I forgot to mention this point, but we did discuss the NC rule as it applies to the special circumstances of affairs within families.

He said that as long as my husband and I are fine with it, he saw no problem with having my husband by my side at these major family events. For example, my husband and sister avoided each other completely at my dad's funeral four days after D-day ... that type of thing. In time, I don't think I'll have a problem with this. He recommended that we decide on a "what if" plan prior to each event.

He described the above scenario as forgiveness and distance or option 1.

Alternatively, there's option 2 whereby there's forgiveness and reconciliation. So, for example, two sisters would work through the issues and go back to spending time with each other. Surprisingly, he said some are able to reach that point. He doesn't recommend this because he feels it's presenting the marriage with an unnecessary risk, and you're really choosing to put the family relationship above the marriage.

No thanks. I'll stick to option 1.

Her annoying laugh will keep me at a distance for good <<< an example of the sand in the grease he said will always be present.

Kind of like asking the daughter who's been sexually abused by her father to reconcile with him. Your sister's betrayal is just as devastating and has forever tainted any possible relationship you might have.

Interesting. While I haven't counseled with Dr Harley, I've read the articles on the MB site. Like Melody Lane and Larry, I was under the impression that permanent NC was a stipulation. If a family member AP is just like any other AP, why are there special circumstances that allows contact? Couldn't that "addiction" that was present in the A come back if the two AP's are in close proximity. Could you ask Dr Harley if he would write an article on special circumstances for family affairs? Maybe those of us are reading more into his writings than there is.

(Like when he mentions the WS "seeing" the AP...that it could
reignite the flames from the prior A) Maybe he doesn't mean literally "seeing" the AP as in having the AP in sight vs "'seeing" as in talking or other interactions. kwim?)


Earlier in our R, I did option 1. I have always felt uncomfortable though. So now there is more NC than previously.

Last fall she ended up coming to a public event that we were at with other family members. We had left the event for a short time and went to a small restaurant to eat. After eating, she went outside with all the nieces and nephews. Me and a few other family members were waiting in line to use the ladies room. My idiot husband went just outside the door to stand in the parking lot and help with the kids. (My sister was being a real witch, yelling and screaming at the kids and customers were gawking and getting agitated. My older children and H told me so. )

However, I was so peeved. It was probably one of the most triggery moments since dday. I held my tongue, but let him have it later. I told him I didn't care how she was behaving. Let her yell at the kids. He wasn't supposed to be out there with her. And it wasn't like he was talking to her or interacting with her. But it just took me back to the times when he left me to care for the kids and multi-task my work so he could be near her. having those emotions in that moment really sucked.

Reach out and strangle me DDD, but I have to give your OWsis a pinch of credit for ignoring your h at your dad's funeral.

My sis is a real beyotch! She'll go and put on her bathing suit and wash her car 15 feet from where my husband is grilling the family meal when we go over to my folks' place. It wasn't so bad when she lived across town from them. I could go see my parents, with my H and kids, and have peace. Then she moved in with them for a couple of years. When she got her own place, it was in very close proximity to them...only a short walk from her place to theirs. That was enough for me. I said no more intentional contact.

My H and I recently (again) spoke about my dad's future funeral. (my dad is very ill.) I don't know if I want my H there or not. I guess I'll figure it out when the time comes.

I'm surely not glad you're here at MB, DDD. But I'm glad to be able to share some of my weird experience with you. I hope you have a productive and peaceful weekend.

RMJ

RMJ, please forgive my butting in (and DDD for the threadjack), but I think you are mistaken about who DDD is coaching with.

The founder of MB and the owner of this site, and the expert who wrote all the articles and Q&As, is Dr Willard F Harley.

However, the coaching at the MB coaching centre is done by his son, Steve Harley, and daughter, Dr Jennifer Harley Chalmers. Dr Harley does not coach people via the telephone coaching system. He runs the MB weekend seminars, and if you attend one of those, you then have direct email access to Dr Harley, via a private forum, for follow-up help.

That means that while Dr Harley has laid down a very specific programme with clear principles for rending an affair and restoring a marriage, it is another person (his son Steve), who interprets the advice when coaching people in their specific situations.

While we might expect a complete mirroring of Dr Harley's written advice, in practice there are occasional variations advised by Steve at the coaching centre. I don't know why this is, but I have read about this a few times on this forum. It isn't often, and I think it is in the most difficult or complicated circumstances.

Anyway, my point is that DDD is not coaching with Dr Harley.

Thanks, RMJ. I'm thankful for the opportunity to read and learn from people in a similar boat as me.

I'll ask Steve Harley about writing something on special circumstances, but my guess is that it's a case by case basis depending on where things stand in the relationships in question.

For us, my H and S have been around each other for almost 9 years without a flare up on his part toward her. Not sure about her exact feelings about him or whether it's ever been tough for her to be around him, but she's never made a pass at him since that time.

I gather that when things ended between them, they both knew how crazy wrong and gross and demented the whole escapade was and just buried it (with hopes of it going to their graves) and never going there again. I could be wrong, but that's what I hear, and that's what my gut tells me.

Now the way she's acted toward me is a different matter entirely.

Thanks for clarifying, SugarCane. I was confused myself.

It all sounds so logical.

H and I had second counseling appointments with Steve Harley today.

Aside from asking me how things were going (very good actually - lots and lots of excellent conversations between us) and bringing me up to speed on the assignments he's given my H, we discussed the beginning of H's affair. He talked about ENs and about how H allowed ENs to begin to be met from OW instead of me.

Yes, it all sounds so logical, even mathematical.

But it hurts like he!!.

My husband lied to me about the times he had sex with her when I found out it was from another family memeber and when I confronted them they still tried to lie about it. So I came home one day started packing her things because she did live with us and when he seen I believed they did have sex said it was only once but when asking both of them I got different scenerios so I knew right then it was more than once but he still denied it until I came home 2 wks later and told him you have 1 more chance to tell me how many times it really was and that's when he said it happened 4-5 times during a month period when he worked nights do I believe it ummm not really but we are in counseling and he is trying very hard I haven't talked to my sister but she was at a wedding we was at and came and sit by me I didn't say anything she had my nephew which is only 1 I played with while she had the nerve to ask what I've been up too....It's only been 2 months since D day and the affair happened 2 wks after our 2yr wedding annaversary...But I know alot of details He answers my questions I think that does help. I started a journel so I can vent in it and not on him working on the love bank ya know...But I think were going to make it...As for my sister maybe 10yrs down the line I might have something to do with her but I doubt it but we never know...My grandmother her husband cheated with her sister, my aunt her husband cheated with her sister and do you know they stayed together and love each other very much so Us women out there can do if we want to and our spouses... So about the long post trying to give you a little info...But you can make it if you want to and sorry you had to find out later bcause I know I would of liked to know all then not at another time makes ya wonder how many times he's lied makes it worse.

I feel the same way!! My husband told our kids and we have 4 boys one girl and do you know my oldest who is 16 looked at me like why are you still here and my daughter looked at him and said was you on drugs...None of the others said a word I do think they act alittle different around him and my daughter was very upset and she asked me some questions I answered and told her she needed to talk to him and she did they talked for like 3 hours him crying and saying how sorry he is I believe thats true..

As for being able to deal with the affair he had his affair 5-09 and I found out 2-10 he's had a whole year almost to deal with what he did and I explained to him my pain is fresh I haven't had time to deal with it liek him. He of course said he would do what ever it takes.

I think the family should know the kids everyone the more people you have backing you the better but don't talk to someone who is negative they will just bring u down talk to someone who has both ur interestes at heart.

NC forever is a must for WS's, BS's with the OP's. Even if it's family members.

In this case you and your WH had to skip the wedding or your sister/OW had to. No if's and's or but's.

That is not what SH told Delta.

This is what I am finding to be distrubing.....I thought that if you talk to Steve you get the same info as on this site....but I listened to him and Joyce on the Radio Link provided in another topic and the one that is up there this young engaged woman calls in for advice....she is not liking her future husbands friendship with a woman...she asks them if it's wrong for her to feel that way and they tell her she's just a jealous personality type and that it will never change! I about fell on the floor! WHAT...I thought he should have told her that her future husband wasn't wise for having a close friend of his being a woman....that is how affairs begin! This site if full of that info....all over....no friendships with the opposite sex. But both STeve & Joyce told this poor young girl it was her jealous personality that was the problem not her future husband having a close girl friendship going on.

I admit after hearing that I am rethinking about doing any phone counseling now....perhaps skip that and do either the weekend to meet the real DR.Willard Harley and get him involved or do the online which I believe gets him involved....I don't like mixed messages or people changing what they say every 5mins....I get that right now in my marriage and it's drivng me nuts...I am not gonna pay someone $200 for 50mins to do it!

Go listen to that show....just the 1st 9mins is the caller woman....you'll be shocked!

As far as I know, the radio program always features Dr. Bill Harley and his wife, Joyce.

Gemstone, first off, that WAS Dr Harley on the radio, not Steve. And secondly, I assure you that you misunderstood Dr Harley on that call. Delta listened to and confirmed what I thought all along:


What Delta says here sounds more like Dr Harley. He wouldn't tell someone to just suck it up like you suggest. But if you need to clarify this for yourself, CALL the show yourself on Monday between 3 and 4 cst and just ASK HIM.

I have been reading and listening to everything the man has said for 10 years and he is INCREDIBLY consistent. I could easier believe you misunderstood than believe he was inconsistent about this issue.

I just wanted to point out that no contact *IS* a stipulation that Dr Harley is ADAMANT about. *HE* is the author of Marriage Builders. If Steve bends those rules a bit, there is nothing I can say or do about that, but the BEST PRACTICE is always no contact as stipulated by Dr Harley.

I am not qualified to tell anyone to cut this important corner and fully intend on sticking to the concepts as outlined by DR Harley.

This is also what his son, Steve, said ... NC is best.

He only said, to paraphrase, let's be realistic. NC with my family for the rest of my life is not entirely realistic and would be unfair to me. If I'm okay with us being in her presence at certain events, we can make something work, otherwise it means I miss out on access to the rest of my own family.

I would prefer that she not be there, but aside from wishing she'd walk off a cliff, I have no control over her actions.

The less contact we have at certain major, public family events, the better off we'll be. It'll be tough but doable. We should refrain from all direct contact at those events, and we need to make sure we have a solid "what if" plan in place beforehand.

That's the message I took away.

If I don't sit well with even that indirect contact at major events, we don't have contact.

I'm relieved that we don't have a niece or nephew getting married this year.

Although I know that DrH has things written in his books and on this site that are his guidelines and should not be deviated from, it can also be said that SOME sitchs won't fit into the cookie cutter approach. I would NEVER(knowingly) advise someone to NOT follow the MB concepts as written DrH. If they call the MB coaching center and are advised by Steve or Jennifer, I would also NOT advise them to go against that. I believe that the coaching center listens to what the sitch is and they tailor the PLANS for them.

Thank you for being so O&H with us DDD.

"let's be realistic. NC with my family for the rest of my life is not entirely realistic and would be unfair to me. If I'm okay with us being in her presence at certain events, we can make something work, otherwise it means I miss out on access to the rest of my own family."

It's not NC with the whole family, it's NC with the OP.

The parents and siblings need to know about the affair and the need for NC. They do not have to cut out the OP. Just rotating invitations puts them in the fairest place. They are not taking sides. However to never provide the NC for half of the family gatherings shows how selfish they are.

Who would want to spend time with such selfish family?

An update on where I am emotionally:

I realized over the weekend that I've no longer been feeling the pangs of pain in my gut that I'd been having for weeks.

I've slept through the night a few times in the past week.

Simple but huge facts of life at the moment.

The weekend before last, my mom came to spend the weekend with us. It felt very comforting to have her here and have her love and support. She stayed with our kids for a couple days while I went away with my H one night; we went out to dinner and took a long walk through the city. We've been going on a ton of long walks lately - walking and talking and hugging and kissing. It's been nice.

H travels throughout our state for work, and it's been good to tag along with him a little more lately - more talking and bonding, having lunch together, taking a break to do something fun in whatever town we're in.

This weekend included more walks with our dog and a great night Saturday night when we built a fire in our backyard, turned up the music and drank a bunch of beers. I'm not much of a drinker (at all), but I told him I just felt like getting drunk. So we sang and laughed and reminisced.

All of that has helped easy my pain.

We've always enjoyed spending time together. We communicate well, have fun, joke around. That's why this whole thing has been such a shock ... that his A was with my sister for sure, but even more so, that he had an A at all. It's just so not him; In 21 years, I can't even say I've caught him looking lustfully at other women. He's a fun flirt, but so am I. We've talked about how we've turned away from being fun flirts in the past couple years and how stupid and pointless and potentially dangerous those "innocent" behaviors can be.

It hasn't all been good. Last week I decided it was time to pull out our videos from 2001. We're guilty of taking video then putting it away forever except for a few videos that we pull out from time to time like our kids' birthday videos.

Well, what I saw from that summer, 2001 when he was in his A was so repulsive. My H and S flirting with each other ... on camera. My S TOTALLY offering up her sexuality to my H and him being enticed by it ... on MY family video. Gross, gross, gross. I was sick for a full day last week. But it's proof and evidence of what occurred, and it completely affirmed my assumption about how things happened between them.

In my mind, I pictured this giddy, school boy physical attraction and urge toward this temptress of a woman. And sure enough, it was all there for me to see in full color video.

Spot on.

Right in front of me. Right in front of my BIL.

He was an absolute skanky scoundrel. But OMG she is an out of control skank. Nasty. And she kept doing this with other guys ... for years and years.

So I wonder ... how could I have been in so much denial?

How could I not have seen it?

I only sensed the flirtation one time on a camping trip, like maybe for 10 minutes. And I thought it was pretty innocent flirtation at that point. I told my H about it the next day.

Turns out that event I witnessed was toward end of their A. They had had sex twice, the first time was two months before the camping trip and the second time was a couple later, or about a 5-6 weeks before the camping trip. (Both times I was out of town for a week.)

Anyway, after I told H about how I didn't like their flirtation during the camping trip that Sunday on our way home, he ended things with her about a week and a half later.

For the moment, I feel like my anger toward my husband is gone. Who knows when it'll pop up again. (The spitting anger I have toward my S is still huge, though ... not good.)

I was so furious and went ballistic after seeing those videos, and then I talked to Steve Harley who said my anger is understandable but it's up to me to decide how I want to treat the most precious person in my life.

He is right. It's tough, but he is right.

That might be how we proceed.

I think it'll be up to me and that my family would respect my wishes, whatever they may be.