Reflect on that. And think about Pep's comment about the asking people to be honest about med's and then firing them if they told of a mistake. That is more profound than you realize.

I also know that you have only been dealing with this for a short period while your H has had 9 years to address and adjust to what he did. That puts you two at two different points of recovery. However, it is also possible that he has had 9 years of guilt to endure for what he did.

This brings me to the very last point I would like you to consider. I have been her a long time, and oddly one of the things that often gets in the way of recovery is guilt on the part of the WS who wants to recover. You need to be aware that while it might make you feel good for him to "suffer" for his profound error in judgement, it is not in your best interest to do this. It is not in your children's best interest to do this. You don't realize it yet, but by telling your children about his failure(which you should have done as you two did), he will NEVER be viewed by them the same again. He will NEVER be their hero, and that will haunt him for the rest of his life.

I am not saying he and the children will not have a good relationship or a loving relationship, but he is the man that hurt their mother and while they needed to know, it does change things.

So while you are thinking punishment, or revenge in your darkest moment, consider that fact. As for your family I think given that this occured 9 years ago and he has been around your family many time since then, that you can safely be around your family with your H. I know this goes against Harley's NC for life, but this situation will only occur with you and/or your children around. And everyone knows of the situation, so there are many eyes watching him. My guess is that he won't feel very comfortable being around your family, but to support you he must be.

Just some thoughts for you to consider.

JL

Unfortunately,I said the very same words to my husband. Two years ago,5 years out from finding out, I learned a new detail. Not really anything major. But something I wished I had known early on that had to do with their flirting.

When I got home, my whole countenance was changed. I was so calmly indifferent. He was very distressed because I was done. He begged me to talk to him. I don't know why, but I did. I didn't tell all I had just learned because I felt that could give him to much info, but I gave the bare minimum.He really sat there and thought about it. After a good hour, he remembered and reiterated what I had learned. But he hadn't remembered for a long time.

I understand that we do forget minor details years later. (In fact, he and I both recently forgot the timing of one incident. We thought it had happened on a certain weekend when it was actually a different time)

So it can be that he has forgotten minor details. Would you want him want to be forthcoming when he does remember minor stuff (like having said something such as "you have pretty eyes",etc)? If yes, you might want to consider how to approach him with that. He might not understand that you would consider letting him tell you something that he might have truly forgotten without it being a reason to leave him. It is 9 years later,so there could be some forgotten minor stuff that he recalls as he goes back in his thoughts .

But with any major details and everything he does remember, you're right on that he needs to be 100% honest now.

Is having contact between OWsis and your husband going to be ok with you? That is the other option. How comfortable are you with that?

When I originally found out, it was 2 years after the fact. Both my husband and sister lied (by minimizing)about what had transpired. The spin at the time from my husband was that it was neither attraction nor emotional. This went on for too long. 5 years after the fact,my husband decided to be honest about the attraction. They had flirted, he made an advance,she had considered it, but declined because she "couldn't do that to her sister". I pay dearly to this day because of what they considered.

(And MB policy is such that if it's been considered by both parties, there is always a chance the attraction could reignite and an affair develop...so NC is necessary. Plus contact can cause feelings of ambivalence in both spouses)

Unfortunately, I didn't use the discussion forum (out of computer ignorance)here at MB when I first found out. I did print out all the questionnaires and read the info on the website. I did what the MB site (not the board) recommended, assumed my H was being honest, and built a better M.

There was continued contact between me, OWsis, H,and my family. My husband got a better wife and M, I got gas- lighted. Needless to say, my sis got peeved at me one day and started yelling about me, my relationship with my husband and about him. My husband then decided to tell me his story. But I can say because it was trickle truth drawn out over along time, I sometimes don't know what I believe. I have a similar perspective to you regarding polygraph...if it is necessary,then is the relationship worth it? The money would be better spent on D.

In the meantime, my husband and I decided that there would be no intentional contact between them. Because it is family, there have been isolated incidents where she has shown up at events we were attending with other family. (Public venues....plus my extended family doesn't respect the NC perspective. My H was around for so many years post dday, "why does it matter now?" is their way of thinking. )

It does create some hard feelings for me. My mind will "flash" thoughts like, "is he attracted to her right now?" or "How could he choose her over me?" It also brings up feelings of inadequacy that I had from growing up in my family. (very dysfunctional family at that)

Oh heck, one holiday I was at my parents' place, she ended up being there (my H wasn't,btw). I was sitting at the table and BAMM into my head, out of the blue: "I wonder if they *expletived* here on this table?" While eating my Christmas dinner of all things! It's just all very difficult to deal with at times. I joke "when it's family, it's the gift that keeps on giving" (being facetious)

I can't say for you that D is the solution. You might prefer to have your husband's support and allow contact. This might work for you now. You might feel differently in the future about having contact.

I know for me, when I didn't know the story of the A (and it wasn't even a full blown EA/PA) I was left wondering. Now I know that they were very attracted to each other...enough to flirt and share a romantic hug. If she had said yes, it would have been a full blown PA.

To have them both in each other's presence reminds me that she is someone he was willing to throw me, our marriage, and our family away for. Doesn't matter that he never meant to hurt me, that he thought I would never find out, etc. This is my reality, especially if they are together (even with family around in a public setting with several thousand people gathered for an event)

I wish there were simple answers to make our pain go away and make everything better. But there aren't. When it comes down to it, I have to do what works for me and my family. You'll have to do the same for you and yours. Only you can decide what you need for *you*. You know your mind and heart.

I'm sad that you are here, no one should be. But I'm glad I've been able to share my painful experience with you. It's such a rare, frightening, traumatic situation to deal with. Because it's not a typical affair, it can be even more isolating to cope with. I just want to let you know that you are not alone in your sufferings. I understand this lonely path in your journey.

Peace,

Jewel

DD


At the risk of taking the Good Doctor out of context, the above quote is in some ways drawing a line in the sand. And while you read Dr. Harley's wisdom and I really suggest you do as much of that as you possibly can, you also read about issues and thoughts and problems that are associated with somebody else, not you.

A couple of sessions with the Coaching Center is a very, very cheap price for perspective.
_______________

At some point, you must move on with a plan.

A plan that is based on Dr. Harley's concepts can only come from reading Dr. Harley's, uh, plans. He gives them away for free here on this site. He has spelled them out in books and seminars and a home study course. Yes, and he has a coaching center that can focus on a custom plan just for you.

Because I attempt to help people here, I read at least one of Dr. Harley's plans, articles or concepts each and every day. It only takes ten or fifteen minutes, sometimes less. Either that, or I read a chapter or two in one of this books. I used to have all of them. But I still have three of them.

And each time I read, I come away with something new. And each person here has a somewhat different take on what he says because we are all individuals with different perspectives in life. And he is seldom looking over our shoulder setting us straight, making sure we get it exactly. I never will be able to completely understand Dr. Harley.

He is a professional who has spent decades developing his work. It is like taking a test in college. I may have made an 85, but that doesn't mean I know all but 15%. I might not have been able to answer who knows how many other questions that could have been asked.

My take on Dr. Harley, and this is just my take, what I get out of reading, is that at some point, you really do have to focus on moving ahead instead of reviewing again and again and again the details of the affair. And Dr. Harley has a serious plan for moving ahead, which, if you follow it, can lead to a really, really good place to be.

And as you move ahead, don't beat yourself up for not understanding something that you didn't understand. We don't have it in our head until we, uh, have it in our head. You learn and adapt and there you go.

One thing is certain. The seeds of adultery are in ALL of us. You shouldn't trust your husband and he shouldn't trust you. THAT concept is straight forward and has no wiggle room.

Just some ideas that might help you.

Larry

Just to add something:

Dr. Harley isn't about Surviving an Affair. That is just one part of his concepts and not even the most important part. His plans and concepts are for building a great marriage. He explains how and why and he makes sense to me. But, uh, you have to read them to get the knowledge.

Larry

Thanks everyone for your caring posts.

My husband is calling MB in the morning to set up MC for us, and I also asked him to begin IC.

He came home today in tears to tell me it was in fact a full blown affair. They had sex twice. So yes, he's been lying to me for the past six weeks.

RMJ, I know you were simply wanting me to feel secure that I've gotten all the information, and now I do.

This changes everything for me. I had no emotional reaction, I have not cried, not been angry. Just resolute. Maybe I'm in shock, maybe I don't care. I don't know.

Did I mention that my dad died two days before d-day? No, I left that part out. (events surrounding that actually caused me to re-question husband 8 yrs later) My husband's latest excuse for not telling me full truth on d-day was that it wasn't the right time because of all of that.

What the FFFFFFFFFFFFF ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My world really is a blur right now.

BTW, I called my BIL immediately to ask if he knew they had sex.

He did not.

Now he knows. And I told him that he should know that she's still lying to him about other current things. But that's not my concern, not my concern, not my concern.

Delta, I am so sorry. I am sorry this happened, not sorry you got the truth. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Delta}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Delta

Please do what Pep has suggested, call your doctor. You didn't need this. And now you have to deal with it. I am so very sorry.

Larry

Oh ((((((Delta)))))I am so sorry.

I am with Pep that this probably isn't the end of the drama.
At least you feel like things make sense.

I am so sorry.