DDD,

I've re-read your thread. Are you still struggling with how to have handle family events the OWsis is also invited to?

Way back in April, I wrote this to you:
"However, you're going to have to do some major soul searching with regards to the family issue and what you expect from a spouse. We don't expect our spouses to cheat. Unfortunately,it happens. Fortunately, the affair can stop, the wayward spouse can become a F(former)WS,and the M reconciled without the affair remaining in the background. There is closure to the A.

But with family AP's,there isn't closure. It's like it gets tabled. The BS has to compartmentalize because we don't have our spouse with us at family events and we know why. :**( Makes it difficult to permanently heal because it's painful...like a very tender scar.

If not having his support during family funerals/illness or not having him at your side to share in joyful events like weddings, new babies,birthdays, baptisms,reunions, etc is absolutely unacceptable to you,then don't waste another day, get a D. I say this so bluntly because if this is a deal breaker for you,you won't be able to recover your marriage."


Your reply was:
"It is a deal breaker for me.
So is that it? In your opinion, divorce is our only solution?"

You've come along way since then, but that fundamental issue is one that you are still facing today. There has to be permanent NC between FWH and OWsis. Are you at the point in R where your husband's absence at family events that you feel you must absolutely attend is no longer a deal breaker?

I empathize with you regarding your sister. But to move forward, you'll have to determine a few things. Does having to miss certain family events or going to family events alone close the love bank? Just having to make this choice can make the M irreconcilable for some BS. Also, if you choose to go to the family events, will having C with OW close the love bank?

Neak and SB have eloquently written the challenges of R with a familial AP. They are spot-on.

In my perspective, it seems that BW with familial AP's are less likely to make permanent NC with family. Instead, there is a juggle to remain connected with our families. In an ideal world, BW should be able to walk away from their kin. But that is a lot to ask. Women's lives, even in this society where we have more independence than other cultures, are about family. To totally disconnect from our families which by society's standard, is our first means of support, to reconcile a relationship with a man who betrayed us in the most horrible way, seems counter intuitive. It feels like it leaves us on our own, w/o support. (And is some cases it does)

I think that some people in your family believe you want them to take sides. (not saying that you are) From their perspective, the A was along time ago, and "nothing" happened since, so you may appear hyper vigilant to them . They don't understand EP.

But like Neak and SB said, you are in control of you. If you want any chance of your M making it out alive, you will have to figure out what works for you in handling family scenarios and then set the boundaries with your family.

It will mean that there is NC between OWsis and FWH, with no more explanations for it to those who know the situation. Explanations to those that already know suggest that you aren't at peace with your decision and therefore your position is negotiable. Place in your mind that with family members who won't respect NC, it's their problem.

With OWsis, only you can determine if seeing her sets your M back. In the short run, it's probably best that you have NC with her until you can determine if C closes the love bank or puts it in the red. (Although I feel that if there's a death, still be a part of the grief process -funeral/viewing-even if avoiding her is impossible.) Anything else, strict NC for a good while sends the message to her and family that you are serious about your stance. Permanent NC between BS and AP would be ideal, but with family, it's impractical at times.

If you can take the next year, place family events aside and focus rebuilding your M, then you will be in the best position of strength in future dealings with family. Family members will respect your boundaries and be more likely to accommodate them if they want you to be a part of their lives. imho

Regardless of whether I remain married to my current H, am single or am married to another man, I would still maintain NC with my ex-S.

I would still face the same issues regarding family events either which way. NC is not tied to forgiveness, and it is also not tied to my marital status.

H and I are together. We plan to remain together. We will face the future together and deal with the highs and lows. Together.

We will attend events together and will only attend events where ex-S is not present (with the possible exception of funerals ... still need to discuss this with each other and with SH).


Thankfully, I have not and don't foresee having to totally disconnect from my family. Far from it. They have invited us on vacation and have invited us to spend other time with them. They call us. With the exception of one sister, they have been very, very supportive.

I have been discussing hypotheticals on this forum the same way I did with Dr. H ... how to deal with this or that situation that might come up in the future, such as a niece's wedding. It helps to be proactive and think through how to best handle possible scenarios before they actually occur.

So nobody in my family thinks I'm asking them to take sides because there hasn't been an event ... yet. I'm figuring out how to best approach or respond to potential future scenarios so that we do it most effectively.

I do appreciate all the insight from many of you. It helps.


A flash of good news:
Turns out none of this probably needs to be addressed for a couple years -- if at all -- because the niece who's getting married in the spring is likely going with a very small wedding on the beach with immediate family only (sister's family) and a couple close friends.

"NC is not tied to forgiveness, and it is also not tied to my marital status"



Truer words have not been spoken.



Remember this for your own sanity, DDD. I have tried so hard to explain this to my niece, but unfortunately the family dynamics in her life are just too bizarre to explain.

So she caves in.


Hang on to your values. Those of any worth will stand by you.

The others know where they can go.


SB

For the first several years, you are so devastated that, even if you saw your sis, the damage it did would probably feel lost in the greater hurt. When your guts are hanging out, you probably won't notice that you stepped on a nail.

But once your guts are put back together and heal, stepping on a nail (especially over and over again) will not only hurt dreadfully, but the risk of infection is very high.

No BS can judge from their early R feelings, whether the BS having contact with OP will be damaging. BUT a wise BS will take the word of the many BS who have gone before, and realize that NC is not only essential for the FWS, but the BS as well.

Complete healing will only occur when both parties have NC, and good for you for making that stand early on!

A discussion in another thread about establishing boundaries and extraordinary precautions made me think of some things my H did right after his A.

Of course, he did something majorly wrong, as Dr. Harley explains here:


My H should have been honest with me and told me about his A.

But I look back and see that he did establish new boundaries following his A.

- He no longer went to lunch with any of the ladies in his office, not even with other guys from the office, unless it was for a special office-wide lunch like Secretary's Day. I didn't see anything wrong with him having lunch with them (especially since they're older ladies) and would tell him I thought his position was silly. He said it didn't matter; he didn't think it was appropriate for a married man to dine with other women.

- My friend reminded me of a few times when we were around OWsister and my husband would say something like "I'm running up to the store. Does anyone need anything?" and OWsister would say "I'll go with you," but then H would say "you can go ahead, and I'll stay here."

- Sometimes when we were out with friends, I'd want to call it a night before he would, so I'd tell him to stay out without me. I really didn't mind, and I'd try to encourage him to stay out and enjoy himself. But he wouldn't. He'd always come home with me.

These are a few examples I can look back on and know that he was sincere about changing his ways/true repentance following his A.

He didn't do everything right, of course, because he allowed me to stay in contact with OWsister.

But these boundaries he established, tangible evidence I can look back on, made me more apt to accept his apology and know in my heart his sorrow was sincere. He proved it to me, and I never had to ask for it.

Something for wayward spouses to think about.

You are pretty observant. Your WH wanted to cut his ties, and cut his losses.

OWSister wanted MORE. And your WH knew it. Sounds like he made things clear to her that he was done, but she worked to keep him sniffing around, hoping she could keep him ensnared.



I think it's good that you see this. He was trying back then to fix things - in the wrong way - but at least trying.


His instinct was to escape her.


And cling to you. And not put himself in that position anymore.



That is a start, even though you didn't get the honesty or confession at the time.



I want to just smack your Xsister, FWIW. Whenever I encounter this type of affair, it just gets me angry.

Yep. I do get mad every now and then. Mostly at stuff like this.


And not getting enough ice cream. I get mad about that, too.


Hang in there, DDD. You have lots going in your favor.


SB

I just emailed the following letter to MB Radio and will wait to hear back, but I'm hopeful some of you have words of wisdom, too.


As I wrote this it dawned on me that there may be a good book someone could suggest for children of divorce ... effective ways to process the pain and anger.

Anyone?

Surprised that I haven't gotten any responses.

Haven't any of your kids, especially teenage or adult children, struggled with healing from their mom or dad's affair?

Please let me know if I should post this in a different section of the forum.

Joyce emailed me to say they're answering my letter on today's MB Radio program.

I'd like to remind everyone here about what a tremendous gift MB Radio is.

At no cost, you can email your question or concern to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com, and Dr. Harley and his wife, Joyce, will address your issue on air. Then you can follow up with Joyce and Dr. Harley through email afterward.

I've done this a couple times, most recently in regard to my daughter's continued resentment about her dad's A. (letter above)

Dr. Harley addressed the issue on air, followed up with an email exchange, offered to speak to our daughter privately, and then spoke to my H and I afterward. This has helped a great deal, and our daughter will continue to speak to Dr. Harley on the phone to hopefully help her work out some things.

I'm so very grateful for this entire organization!

DrH, Mrs H and MB are AMAZING. This is great to hear Delta. I am so happy for you.

This is a great reminder - thanks, Delta!

I wish there was an app for computers that automatically starts the Radio Show every day...

Notable post.
Very, very important.
~Pep~

Regarding our daughter's resentment about her dad's A, some people may use this as an example of why children should not be told about their parent's A.

Wrong.

Both our teenagers have thanked us for caring enough about them to speak honestly and openly about reality. It's their reality, too.

Your sister is a REAL piece of work. Your family defending her is expected. Personally, I'd disown my brother/sister if she betrayed me or our other siblings in this way. Blood doesn't do this to each other!

Delta,
It has taken me all week to read your entire thread. There were many times in my reading that I wanted to respond but didn't because it was an older post and has already been responded to.

I do, however, want to tell you how wonderfully I think you have dealt with all of this. You have been amazing, taking the upper road, your attitude is A+.

I have a multifaceted perspective to family affairs because...
When I was about five years old my mom told my older sisters they had to take me with them when they went downtown or they couldn't go...they did not want to take their younger sister so that started things off on the wrong foot to start with. They were six, eight, and ten years older than me. I was being a brat, pestering them and all of a sudden they erupted into: "You're not even our sister! Our mother married your dad so we have different fathers (our fathers are brothers)..." I can't remember what all they said except they also told me that their grandmother (whom I'd never seen even though she lived in the same town) used to take them for a week or two in the summer until I came along and then there was no more contact with the extended family.

This led to my feeling it was all MY fault, being as it all happened when I came along.

I came home and threw it all out there at my mom, expecting her to tell my sisters, "Oh why would you girls tell her such a thing!" Instead she was kind of like, "Yeah? Well?" I was shocked. It was a turning point in my life. My uncle (their dad) used to come visit on Sundays, but he really didn't spend time with my sisters, instead he had coffee with my dad for an hour or two. My dad raised and paid for all of us.

For most of my life, my sisters have always been my sisters with no differentiation between us. They were naturally closer because they were closer in age and shared a large bedroom. I used to feel left out because they had matching windows, matching closets, matching beds, everything, lined up like the three bears. I learned years later that they felt a little jealous of me because I had a room to myself.
Today my sisters and I are extremely close. We are all different, married different, different religious choices and political views. None of that gets in the way of our relationship. My parents had another child and eventually adopted another...my oldest sister's son (she was critically injured in a car accident so couldn't raise him herself).

All of that is just background for this:
When I was growing up, we were never invited to any family get togethers. We attended no holiday functions, no funerals or weddings, nothing. I did not know my cousin until I met her in high school. I did not know my grandmother until I was grown and lived nearby...then I used to stop in and see her once in a while. But I grew up without extended family. We were pretty much shunned on my mom's side as well, seeing family only on rare occasions. I knew and felt my family was "not normal". I can't describe the isolation that is felt when you have a family that wants nothing to do with you because of your parent's sins. Alas but parent's sins are visited on the youth, the Bible even says so...and I believe the Bible is just stating it matter of factly, that kids do pay the consequences of their parents' wrongs.

There is no escaping the boomerang effects that sin has even years down the road, even on innocent parties. I often wish us kids could have been included in some things to some extent, but that wasn't the case.

When my sisters' dad (my uncle) passed away, they were not notified or even invited to his funeral. I can't tell you how angry that makes me! They visited him in his nursing home, bought him glasses, even though he'd never been there for them, never attended their weddings or made much attempt to be in their lives. How the family handled this was wrong. If anyone should have been ostracized it should have been my mom. She not only had an affair with my dad while married to his brother (resulting in me) but we learned years later that she'd had at least one other affair (perhaps resulting in my oldest sister).

Today my mother is certifiably nuts. She is guilt ridden and paranoid. I'm not suggesting her sin drove her crazy, but who knows how much part it played in her mental outcome. She is 89 and never been happy. None of us enjoy her company and only call her or see her because...why? I don't know, she's our mother. Not a good mother. But what we got stuck with. She's old and we're trying to be there for her as much as we can tolerate until the day she dies...but there is no relationship, not really, she doesn't really know any of us. She is a sad pathetic old person who is living out the consequences of her youth. And my father has been dead for 29 years now. My uncle, he's been gone for years too. None of them play a huge role in our lives, but my sisters and I and my brother? We love each other and are close. We will always have a strong bond.

I find what your sister did to you and your family to be deplorable. I wish your husband could have seen the consequences before he acted but alas, so many who stray think "what they don't know won't hurt them"...or they just don't even think at all.

You are recovering your marriage. I do think it possible for the cousins to remain in contact at neutral places so long as they agree not to discuss parents. I think your sisters also need to not bring up your Xsis to you. I agree with the NC, as painful as it is, as hard as it is. I am the living result of the effects NC has had on me growing up and I wish there could have been something easier on us kids, but it is what it is. At least us kids are close.

It's been a long time since I've posted, so I wanted to check in. Life is really good.

I previously had a lot of anxiety about how we'd keep NC when there were family weddings and funerals. Well, we had our first family wedding recently, and I attended with my daughter. My husband and son stayed home and so did my exS/OW and her husband and son. She was basically strong armed into not attending by other family members. She has blubbered on and on to them about how she'll never get to attend family functions, and a couple of our sisters have simply told her that she should have thought about that sooner and these are the consequences of her actions.

Her daughter attended the wedding, and that was fine and comfortable because she is respectful to me. Our daughter remains very close with their daughter; they don't discuss their parents or the A. It's so great that they could spend this special three days with each other and their other cousins.

I'm here to tell you that if we can maintain NC within our family, anyone can maintain NC. It will be tricky when it comes time for a funeral, but there's simply no benefit for us to be in her presence and it's simply not worth it. In the past year, exS/OW has tried texting me, doing a couple weird things on social media to reach out to me, given family members big guilt trips when they've chosen to spend time with us and just recently "liked" and commented on a bunch of photos of our daughter from the wedding. Even though we're blocked from seeing any of that, family members jumped in to tell her to back off. Nope, we definitely don't need her headaches and craziness and pushiness in our lives for any reason.

My husband and I are truly doing wonderfully following MB principles! And our daughter is back to laughing with, caring about, respecting and spending quality time with her dad. Things are really, really good. I have a happy family.

Thanks for the update, Delta!! I am so happy for you. Dr Harley mentioned your case last week on the radio. He was saying how it doesn't matter what the relationship is to the affair partner, no contact must be observed. He added that even you were able to do this even though it is very difficult.

Thank you so much for the update Delta. We have a poster where the DD17 is still very angry with her Wayward mom and I link your story.

Thank you for being a MB example (not that you would've preferred to be a different example).

I am so very thankful that this need I had to defend myself is long gone. It was a battle within myself, and it's over.