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I recently learned about my husband's 3-4 month affair with my sister that occurred about nine years ago. I'm told that it involved three kisses and many talks and ended when he decided to stop communicating with her about private matters.

I am crushed to say the least.

Her husband was told the truth about the affair a few months after it ended, but I was not. I was lied to. She told me that she had developed feelings for my husband (an "innocent" crush), we discussed it, she apologized, I forgave her, we moved on. My husband also lied and told me that her feelings were not reciprocated; he did not have feelings for her. I was lied to about the frequency and depth of their talks (I did know there were a few) and also about their kisses.

We were all close friends before this period (close sisters and the two men were college buddies - they introduced my husband and I to each other), and we remained close friends afterward, even going on a family trip with our kids a couple weeks after the full details of the affair were revealed to my sister's husband. This boggles my mind; he apparently forgave everything that quickly and had no problem spending several days as one big, happy group. We live a few hours away from each other and saw each other a handful of times each year and have taken a family trip together maybe 5 out of the past 9 years (usually including other siblings and their families). We consider our teenage kids to be close cousins.

I feel my husband has now been truthful about the details of the affair; however, he has a bad memory in general about details (while I remember what I was wearing on a Tuesday 20 years ago), and it occurred so long ago that he has trouble recalling what exactly was discussed. I want to know. His father had just died and he was also having other family issues, while my sister and her husband have always had a tumultuous relationship that lacks affection (other infidelities, alcohol problems, lots of dishonesty, etc.), so I know those issues were being discussed along with discussions about daily life, kids, etc. I want to know more details, but he is unable/unwilling to tell me (my heart tells me unable). He says there were no discussions about their feelings for each other but that it was more like a counseling/comfort sort of thing. He said an attraction developed on his end toward her only after the first kiss (which occurred after the three of them were together one night at their house talking about my husband's father's death and other stuff over much wine and after my sister's husband passed out on the couch - a regular occurence), but I think my sister always had an attraction to him since college days. Neither my husband nor I look back and say we were unhappy/dissatisfied with each other/having problems in our marriage at that time (and photos show just the opposite), although he says (and I know) that it was his darkest hour - he was a mess over his dad and other family issues. So, yeah, I guess that led to us having issues because of that, but not really between us ... just us dealing with those outside issues. I believe she very willingly provided a distraction for him; he wasn't the first or the last she did this with.

I have forgiven him, and we are reconciling. He is a wonderful man who treats me well, and we both feel we have a strong, solid marriage. He said that in addition to him being a coward, he lied because "it would be too hurtful" for me to know the truth, and he wanted to protect me from the pain because he had in fact learned his lesson and vowed never to put himself in the position again of having those types of talks with another female in which he could potentially make the same mistake. He says he has not since. I believe what he says, but I also would never have believed this happened (although I did sense an attraction/flirting during that period that I called him out on, which he says led to him ending his talks with her). I have no reason to believe there has been any other infidelity on his end, and there has been none on my end. He says it is �the most regrettable mistake in my life � my biggest nightmare.� We both agree now that him lying and him having any family contact with her was 100% wrong, disrespectful and insulting to me since I wasn�t able to choose for myself what I wanted the contact to be based on the full truth.

I have not talked to my sister since learning about the affair. I have written a couple letters to her expressing my desire to never to speak to her again. And that is truly how I currently feel. It's the ultimate betrayal from a sister. We have grown more and more distant over the past couple years, and I don't agree with many of her lifestyle choices (infidelities with males and females, continual attention-seeking behavior, heavy drinking, flaunting, narcissism, etc.) I've learned that she's revealed confidences I've shared with her and that she has bad mouthed me in a number of ways. She has also attempted to manipulate me as long as I can remember. I was already feeling "done" with our relationship on different levels; this new information just seals the deal. But who knows what may lie ahead in the future? As I write this, I have so much pity for her and compassion for the really bad place in life she's in and has been in for years.

While my family (other sisters) is currently understanding and supportive of my desire to severe ties with her, talk of forgiveness and healing has already begun (which bugs the hell out of me), and I fear that I will hear more and more about reconciliation as time goes on. No thanks. I don't think I could bear being in the same room with her. I find comfort in Dr. Harley's recommendation of all contact between the infidels ending for life.

Thanks for reading my story, and I would appreciate your comments. I haven't yet done a search on this forum for family type affairs, so please post links to other threads or resources about the topic if you know of any.

Last edited by DeltaDrDeceit; 04/08/10 10:11 AM.

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Delta, I am so sorry this happened to you. I want to commend you for having the good common sense to understand that it would be foolish to allow your sister back into your life.

The sad thing about your situation is that because your husband compounded the crime by lying to you and tricking you for 10 years, you have much, much more to overcome than the average adulterous affair. He lied, not to "protect you from the pain" but to protect his [censored]. At your great, great expense.

And in the bargain he allowed you to be exposed to a risky situation in which everyone knew but you. You won't be sweeping that nasty little bugger under the rug anytime soon, I am sorry to say.

How confident are you that you have the full truth now?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by DeltaDrv
While my family (other sisters) is currently understanding and supportive of my desire to severe ties with her, talk of forgiveness and healing has already begun (which bugs the hell out of me), and I fear that I will hear more and more about reconciliation as time goes on. No thanks

If she ever repents and asks your forgiveness, you might consider forgiving her. But you should NEVER be around her again. That would be harmful to your marriage. Forgiving the bank robber does mean it is wise to give him the keys to the bank.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Delta, I am so sorry this happened to you. I want to commend you for having the good common sense to understand that it would be foolish to allow your sister back into your life.

The sad thing about your situation is that because your husband compounded the crime by lying to you and tricking you for 10 years, you have much, much more to overcome than the average adulterous affair. He lied, not to "protect you from the pain" but to protect his [censored]. At your great, great expense.

And in the bargain he allowed you to be exposed to a risky situation in which everyone knew but you. You won't be sweeping that nasty little bugger under the rug anytime soon, I am sorry to say.

How confident are you that you have the full truth now?

I'm pretty darn sure that I now know the facts, but I can't say for certain, can I? I can never say anything for certain again.

I agree ... and he agrees ... that he was protecting his [censored] at my expense. He said he thought "he could have it all" -- wife, friendship, family harmony. All of them did.

Thanks for your support about me being a fool to allow my sister back in my life. I don't trust her. I don't want to start second guessing myself.


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Originally Posted by DeltaDrv
Thanks for your support about me being a fool to allow my sister back in my life. I don't trust her. I don't want to start second guessing myself.

DD, you have good instincts about all this. Dr Harley is adamant that contact with the OP [affair partner] end for life because that is the only way to ensure contact does not resume.

Resuming contact would trigger both you and your H and endanger your marriage. They had romantic feelings in the past and they would have them again if the opportunity arose. Your sister is not worth all that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Hi Delta:

Welcome to MB and the forum. I am one of the close relative affairs type. There are half a dozen of us on here, most don't post on a regular basis anymore except one who just started up.

I completely understand you and your situation. It was a double betrayal. And it may or may not have gone full PA. In my sit, it did. The one guy I trusted with my wife. . .My closest living relative, the rest of the family is gone. Sad.

Anyway, perhaps I can share a few things with you. I would hope that Jim Flint shows up. He provides excellent advice and he is part of our club that we never wanted to be in.

let's take a look at something you said:

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He said that in addition to him being a coward, he lied because "it would be too hurtful" for me to know the truth, and he wanted to protect me from the pain because he had in fact learned his lesson and vowed never to put himself in the position again of having those types of talks with another female in which he could potentially make the same mistake. He says he has not since. I believe what he says,

Depending on where he was in his head, he is either telling the truth or trying to protect his ar*se. If a woman said it, well. .. But guys have this protective thing and he could very be telling the truth, especially if he was truly remorseful and understand the cliff he almost went over. Keep in mind that he did not, at the time, have benefit of understanding Dr. Harley's open and honesty concepts.

Next step: Women have far better memory than men for stuff like this. Dr. Harley has said it himself. It seems that estrogen aids memory. He says, "Oh great!" smile Meaning he now knows why his wife can remember every transgression he ever committed.

Men don't remember all the stuff their mates do. Aren't you glad? I mean aren't you really glad? wink

Does that help? What would you like to talk about?

Larry

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Originally Posted by _Larry_
Hi Delta:

I completely understand you and your situation. It was a double betrayal. And it may or may not have gone full PA.


What is PA?

Thanks for your posts, Larry and MelodyLane.

I'm not really sure what I want to talk about. Writing out my story helps. Having a sounding board about not wanting my sister in my life again helps. Hearing others' questions and having to determine the answers helps.

That's a start ...


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And I see now that I maybe should have posted this thread in the recovery forum. Is it possible for a moderator to move it?


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Originally Posted by DeltaDrv
And I see now that I maybe should have posted this thread in the recovery forum. Is it possible for a moderator to move it?

Keep it here for a while, then move it if you need to. Recovery is a good place. I don't post there very much but I used to, back when I thought I was in recovery smile

Drop down near the bottom of the page. Use the arrow to look at forums. Click on the one that says notable posts, then go. Read the post on abbreviations, etc.

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I was reading through another thread titled "my husband had an affair with my sister" and a few points hit me.

First, one of the replies said "NC for life and your parents and siblings must be told. Family gatherings, celebrations, weddings, etc. The adults must know why the your sis and you must have NC with your WH and kids, when and if you have any. You can' let them push you to forgive and forget."

My sisters know about the affair but not my brothers or mother. My father is deceased. Do I tell them all? How should weddings and other events be handled? Should we take turns at them?

Another point: "She must become a void, a hole in the ground for you to regain your sanity. And your family must be persuaded of that singular fact."

What's the best way to persuade them? How much detail do I include about the affair?

Also, do we tell our teenage kids? It seems so cruel and unnecessary. They currently know I am not talking to my sister because she has betrayed my trust in a number of ways. They do not know details.

Last edited by DeltaDrDeceit; 04/08/10 04:14 PM.

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This is the NC letter I wrote to my sister a day after learning about the affair:

please do not ever speak to me again. please do not attempt to contact me. please do not attempt to contact (H). please stop badmouthing me to my loved ones. my wish is for all of it to end, right here and right now.

you have hurt me more than you can ever possibly comprehend. (H) takes full responsibility for his actions without any finger pointing; however i also know this: at (H)'s darkest and most vulnerable hour of his life, right after the passing of his father and during the loss of his daughter from his life, you did your thing --- that thing you do best -- with absolutely no regard for his state of mind nor any consideration for me whatsoever ... your sister, your blood. and then you allowed the utterly sick behavior to fester, and your pursued him in ways unimaginable to anyone with a hint of decency.

aside from all of that, you have betrayed my trust in so many other ways, and i am simply done with it. i am done with your lies, your deception, your infidelities, your fakery, your drama, your chaos, your manipulation ... all of it. i do not care to discuss with you any part of any thing at any time. please do not try.

please give me the space and peace in my life to move forward without you contaminating it further.

please do not ever in your life attempt to rehash any part of your relationship with (H) to any member of our family or to any of my friends. if you must, please seek a professional.

please grant to me at this time of unexplainable sorrow and in the months and years to come this one wish -- that you will close your lips and not discuss any syllable of any word concerning me or (H) with anyone in our family nor any of my friends.

just let us be.

i wish you no ill will. it's time for me to move forward without you in my life.

----------

I wrote a second letter to her -- a long, 6 page one -- that went into great detail about many issues I have with her, the ways in which she has betrayed me, and how she has shown the same destructive patterns for years. I shared this letter with my other sisters, but again, my brothers and mom know none of this.

I am told she ripped up both letters because they were "too hurtful" for her to read. I've been told that she has voiced her will not to live, how she can't imagine me not being in her life. While she apparently says the words to others that she takes responsibility for her actions, I feel she is most definitely playing the victim card (she told me in a text to leave her alone - can you imagine?), and I'm upset that two of my other three sisters have indulged her and have given her any sort of a platform to vent. I've heard the word forgiveness mentioned many times so far, but I respond that there is a difference between forgiveness and reconcilliation, and that I do not desire the latter. Besides, I told her to not contact me, so she has not even apologized. My sisters have said that time might change things between us, and they make little comments like they understand how upset she is and that they will continue to talk to her and be there for her in addition to me ... that they know what she did was wrong, but she is their sister, and they do not want to take sides because they love us both. I'm not sure if that is right or wrong of them to say to me, but I do know it hurts.

The three sisters knew about the infidelity all along; they knew there was at least one kiss ... they didn't know full details, but the cheating sister did tell one of the others that she fell in love with my husband. The cheating sister got the opportunity to tell her side way back then, but I had no idea they knew about it. My other sisters were under the assumption that I knew the full story and that the four of us decided to move on as friends years ago. I'm told none of it was ever discussed again, and they say they were surprised to learn that I didn't know everything back then.

I feel that I'm on the road to healthy recovery with my husband (more on that later), but the family dynamics are hindering my progress. I want to get this part resolved, and your guidance and insights on these issues would be appreciated.

Last edited by DeltaDrDct; 04/08/10 06:33 AM.

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NC for you your WH and children with the OW.

However being the affair is over a long time now the truth must come out.

The truth will protect you now and your kids when you are gone. Tell your mom, all of your siblings, and kids.

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Telling my mom and my kids might be one of the hardest parts of all of this. I agree that my mom needs to know. I'm not yet convinced that my kids need to know now, during these formative teenage years. I'm confused. There are probably different arguments about this.


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Originally Posted by DeltaDrDeceit
My sisters know about the affair but not my brothers or mother. My father is gone. Do I tell them all? How should weddings and other events be handled? Should we take turns at them?

Also, do we tell our teenage kids? It seems so cruel and unnecessary. They currently know I am not talking to my sister because she has betrayed my trust in a number of ways. They do not know details.

Delta, everyone should know about the affair. The more people that know, the more people to prevent a chance meeting; the more people to keep them accountable.

Your kids need to be told the truth about why they cannot be around Aunt X and why. They will find out eventually so its best that it comes from you and your H. Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies. Your sister is an enemy to your children and they need to know this. Dr. Harley is very clear about making sure the whole family knows. That goes double in your case, where the affair happened within the family.

Not telling them teaches them dishonesty and also puts them in s position where they might be around her and not know that she is an enemy to their family.


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Dr. Willard Harley, clinical psychologist, on telling the children:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.

An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
here

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Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
___________________________________
A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.


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The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.


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2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).


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My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I don't have the words to convey how to tell your kids. Others do and I leave it up to them.

I do have the words for your sisters.

Do not expect them to take sides. What you can expect is that they will honor your wishes for no contact for life with the sister who is messed up. By all means, it is ok for you to tell them that she is playing the victim card to gain sympathy, in your opinion. Simply state that you have no expectations for them to take sides. Do suggest that they be careful because said sister has proven to be untrustworthy.

While awkward, it is your desire to have no contact with that sister for life for you and your husband. They might understand better if you mention husband. In other words, you are protecting your heart and you are protecting your husband.

You cannot control your sisters anymore than you can control your wayward sister or your husband. But you can control yourself and your boundaries. Explain to your sisters that concept and indicate the only choice they have to make is the times it will be convenient for you to have a relationship with them that does not include the wayward sister.

You don't have to write a six page letter to announce this. Simple is better. A list of wayward's emotional defects will also serve no purpose. Simple is better. Same thing with mom.

My suggestions are my own and are based on what I understand to be the concepts of Dr. Harley. I too belong to the adultery/family club, a double betrayal deal and heart breaking.

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Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
While most affairs die a natural death in less than two years, there are some that take much longer to die. That's one of the primary reasons that my first rule in surviving an affair is to never see or talk to the lover again -- even if the affair seems to have died a natural death. An affair can rekindle after it seems to be over. And to guarantee complete separation between the unfaithful spouse and the lover, extraordinary precautions must be taken, such as providing radical accountability and transparency. In many cases, I've encouraged couples I've counseled to change jobs or even move to another state to help create permanent separation.

Another suggestion I make to a couple struggling to restore their marriage after one of them had an affair is to make the affair public. Everyone should know what happened -- children, relatives, friends, and especially the children and spouse of the lover -- so that the affair is exposed to the light of day. What often makes affairs appealing is that it is done in secret. Most affairs become very unappealing once everyone knows about it.

So whether an affair is a one night stand, or has been going on for years, the basic rule for ending them are the same -- extraordinary precautions to guarantee permanent separation. But I will admit that the precautions used for long-term affairs are usually more extraordinary than those used for short-term affairs. I've helped many spouses overcome affairs that have lasted over ten years, but none of them have been easy.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thanks, Melody. All of that helps.

Here's something else I read about it not being my choice that there will be no contact but rather her choice (their choice) that was made nine years ago:

"Tell them that your sister and husband made an extreme choice when they had an affair, and that results in an extreme choice on your part. This pains you, and will cause hardship and pain for the family, but it is not your choice - it is a choice thrust on you by the bad behavior of two other people. This is something you WILL DO to attempt to save your marriage, and that it means many changes for the rest of the family, but that is the way it will be. Period."


Last edited by DeltaDrDeceit; 04/08/10 09:31 AM.

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Originally Posted by DeltaDrDeceit
Telling my mom and my kids might be one of the hardest parts of all of this. I agree that my mom needs to know. I'm not yet convinced that my kids need to know now, during these formative teenage years. I'm confused. There are probably different arguments about this.

I'm pretty sure the formative years come before the teenage years.


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Delta, just think of all the elaborate excuses and lies you will have to tell to avoid her at family functions. And for what? To enable a couple of cheaters to avoid the consequences of their actions? That helps no one. They should be embarrassed. That will give them second thoughts about doing something so stupid in the future.

As far as your kids go, it does not help them one bit to be decieved about their aunt. If my aunt had decieved my mother in such a way, I would want to know so I could avoid her. They will find out eventually. Better to hear the true story from you and your H than to get it 2nd hand through gossip.


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