I accidentally just pasted the following into my husband's thread instead of mine. I will not post in his thread ... just a mistake.

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Oh, how I love this place. I read through my husband's thread and am thankful for both the advice and the lashing he's receiving. It is very much deserved.

H set up an appt. with the Harleys for Monday morning.

I am taking good care of me. Friends are helping. I've never taken antidepressant/anxiety meds and would prefer not to start, but I'm not too proud to take them at some point if necessary. My pain is real and I don't feel I need to dull it right now.

I asked H to leave last night, and he did. We will be living apart for at least a while.

I think he FINALLY gets it. He was on his knees yesterday revealing all, and he most definitely needed to get to that rock bottom place.

I think there was something about asking him to put all the details of his story in writing that spurred him to tell the whole truth. (I think it's the whole truth ... of course I can't be certain, can I?) I wish I would've asked him to put it in writing 9 yrs ago. I think that's a good lesson for others.

Too late for us? idunno. Yet to be determined.

Oh my goodness, Pep! Your spoonfeeding is EXACTLY how we have done MB at our house. I always wondered if we might have R more, better, faster if DH was on board but so far so good.

End of TJ

God's Blessings,

Say

Now is a great time to focus on yourself and let out all your emotions. My WW will take a stick or a bat and smack the heck out of her pillow every once in a while because of stress from marriage, kids, and work. I've never done it, it makes me feel silly, but try it out. Pound out your pain if your blood starts to boil.

You can also make some life changing plans, read up on self help books, from marriage to diets and exercise.

Find what may have triggered your husband and remove them from your lives. Things like ENs not being met, and your sister (sorry, but contact will have to end) have to go. Find what your husband can do to help you build trust in him again, and make a list of those things, no matter how extensive it is. Share it with him and dicuss those things that he has a tough time agreeing to.

Take care of yourself, and try to be positive that things in the future will be better, no matter what the outcome is.

I like this idea and your other suggestions, too. I think I'll line up a couple spa treatments since they just so happen to be running a special.

I went out with a girlfriend tonight for drinks and dinner. Lots of needed laughs.

I can't really explain this sense of peace and calm I've had since yesterday's revelation. I'm pretty sure I was nervous in the back of my mind that my husband was holding back his emotions because he was falling in love back then. But as soon as I learned he was instead holding back his sexual rendezvous (as grotesque as they are), I knew that I knew in the core of my soul that it wasn't about love at all. It was a dirty, rotten primal urge thing. He never told me he needed space. He never told me ILYBINILWY.

Strange how horrid things hit you in unexpected ways.

Anyway, to throw a little humor into our Jerry Springer drama, I told my friend tonight that Shawn King (Larry King's wife) should give me a call to chat since, as you may have heard in the news, we apparently share a similar story. I ended up posting this comment on my facebook page. "Yo, Shawn, babe ... call me!"

H is already speaking MB lingo. Funny. He's reading the material for sure.

I've never heard him anywhere close to this broken before. This site and the information is a God send to him. Thank you all for the support!

He's looking so forward to speaking with Dr. Harley Monday morning.

OW/S tried calling H's cell a few times after I told BIL that sex occurred. H didn't answer the calls but informed me when they happened. I called my BIL to inform him, and while he said he assures me she won't be contacting him again, he gave me all sorts of psycho babble in her defense, so I really don't need to speak to him anymore, either.

H is preparing NC letter to OW/SIL and apology letter to BIL for my review.

Delta:


Good analysis and good show. He sounds as if he has been gas lighting himself, or at least allowing it.

It sounds as if your husband reached bottom and is climbing to find his grownup state. That may turn out to be a very good thing.

Larry

Larry, BIL is so very gas lighted. It's a mystery. Perhaps because of his own adultery, former drug and alcohol addictions, career failures and other crapola. He's so quick to forgive and sweep it all under the rug. Then the same sick behaviors happen over and over and over.

He tried to tell me today that yes, there's been a little sibling rivalry from my POS S directed at me over the last 5 or 6 years.

A little?

Vomit.

She screwed my husband. 9 yrs ago. She wanted to take him and my life away from me. Does that not count? I feel abused a little each time I've ever spoken to him about my S because he defends her so blindly based on the fact that she's such a lost soul.

She told him that the core of why she had this A and others is because of abandonment issues. Give me a freaking break. Get over yourself already and do the right thing.

He'll no longer have a platform with me.

Sorry ... just had to vent. I know he/they are no longer important to my life, and they never need to be again. Whew!

In my H's thread, there's discussion about whether to ask for forgiveness. A day after I learned about the A, my BIL implied in an email that I should forgive because he has forgiven fully.

I think it's totally and absolutely selfish, disrespectful and shameful to ask for forgiveness or to encourage another person to forgive. Forgiveness is up to each person individually. All each of us can do is apologize for our mistakes and crimes, learn from them and repent. The rest is not up to us.

I recently merged a few quotes on forgiveness to summarize my view:

"We forgive freely or we do not really forgive at all. You can forgive someone almost anything. But you cannot tolerate everything. We don't have to tolerate what people do just because we forgive them for doing it. Forgiving heals us personally. To tolerate everything only hurts us all in the long run. Forgiving doesn't mean being passive and staying in a job or a relationship that clearly doesn't work for you. It is important that you are clear about your boundaries. If you are willing to allow unacceptable behavior again and again in the name of 'forgiveness,' you are more than likely using 'forgiveness' as an excuse not to take responsibility for taking care of yourself or as a way to avoid making changes."

Absolutely, forgiveness is done freely and is truly a gift to self. In forgiving, I am set free. In forgiving, I understand that I didn't do the action that caused the pain. Forgiveness places the responsibility to repair the damage on the offending party. It would be an injustice to both to myself and the individual who hurt me if I didn't hold that person responsible for his/her actions.

To "forgive" and forget enables continued destructive behavior by the offending party towards me and others. It does convey tolerance to the offender and gives the impression that we condone people hurting us.

I don't have to tolerate destructive behavior by others. I have the right to expect restitution and change. If the offending party refuses to give that, it is wise to remove myself from further harm by not allowing the offending party to remain in my life .

Also, I have come to realize that with certain situations in life, the damage can be so intense that even though I forgive and the offending party makes restitution and changes, it is still in my best interest to move forward without that individual in my life. So this is another possible scenario with forgiveness.


As you go through MB (if you choose to do so), you'll learn the weaknesses in your M currently and at the time of his A. You'll learn how to build a new, better M.

But always remember this, you were not responsible for his A. He chose that destructive path for himself. I found that to be helpful in my forgiveness of my spouse for his behavior. It lifted the burden off of me and rightfully placed it onto him.

From C S Lewis:As long as we're looking at quotes about the subject of forgiveness...

DDD,

Maybe you just aren't in the place to forgive yet.

I would just say to you that a time may come that YOU will want to forgive him.

Leave yourself room to make that decision. It just may creep up on you.



SB

This is spot on. I don't see how you can be anywhere near forgiveness yet, DDD. You have to know what really happened and it's full impact on you. Then there's working through the stages of grief through the pain and loss. Sometimes as we work through those stages, we have a moment that comes to us and we forgive. Sometimes we go through the stages of grief, reach acceptance and still don't experience a moment of desire to forgive.

Only you can know if and when that time comes. In that moment, the choice to forgive or not will be yours. People shouldn't be telling you to forgive at this early stage. That would be so wrong.

RMJ is right about forgiving.


I had a childhood experience that took me through many stages of grief.

That anger phase was the longest, I think. It overlapped the denial phase.

Anyway.


My life came full circle when I realized that, for me, forgiveness was the key to my freedom.



This - by no means - meant that I forgot one single thing. It also does not mean that the people involved are a part of my life.


And, no, forgiveness isn's something that you need to focus on right now. Your heart is not there.


Your life is shaken, and you need to understand what has happened.


You cannot forgive what you do not understand, what you don't even have the truth of yet.



That wouldn't make sense.


Ignore those who plead for forgiveness at this point.


And if your husband wants forgiveness, there is actually a nice book on it - Five Steps to Forgiveness.

Maybe he needs to do some reading to understand what that might take. And, that you are not obligated to even consider it.


SB

H is definitely not asking for me to forgive.

I think it's an excellent sign that your H is making his apologies and has written a NC letter.

It's also positive that he hasn't asked for forgiveness yet. That should come in time. For him to ask forgiveness before you both know the truth of the A (not just the physical details, but the meaning of it too) would make him seem insincere.

I hope once he does work through his end of the process he asks for forgiveness.

My husband did. He said something along the lines of, "I hadn't understood the full impact of my choices on you. I am sorry I hurt you the way I did. I hope that one day, in your heart, you will be able to forgive me. In the meantime, I want you to know that I will do all in my power to help you move forward. Even if it means you choose not to have me in your life, I will still help you if or when you need it."

He backed it up with the actions to show he was sincere. I think it made it easier to forgive when he did that.

I don't recall my H ever asking for forgiveness. I think he knew he didn't deserve it. He apologized, he expressed remorse, he showed repentance.

I don't recall a specific request for me to forgive him. He did ask if we could stay together, if I would allow him the chance to try to make things right. But that specific request, to forgive him, I don't think he said those words. Maybe he did.

I have forgiven him. To forget the events? That is a whole 'nuther thing.

Here are some ramblings about what I've garnered over the last few days about why H entered A. This is my take on it; he can read this, and we'll discuss any skewed views I may have:

-Lust, attraction, temptation, excitement, thrill of forbidden fruit and playing with fire, a natural high. Once this fizzled, the A slowly fizzled, and he called it off. This is the part that was missing for me before he told me A involved sex. Once he told me, the story clicked better. It all made more sense. A-ha.

-Escape from and avoidance of the pain and depression he was facing from father's death and issues with his daughter. Although in reality, he still faced the same pain during and after A.

-Ego boost, feeling pursued, feeling affirmation, feeling cared about. (<< totally disingenuous fraud, by the way!)

-OPPORTUNITY - I was gone from home a few times.


Of course I'm not to blame for his A, but here are some truths during that time that I've realized about myself:

- I was away from home for a few different events including one 4-day period and two one-week periods.

- For about a month prior to start of A, I was engrossed with helping my best friend cope with her H leaving her. My husband needed me, and I was not entirely there for him because I was wrapped up with her.

- I now remember three different incidents that directly correlate with the start of his A and the two times he had sex with OW when I got too close to other men. All three incidents involved drinking and dancing and me being tempted to cheat (kiss) but declining.

WOW. I had totally forgotten (bottled?) those encounters until we pulled out our credit card records, his mileage records and other documents and began to piece together the timeline from that summer.

We no longer have cell phone records, but knowing all I know now, that phone info is not as important to me anymore. It no longer bothers me like it did that I don't know the frequency, length, or depth of their talks. It was what it was. He's explained the gist of their discussions, and it totally jives with me. I have the "luxury" of knowing WH and OW and have a good idea about how their conversations went.

Over the past couple days we've been learning a lot about what each other was feeling and experiencing during that time.

Neither of us recall arguing or being upset with one another. No big arguments or upsets. But for various reasons, we were both enjoying attention from other people. And we never told each other any of it.

The difference, of course, is that he cheated and crossed A LOT of boundaries. I did not.

Here's something I read that spoke to me about the "why" behind his A:

An emotionally retarded man may go for a time without feeling pleasure, pain, or anything else, until a strange woman jerks him back into awareness of something intense enough for him to feel it�perhaps sexual fireworks, or the boyish heroics of rescuing her, or perhaps just fascination with her constantly changing moods and never-ending emotional crises.

What he needs is not a crazier woman to sacrifice his life for, but treatment for his depression. However, since the best home remedies for depression are sex, exercise, joy, and triumph, the dangerous damsel may be providing one or more of them in a big enough dose to make him feel a lot better. He may feel pretty good until he gets the bill, and sees how much of his life and the lives of his loved ones this treatment is costing.

A man, especially a philandering man, may feel comfortable having sex with a woman if it is clear that he is not in love with her. Even when a man understands that a rule has been broken and he expects consequences of some sort, he routinely underestimates the extent and range and duration of the reactions to his betrayal.

Men may agree that the sex is wrong, but may believe that the lying is a noble effort to protect the family. A man may reason that outside sex is wrong because there is a rule against it, without understanding that his lying establishes an adversarial relationship with his mate and is the greater offense. Men are often surprised at the intensity of their betrayed mate's anger, and then even more surprised when she is willing to take him back. Men rarely appreciate the devastating long-range impact of their infidelities, or even their divorces, on their children.

Here are some ramblings about what I've garnered over the last few days about why H entered A. This is my take on it; he can read this, and we'll discuss any skewed views I may have:

-Lust, attraction, temptation, excitement, thrill of forbidden fruit and playing with fire, a natural high. Very familiar - my husband said very similar things about his affair. Once this fizzled, the A slowly fizzled, and he called it off. This is the part that was missing for me before he told me A involved sex. Once he told me, the story clicked better. It all made more sense. A-ha.

-Escape from and avoidance of the pain and depression he was facing from father's death and issues with his daughter. Although in reality, he still faced the same pain during and after A. This has a ring of truth to it. Your point of fact that he would face it, with or without the affair, is valid. The affair has a flavor of escapism to it.

-Ego boost, feeling pursued, feeling affirmation, feeling cared about. (<< totally disingenuous fraud, by the way!) Ego-centric and selfish, valid points. Your sister's part in it was very ego-centric as well, with her motivations MUCH different.

-OPPORTUNITY - I was gone from home a few times. Opportunity always plays a part in sin.


Of course I'm not to blame for his A, but here are some truths during that time that I've realized about myself:

- I was away from home for a few different events including one 4-day period and two one-week periods. The opportunity part.

- For about a month prior to start of A, I was engrossed with helping my best friend cope with her H leaving her. My husband needed me, and I was not entirely there for him because I was wrapped up with her. This did open up the opportunity some, and reduced some of the time with your H. It did also come at a critical time, when your H did need you, so there is that factor involved. Good observation.

- I now remember three different incidents that directly correlate with the start of his A and the two times he had sex with OW when I got too close to other men. All three incidents involved drinking and dancing and me being tempted to cheat (kiss) but declining. What I wonder about is whether or not you sensed infidelity happening during this time between your husband and sister. It is possible that your "radar" had already picked up on the problem in your marriage, and your acting out in this way was a reaction to it. Something to consider. Another good observation on your part.

WOW. I had totally forgotten (bottled?) those encounters until we pulled out our credit card records, his mileage records and other documents and began to piece together the timeline from that summer. This is an excellent way to find anchor events. I highly recommend this.

We've been learning a lot about what each other was feeling and experiencing during that time.

Neither of us recall arguing or being upset with one another. No big arguments or upsets. But for various reasons, we were both enjoying attention from other people. And we never told each other any of it.

The difference, of course, is that he cheated and crossed A LOT of boundaries. I did not.