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Jim, here's another article that may interest you: Regret, Sorrow and True Contrition:...ly But Just Keep On Doing Hurtful Things "Living and dealing with persons of deficient character is always difficult. But many people increase the level of pain they experience in their relationships with problem characters by buying into the notion that if a person says they�re sorry, sheds a tear, or looks unhappy, things will necessarily be different. They give too much regard to a person�s regret and sorrow and don�t look hard enough for evidence of true contrition. A person�s genuine willingness and commitment to make amends is always accompanied by plan of action to accomplish precisely those ends. In short, a person�s actions always speak louder than their words or even their emotional expressions. The contrite person starts doing things differently."
FBW in recovery
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DDD just remember that waywards THRIVE on drama. It's like breathing. Don't feed them. They will latch on to someone else and leave you alone. 
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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Jim, here's another article that may interest you: Regret, Sorrow and True Contrition:...ly But Just Keep On Doing Hurtful Things "Living and dealing with persons of deficient character is always difficult. But many people increase the level of pain they experience in their relationships with problem characters by buying into the notion that if a person says they�re sorry, sheds a tear, or looks unhappy, things will necessarily be different. They give too much regard to a person�s regret and sorrow and don�t look hard enough for evidence of true contrition. A person�s genuine willingness and commitment to make amends is always accompanied by plan of action to accomplish precisely those ends. In short, a person�s actions always speak louder than their words or even their emotional expressions. The contrite person starts doing things differently." Thanks Delta!!!  The article hit the nail on the head about TRUE repentance being marked by contrition. My ex-brother is a MASTER at getting people to feel sorry for him and how he is SOOOOOO sorry for what he did by telling THEM how sorry he is... but not ME... because if he was TRULY repentant he would be trying to prove it with his ACTIONS not trying to enlist other family members support. My dad told me what a good CHRISTIAN my ex-brother has become the other day... Had an "I LOVE JESUS" facebook like on his facebook friends page... Silly me had to look... MAYBE he was changing... YES, there it was right in his friends listing... RIGHT NEXT TO THE LISTING FOR THE LOCAL STRIP CLUB!!!  Jim
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Looking for your feedback ... H and I were talking about how the most troublesome part of this horrible mess for me continues to be underlying pressure from certain family members that sooomeday ... blah, blah, blah ... I'll be such a forgiving person that I'll be able to be around OWsister. That I'm the one who's holding back on reconciliation. Just yesterday I was talking to another sister whose daughter is getting married in the spring. We were discussing the wedding, and she said she'd be inviting "everyone." I said she may want to reconsider to make it less stressful for everyone, including her, and only invite me or OWsister. But then I changed the subject because H asked me to let him handle the issue instead of me having to. The unspoken onus has been on me. H wants to change that so the onus on him. H wants to send to a letter to this sister's H. What do you think about this letter? What would you change or delete or add? (p.s. I wanted to include the abuse paragraph because of what OWsister is throwing around ... that I'm abusing her. Leave it in or take it out?) Hi (BIL). I want to share this radio broadcast with you and ask you to listen to it with (your wife). http://richwith.com/mb/radio/shows/10-2010/10-13-10/(MB 101110 - segments A and B) Since weddings for a couple of your daughters are on the horizon, I wanted to share this broadcast with you and kindly ask that (my wife) and I only be invited to events hosted by your family in which (OWsister) is not invited. We understand that (my wife) won't be invited to certain events in order for (OWsister) to have her turn. This approach will actually relieve all of us from having to discuss and have anxiety about who's going and who's not, which would only create a lot of chaos and flare ups for everyone. I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact. There is simply no way around it. This is what I must do for my wife and marriage, for protection for her and protection for me. I would be undermining my marriage and our family by allowing the no contact policy to be broken. So you see, it will never be up to (my wife) to get to some place down the road where she forgives (OWsister) at some extraordinary level that allows us to be in her presence. My commitment to no contact has nothing to do with (my wife)'s level of forgiveness. Our decision is not made in anger, bitterness or vindictiveness. It's actually made out of love, care and protection for us, our marriage and our family. We teach our kids about God's love and forgiveness, and (my wife) has more forgiveness and compassion in her heart than I could ever imagine. But we also teach our kids other biblical lessons about true repentance and contrition, about actions having lifelong consequences and about how the health and strength of our marriage and family needs to come first so other positive things follow. Our decision for no contact is based on following a proven plan of infidelity recovery that thousands of other couples have followed with great success. The foundation of that plan is an absolute commitment to no contact for life between former affair partners. It may be hard to understand for those who haven't experienced adultery, but no decent marriage counselor would encourage contact of any kind. Many clinical psychologists like Dr. Harley have counseled couples for decades and truly understand the devastation infidelity causes and what's needed to repair the damage. Contact even years from now would likely trigger intense suffering for me, (my wife) and our marriage and cause new struggles for us. I know nobody wants that. Some may believe they'd handle things differently, and that's okay. We know others can't fully appreciate our position if they haven't walked in our shoes and dealt with this issue. The bottom line is that (my wife) was and is the victim of cruel abuse that nobody should ever have to endure. I caused it, and (OWsister) caused it. (My wife) continued to endure abuse for years, abuse others aren't privy to that she's working out now. No matter how things get twisted, (my wife) is most certainly not the abuser. That is absurd. It's finally time that I step up and properly protect her emotional health which is why I asked for discussions about us with (OWsister) to end. I'm not trying to control anyone with that request but am only asking others to respect that (OWsister) having a window into any part of our lives feels like another dirty invasion on our family. This total separation from (OWsister) and (her husband) is not a problem for me and is what finally feels right. It should have happened years ago to spare many people from more grief, including me. I'm confident that no contact is the best approach and the only logical path to follow to fully heal ourselves and our marriage and to keep our marriage strong and healthy in the future. If more understanding about the no contact policy is needed, a google search for "no contact adultery/infidelity" will direct you to dozens of resources including Dr. Harley's MarriageBuilders.com. (BIL), we really appreciate all the support and prayers from you and (your wife) through this. I'm so sorry for the pain and complications I've caused both of you and the rest of the family. (My wife) and I are doing well and are really looking forward to our vacation with you two. Love,
FBW in recovery
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I didn't read the whole letter(sorry it IS long). All I want to say is that I think you need a different approach to this sitch. I think, instead of changing everyone else's opinions and behaviour, you just need to tweek your own. What do I mean? What I think you are missing here is that you are asking your family to choose sides. You are asking them to choose when OWsis or you go somewhere. Take the choice out of their hands. Let them invite who they want. And then, assuming(you are going to be in a Plan B type thing with your OWsis) that OWsis will be there, you will decline the invite. You will thank the person for inviting you and you will say, "I am sorry, my H and I will be unable to attend. We wish you well." Does that mean that you will miss out on a lot of good events in your family life? Sure. But, you have made the choice to recover your marriage properly, and that means without seeing your OWsis EVER. It seems that the letter DID bother you more than you let on. I know that you are trying to shrug it off, but it got to you. Especially how your sis accused you of being an abuser. It would upset anyone. You need to go dark on her. No contact is for BOTH you and your H. So, I would say scrap the whole letter to BIL. I hope I explained myself well enough.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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Also, as far as what others believe you should be doing differently, tell them that you appreciate their opinion and you have decided to do things this way. Don't try to educate people about what SHOULD be done. Just tell them what you are doing and that the reason for it is to simply protect you and your marriage. Afterall, they can't argue that you should protect yourself and your marriage.
There are ALWAYS people who think that we shouldn't use MB because it is counter-intuitive. Once they see how you start to recover, they stop telling you that you are doing the right thing.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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I understand what you're saying, Scotland. It seems awfully complicated for H to get on the phone every time there's an invite to ask the host if OWsister is coming. Is that the better approach? He wants me to stay out of it to spare me turmoil, and I agree.
How should we approach explaining NC to the family then?
Starting with the "I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact" paragraph, the letter is about NC.
It hasn't been explained to them before. They think it's all my decision.
FBW in recovery
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I think it is entirely appropriate for your FWH to protect you from your family's misguided intentions. I think it is wonderful that he take on that role.
I like his letter. What I would skip is attaching the broadcast. You don't need to justify yourselves. You already state the source in your letter -- and it seems that your family doesn't "get" the comparison to rape in the broadcast, and it may distract from your message.
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Also, as far as what others believe you should be doing differently, tell them that you appreciate their opinion and you have decided to do things this way. Don't try to educate people about what SHOULD be done. Just tell them what you are doing and that the reason for it is to simply protect you and your marriage. Afterall, they can't argue that you should protect yourself and your marriage.
There are ALWAYS people who think that we shouldn't use MB because it is counter-intuitive. Once they see how you start to recover, they stop telling you that you are doing the right thing. OK, so how do we tell them? What's the best way?
FBW in recovery
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I differ with Lexxy on this. I like the idea of attaching the radio show. Hearing a credentialed psychologist explain the dynamics at play here is very impactful. Sure, some won't get it, but many will.
I applaud your H for taking the lead on this!
p.s. I would be sure and tell them your story is in segment A and B.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Lexxxy, although I agree that it is good that her H has decided to take on that role, I think where this gets complicated is the fact that this IS DDD's sis. Normally, a family would totally understand and agree with NC. My mother, for example, would NEVER think that I should be okay with being around OW if my WH were to return. The complication is only in the fact that OW is a family member and although her H is her family, he isn't blood. And, families sometimes feel that the "blood" should always be forgiven sins that others should not. I think that if DDD were to get an honest opinion from her family members, some might even say that she should D her H and be friends with her sis again. It's crazy talk, but it is what a lot of people might feel. DDD, what would would say to them is something along the lines of, "My H and I are following a recovery program that has been created by a man named Dr Harley. He has counseled THOUSANDS of couples in his 40 year career. He has many books on marriage and one titled "Surviving an Affair." This book tells how to survive an affair and create a better marriage than before. A part of the process that he describes is the rule that the wayward spouses(the people who had the affair) should be in no contact with each other FOR LIFE. This ensures that the affair will never reignite and it also is meant to protect the betrayed spouse from further pain. My H and I have decided that this is the right thing for us. This is the plan that we have decided to follow. I appreciate the advice that you give me, as I know that it comes from a place of love. I only ask that you respect our decision to proceed with our recovery from my H's A in this manner. Any support you could give us is greatly appreciated. Thank you for thinking about me and wanting to protect me. If you are at all interested in the Marriage Builders program, or about Dr Harley, you could visit the website www.marriagebuilders.com. Again, thank you. DDD" I found that as long as I showed confidence in the MB program and DrH, people tended to respect my decisions. Also, it helps to know a lot about the program and have an ability to explain it effectively. I actually even had some of the people want to check it out. I don't know if they ever did but they stopped questioning my choices and instead were interested in learning about MB.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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I differ with Lexxy on this. I like the idea of attaching the radio show. Hearing a credentialed psychologist explain the dynamics at play here is very impactful. Sure, some won't get it, but many will.
I applaud your H for taking the lead on this!
p.s. I would be sure and tell them your story is in segment A and B. So you think he should send the letter? Where's the poll option in these threads? haha Do you think some parts should be omitted? I know it's long. I kept wanting him to add stuff.
FBW in recovery
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I differ with Lexxy on this. I like the idea of attaching the radio show. Hearing a credentialed psychologist explain the dynamics at play here is very impactful. Sure, some won't get it, but many will.
I applaud your H for taking the lead on this!
p.s. I would be sure and tell them your story is in segment A and B. So you think he should send the letter? Where's the poll option in these threads? haha Do you think some parts should be omitted? I know it's long. I kept wanting him to add stuff. I would chop it back to about 3-4 paragraphs and include the radio links; you don't want to lose your audience with a too long email. He can make that point with less words.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I think the letter is great -- but I agree with ML that it could be shortened a bit.
If you're going to send the link -- maybe don't lead with it?
Include it at the end...and say this advice was specifically addressed to our situation and given to us by the author and founder of the Marriage Builders program.
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Hi (BIL). I want to share this radio broadcast with you and ask you to listen to it with (your wife). http://richwith.com/mb/radio/shows/10-2010/10-13-10/(MB 101110 - segments A and B) Since weddings for a couple of your daughters are on the horizon, I wanted to share this broadcast with you and kindly ask that (my wife) and I only be invited to events hosted by your family in which (OWsister) is not invited. We understand that (my wife) won't be invited to certain events in order for (OWsister) to have her turn. This approach will actually relieve all of us from having to discuss and have anxiety about who's going and who's not, which would only create a lot of chaos and flare ups for everyone. I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact. There is simply no way around it. This is what I must do for my wife and marriage, for protection for her and protection for me. I would be undermining my marriage and our family by allowing the no contact policy to be broken. Many clinical psychologists like Dr. Harley have counseled couples for decades and truly understand the devastation infidelity causes and what's needed to repair the damage. Contact even years from now would likely trigger intense suffering for me, (my wife) and our marriage and cause new struggles for us. I know nobody wants that. (BIL), we really appreciate all the support and prayers from you and (your wife) through this. I'm so sorry for the pain and complications I've caused both of you and the rest of the family. (My wife) and I are doing well and are really looking forward to our vacation with you two. We love you both, MrDelta and Delta
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact. There is simply no way around it. This is what I must do for my wife and marriage, for protection for her and protection for me. I would be undermining my marriage and our family by allowing the no contact policy to be broken. How about: "I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact. This is what I have chosen to do for my wife and marriage, for our protection. I would be undermining my marriage and our family by allowing the no contact policy to be broken." I think this makes it a bit clearer that the NC is a personal choice of DDD's H, and not something being forced upon him.
ManInMotion
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(see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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I think that if DDD were to get an honest opinion from her family members, some might even say that she should D her H and be friends with her sis again. It's crazy talk, but it is what a lot of people might feel. Scotland, I appreciate your thoughts, but I can assure you that nobody in my family thinks I should divorce my husband.
FBW in recovery
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deltadrivedeceit
�I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact.�
Pointless, they will believe the WH is taking the heat for the BW.
�There is simply no way around it.�
Cut the justification, if you were in the right you should not have to justify your actions is the way the family is going to see this.
�This is what I must do for my wife and marriage, for protection for her and protection for me. I would be undermining my marriage and our family by allowing the no contact policy to be broken.�
More hot air and justification.
How about:
Dear family
Clinical psychologists like Dr. Harley have counseled couples for decades and truly understand the devastation infidelity causes and how to repair the damage.
Continued contact now and years from now will trigger memories of what was done and re inflict the pain the affair brought WH and BW. Loving feelings and a healthy marriage can not happen when contact brings constant negative reminders. It�s one thing to forgive but another to forget.
Then second thing about no contact, NC is that statistically it has been proven that affairs can restart when there is contact. When contact happens post affair, whether one year, ten, twenty, thirty years past the affair the odds are to high that the affair will restart.
WH, BW and I�m sure OW, OWH do not want to see this affair restarted as well as the rest of the family. As you can see NC is not about punishing the family but protecting the family. It�s not about taking sides, it about the family providing buffer zones so NC is maintained.
WH and I are not saying don�t invite OW and OWH to family functions. Just don�t invite us to the same events as you invite them. If you feel the need to invite both of us because you don�t want to take sides we won�t take it personal but please do not take it personal that we won�t go.
Sincerely WH BW
No reason to feel embarrassed when you receive an invitation to ask did they invite the OW OWH.
As families will want to do they may lie and say the OW OWH were not invited. Do not be angry at them cause they think that they were trying to be peace makers. The end justified the means would be their logic. Even though your marriage has recovered to them the whole family has not recovered because everyone can�t be together to celebrate because of NC.
If you find yourself in that situation just quietly and quickly leave. The only other thing you can say to family is that if their spouse became a WS would they still want the OP to come and socialize and celebrate with their WS and the rest of the family. Were do they want the OP to be seated at the thanksgiving table? OP one side of the WS the BS one the WS�s other side?
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Thanks for the edits. Here's the revision so far: Hi (BIL). I want to share this radio broadcast with you and ask you to listen to it with (your wife). http://richwith.com/mb/radio/shows/10-2010/10-13-10/(MB 101110 - please listen to segments A and B) Since weddings for a couple of your daughters are on the horizon, I wanted to share this broadcast with you and kindly ask that (my wife) and I only be invited to events hosted by your family in which (OWsister) is not invited. We understand that (my wife) won't be invited to certain events to give OWsister a turn. This approach will actually relieve everyone from having to discuss who's attending and who's not, discussions that would probably create chaos and anxiety for all of us. I want to clarify that it's me who is so adamant about no contact. This is what I have chosen to do for my wife and marriage, for our protection. I would be undermining my marriage and our family by allowing the no contact policy to be broken. My commitment to this policy has nothing to do with (my wife)'s level of forgiveness and never will. Clinical psychologists like Dr. Harley have counseled thousands of couples for decades and truly understand the devastation infidelity causes and what's needed to repair the damage, starting with no contact for life between former affair partners. Contact even years from now would likely trigger suffering for me, (my wife) and our marriage and cause new struggles for us. I know nobody wants that. (BIL), we really appreciate all the support and prayers from you and (your wife) through this. I'm so sorry for the pain and complications I've caused both of you and the rest of the family. (My wife) and I are doing well and are really looking forward to our vacation with you two.
FBW in recovery
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Thanks, TheRoad. Good points. we'll rework a couple things.
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