Actually, my first incident of inappropriate behavior with another man occurred a couple weeks before H's first kiss with OW, which kicked off their A. Perhaps his radar went off instead.

I had taken my best friend away to the big city for the weekend to help her escape her turmoil. We had a blast by day and night ... some very late nights, but I didn't share all of the details with my H.

DA*N IT!

I just remembered that when I told my OWsister about my weekend in the city, I told her that I danced with a guy and was super tempted to kiss him.

Another detail she no doubt used to cast her web.

She is such a freaking witch. One of our other sisters called her a black widow yesterday. ha! Very fitting.

Husband still kissed her that night, though.

There's no escaping that fact.

You see what I mean about anchor moments?


Once you are able to have one moment in time anchored there - an event that is meaningful, the brain is often able to "fill in" other events around that moment.


It is magical.


I love when I do this IRL.


I once had a client who did not know his own name, where he lived, etc. He thought he lived in a certain town and that he was married. We had tried - without luck - to contact a wife in that town, to locate anyone with the name he had given us.

So I had worked with him over many days, many sessions. The one thing I always did was orient to the date. "What is the date?" I would ask, and we worked YET AGAIN with the calendar. This one day, I asked again (the second session of the day). I pulled out the calendar, he looked, and realized it was the last day of the month. "I HAVE TO CALL MY BANKER! MY RENT IS DUE!" he yelled. I grabbed the phone and gave it to him, and he dialed the bank - from memory, and asked for his banker by name.

From there, we were able to figure out who he was, that he hadn't been married for quite a longe time (18 years), where he lived (NOT where he thought), and we were able to contact his next of kin.

We worked upward from his accident, and backward from his accident. He went home a few weeks later - remembering lots of things.


But it took an anchor point for him - his rent date.


Odd, but true.


SB

Very interesting story, SB. The calendar has been helping us remember a lot.

I'm devastated by the decisions my husband made in 2001 that worked to destroy me and our family. I've been with him for 21 years, and I still can't understand how he could have conducted himself the way he did. It's so not him ... yet it is him.

How do I reconcile that? Temporary insanity? In the end, is that how all betrayed spouses reconcile it?

The truth is, I'm even more devastated and feel more betrayed by my sister. Right or wrong, I can't help it. She played us against each other and disguised it as genuine caring. She manipulated both of us and has been manipulating me in different ways ever since. It's not temporary insanity for her; it's plain old long term insanity.

With or without my husband by my side, her being in my life -- even from a distance, where she will remain -- will be the hardest part of healing because others don't see her quite like I do.

This description fits her to a tee:

�There are women who by nature are romantics but don't quite want to escape their own life. Instead they'd rather have some guy wreck his life for them. We call them spider women. While she is sucking the blood from other people's marriages, she feels some relief from the pain of having her own marriage betrayed. She simply requires that a man love her enough to sacrifice his life for her. She may be particularly attracted to happy marriages, clearly envious of the woman whose husband is faithful and loving to her. Sometimes it isn't clear whether she wants to replace the happy wife or just make her miserable. The spider women who are least squeamish and most likely to wreak havoc on other people's marriages are victims of some sort of abuse, so angry that they don't feel bound by the usual rules or obligations, so desperate that they cling to any source of security, and so miserable that they don't bother to think a bit of the end of it.�

So sad to know this applies to your own sister.

Thanks for this post from the other day, JL. I re-read it this morning, and it helps.


We need to discuss this with Dr. Harley because this is what feels right and makes sense to me also. If we end up together, I wouldn't want to go to a family wedding without him. No way.

DDD,

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. You're getting some Sunday school answers like, "lust" and "temptation". ok...that maybe quite valid.... Oh, and the depression answer too.

However, your above quote mentions philandering. Philanderers are known for multiple A's.

I'm not saying that your H has had multiple A's.

However, what I'm trying to get at is that you will definitely come to a point in which your mind says, "Wait a minute. My H is telling me there was no other emotional connection than the lust and attraction. He was willing to throw me, his children and our M away to have sex with my sister? My sister? Huh? I can't believe he hasn't been attracted to any other woman while M to me. And it sure as heck would be easier and less risky for him to hook up with a woman outside of my family. Why hasn't H had more affairs?"

The mind is a strange thing.

You do need to ask him what it was about his attraction to your sister that allowed him to give himself permission to cheat with her. Also ask him why he hasn't had other affairs. The consensus in the psych field is that a H who will cheat on his W with her sis,will cheat with anyone that he feels the urge toward. Also, most folks see it that way too. If a SO (significant other) will have sexual relations with his own children's relative (outside of their mom), then he's a dawg. (not saying that's how I feel, but the consensus of most others)


I'm just sharing this with you since you will come across those attitudes as you tell what happened to family and close friends. You might find that your sisters' husbands will be uncomfortable with your husband around their daughters and wives. Friends may also feel uncomfortable around your husband since it isn't the typical AP. A family member as an affair partner crosses a societal line. It gives folks the heebie jeebies, if you kwim?

Your situation is one that you have to be cautious with whom you tell.

Will you cite literature about this? Thanks.

Ohhh, DDD, talking to your sister about OWsis is bad, bad, bad. It's called triangulation. Until you speak with Dr Harley,try not to discuss much with your family. Let Dr Harley or his staff coach you with the most positive way of discussing it with your family.

There are several layers to your dynamic. I found that ultimately a sister will not give up contact or even minimize contact, with the OWsis. They are "blood" and "blood is thicker than water". They may be guarded with OWsis, but I doubt much will change. Your husband however, will be placed on the outside. Even if they have him around, the dynamic will be different now that you and they know the truth.

Also, please don't entertain the idea that your being "super tempted" to kiss a guy played into your husbands choice. While OWsis might have mentioned it to H (see the triangulation there), his choice was his own.

A wife's temptation does not give a green light for a husband to cheat, much less to cheat with his wife's sister. Please don't think that way. Of course she talked to your husband. Heck, OW flirt, play victim, and sometimes even prance around half-dressed in front of WH. But regardless of what he was, or wasn't getting at home, his choice was still his choice. (And I have a feeling that your WH will tell you the same thing)

I empathize with your feelings about your OWsis, though. But the fact remains, if your H had been turning his interest toward you and your M, she could have cast out a million webs. He wouldn't have been around to get ensnared.

Oh, hellllls no. I don't think that in any way, shape or form.

He and he alone was the scoundrel who betrayed his wife.

But isn't it recommended that we examine the conditions in our marriage at the time of the A?

While sorting out my feelings and opinions, however, I also need to sort out my feelings and opinions about my sister. What my relationship was with her is a separate matter. Perhaps this thread is not the right place to work those issues out.

I'll stick to my husband.

To summarize:

-He gave me Sunday School answers of lust and temptation
-He threw in the depression line
-Even though he's telling me these are his views, there must have been deeper emotions he's not revealing
-He's a dawg who will cheat and has likely already cheated with anyone he feels the urge toward, according to the psych field
-Sisters' husbands and friends will probably be uncomfortable around him

Thanks for the insight. I'll share this with him later to see what he thinks.

Interestingly, H spoke with Dr. Harley this morning who said he's successfully helped many couples recover from this situation (A between H and SIL). So, Dr. Harley seemed quite a bit more hopeful.

I have had two counselors tell me this directly. The one counselor I still have contact with. I can ask her the resources on it and get back with you later in the week. Both of the counselors I mentioned are in the cognitive/behavioral field of psych and they seemed to project to me that was the consensus, at least in their field.

(In Freudian psych, there is a school that believes in an affair, the WS is acting out or making a stand against the parent he or she had most internal conflict with (in the form of the BS) and is siding with the more favored parent (in the form of the AP). (Btw, the psych field is beginning to accept that freud most likely did have an affair with his SIL...talk about issues!)

As far as society goes, that's the feedback people give through the media and what I also had received from those in my inner circles that knew of my situation.

There were few people that I told. They basically reiterated the perspective of a WH/OWsis relationship to me that I wrote to you. Unfortunately, they also gradually backed out my life. One friend that I told, her older children were Godparents to one of my kids. Needless to say, that family didn't stay in our lives. My child "lost" his Godparents. I don't blame the mom either. Her DD was a beautiful older teen and I don't think she felt comfortable having her family around my H.

A few years post Dday, once my own DD became an older teen, she reiterated the same perspective. Asked me why I don't think her dad hasn't been with others, because if he could consider my sis....yada, yada. (Heck, my own counselors asked me the same thing, come to think of it!)

By all means, I'm not saying these professionals are right. Nor are others right. However, that same perspective had come to my mind before I ever told anyone else or met with the first counselor.

It seemed logical to question why there hadn't been other affairs if it was only temptation, attraction, lust etc from his perspective ...my mind needed to understand it in order to fully process it. It's not cut and dry, black or white. But the "logical" part of our brains tries to make it that way. We end up asking all kinds of questions in our minds because of it. I'm just sharing this because it will most likely come up with you,too.

Ask Dr Harley his take it on. I wonder what his camp thinks.

I'd like to read more about this. So, in my H's case, would it (possibly) be that he had more conflict with his mom? And the A with AP somehow helps him take sides with his dad?

Yep,we have to examine the M conditions. Good to see that you are on target with your perspective of his decision. Unfortunately, once in a while a few people will be misunderstood about the MB concepts and believe it was the conditions of the M that caused the cheating,thus my remark. Nope, MB philosophy places the responsibility of cheating right on the WS where it belongs.

Right on about sorting out your feelings toward your OWsis.

You can rest assured,that at some point, you will even dig into the dynamics of your family also. I know I did. I came to realize that many women in my family condone the role of an OW, justify cheating with a WS/MM, blame a BW for the M problems and for not taking better care of her H. An OW is the victim. A WS/MM is the victim. A BW is the freaking witch. In my family, my OWsis still is the "victim" in every bad decision she's made in her life. My family just luuuuvvvs pity parties!

Sound bitter????? Nahhhhh! Instead, I'm overjoyed that I finally was able to see my family dynamic the way it is. Such freedom...from the chaos and dysfunction in my case. I don't have to be involved in their nasty intrigues. I speak out when they violate what they say their values are. The change has been a sloooowww process with some of the females in my family.


My H, he was willing to do the work on himself and change. I'll stick with my H too.

I was looking on the web and it's there at some of the psych sites. I wondered too,in my case too. But it would be that my H saw me as his dad, (which scares the hades out of me...because his mom was a victim of domestic violence at his dad's hands...) My H did say he "pitied" my sis. Maybe my h did side with his mom in his consideration of AP.

I don't know....I pondered it too, until the Freud/Sil info. Then I wondered which parent it was that Freud had so much conflict with...

Had to run and pick-up DD. Since Dr Harley is in your court, he will get to the issues quick. Your H is willing to work at it. You're willing to support your H through it. That's a great combo. I was going to say that since you're working with the best...run with it. With Dr H's guidance, you'll likely be able to move through the process of figuring things out quicker. (whereas I had to figure things out on my own for a good while)

Please don't think I'm saying that your H's reasons aren't his true reasons, or that there were more emotions to it. Or that he's a dawg. To me, that would be disrespectful on my part.

As far as others being uncomfortable, that could very well happen. Not saying it will, rather it's a possibility. Sorry.

Maybe you could ask Dr H's opinion on what you've summarized. I have a feeling he has a different take on some of it.

I totally understand, RMJ. I summarized your points so that my H could look at them in B&W. They are valid points to consider.

Thanks for your input. Seriously!

Had my first counseling session with Steve Harley today. Very insightful, helpful discussion.

I asked him, "Is there something fundamentally wrong with H that he was capable of having A with my sister? Does the fact that he could cross this societal boundary mean there's something psychologically wrong with him ... wrong at his core?"

He said, "uh, yeeeah ... that he has a pulse."

As for whether he will cheat with anyone he feels the urge toward since he could be such a dawg to cheat with his W's sister, he said nobody's above reproach. Anyone can fail with anyone else. Anyone can meet a person's needs if they're allowed to meet the needs. Unless you have a plan to avoid failure, you will fail provided the "right" circumstances and temptations exist.

Seems logical to me.

His recovery plan is not unique for this case. He's counseled many people who've had affairs with in-laws. H and S were not blood relatives and were friends for years before H and I met.

So, heebie jeebies or not (and I know that, yes, it's extra, extra gross and wrong ... WTF???), it is what it is and we move forward from here.

Last night H gave me his "why" letter explaining his state of mind before, during and after A -- his motivations, emotions, what he felt and what he did not feel.

What seems logical, also seems traumatizing. yuck!

There's no "seems" there. It's most definitely trauma ... by far the worst trauma I've ever experienced.

I'm so sorry, DDD. It truly is traumatizing.

So, Dr Harley is coaching you and WH through following the guidelines of his proven recovery plan? I figured he would follow his plan. That's why I wrote about the NC/family issue in my earlier posts to you. I don't think Dr Harley will renege on that MB NC principle. He's going to recommend that there is NC indefinitely between your WH and OWsister.

You've written just how important it is for you to have your spouse at your side for serious family events. My heart aches for you.

Praying that God gives you peace through this trying time.

RMJ