Are you passionately IN LOVE? I don't believe you are. If you were, this wouldn't be a "job" to you. And this is the basic problem. You are really not in love and your H knows it. But that will not change until you a) are honest about it and b) use this program properly to restore romantic love.

I wouldn't bother with marriage counseling or reading any books other than Marriage Builders. The difference between MB and other programs is that MB really does work. Other programs do not. The goal of MB is to restore romantic love in your marriage. Other programs don't believe that is even possible.

Check this out: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts
and Restore Love to Your Marriage

I have a better idea. Read up on this program and then go to him with radical honesty and a PLAN in hand to restore the love in your marriage. We can help you with that. But it won't just happen by accident or by just groping around in the dark and hoping for the best. Hope is not a plan. You need a REAL PLAN.

Honesty is the first step. From reading your posts, i don't believe you are in love with him. If you were, it wouldn't be work to meet his needs. Avoiding that true fact is part of your problem. Facing it honestly is the first step towards a solution.

Well, who can blame him. MC's are pretty much worthless. I suspect they flunked out of their first choice of careers.

How about trying to bring MB concepts to him, a little at a time? Start with Radical Honesty. Explain to him that you think the two of you are missing out on a huge opportunity to really make your M better, stronger and more loving.

Is he at least willing to listen to that? Point out to him that doing nothing appears to be returning nothing.

Does he agree that your M needs improvement? Is he willing to get on board with attempting to improve your M?

H doesn't want to do any work on our marriage. He said once that I was the one who needed to do the work to fix things. Unfortunately I didn't work as hard as I was thinking I was. Right now he is done. He hasn't said the word divorce but wants to separate now and be friends. He doesn't think we should be married though. I have tried to bring the MB concepts in to our marriage but H won't read the books I've bought from here and doesn't want to try the ideas. He had said he wanted us to work out but he can't bury what happened. He just wants it to go away. He doesn't believe on working at something that should just be there.

I want to have that passionate love with H. We have had it before, but lately we have fallen out of being "in love". That doesn't mean I am going to revert to my past thinking and go have another A. That thought repulses me. I want to have that passion and energy we had. I sometimes don't know what to do though. Things get in the way and unfortunately I have let them. H doesn't want any physical contact now, his body language is apparent and he stated he wants to separate.

Could you swing some coaching sessions with Steve Harley? Steve Harley could tell you what to say to him to persuade him to get on the phone with him. Once he gets him on the phone he might be able to persuade him to try this program.

Your H's view that he shouldn't have to work on the marriage is a freeloaders mentality, btw. It is like a home owner who refuses to do anything to take care of his house. Pretty soon the house falls down around him.

Is your H planning on moving in the back bedroom and carrying on affairs? That is usually what people do when they say want to "separate" and then don't separate. I would not agree to this fake "separation" if I were you. I would only agree to work on the marriage and nothing less. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for a life of hell while he moves into the guest room and then runs around like a single man.

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.


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I would love to have a coaching session, but our finances are very tight right now and I dont have the extra money. If I can get it, I would definately try 1 session for myself. Right now I doubt that my H will be willing. He has all but checked out of the relationship. He is planning on staying on the couch, im not sure for how long--maybe until its really over.

Well he obviously doesn't drive a car, then. It's just there, sitting there in the driveway, right? And he never has to make any effort to keep it going, yes? He never puts gas in it, never checks the brakes, changes the oil, puts air in the tires, none of that, right? And it just keeps on rolling?

No. It doesn't. Your H is putting more effort into the maintenance of a hunk of metal than he is in your M! I've seen a lot of posts like this recently, where the BH doesn't want to better his M. That's a puzzler.

You can drag the horse to the water, though, psc. Show him by your actions how you can be (Plan A). Plan every day to do something special for him. Fix his favorite meal. Buy tickets for the two of you to attend a sports event, maybe. What does he enjoy that the two of you can do together?

I don't think he's so terribly done with the M that he's checked out permanently. I think he wants to stay but doesn't know how, so he does nothing. He doesn't trust you too much right now, so he's not going to be totally open to the ideas you bring to him.

I agree that a phone consult with the Harleys would help jump-start this.

Right now I'm scared to push too much. I know not to push too much with "I love you". I'm taking this one step at a time. He still hugs me, so all physical contact isn't lost. Since affection/sexual fulfillment is his big EN I can still have something to work with. Small touches here and there I can manage too without him running away. Last night he slept on the couch and will probably continue to do so for a while.

Maybe I was wrong in saying it, but I apologized to him last night for hurting him so much. I did mention how I wanted to be a good wife. He said I will for someone one day, I said I wanted to be a good wife for him. He didn't reply to that. I'm not sure if he is so hurt he couldn't reply or if he really thinks I can be good to him. I want to bring the passion back and be his special someone, his wife, and partner.

You weren't wrong in being honest with him.

It sounds like his response was intended to hurt you. I get that. I said a few things like that to my FWH in the beginning. He just kept plugging away, trying to compensate for his behaviors.

Let him know that you would like him to sleep in bed with you. He'll turn you down, but I think eventually he'll find his way in there.

It's a long road, psc.

It sure would be nice to hear his perspective on all this.

I'll admit, I haven't done the best at putting my H first or doing the best Plan A I should have done. It's my fault he feels the way he does. I feel like a dummy with the thickest skull possible and I need a good whack. I shouldn't have made bad choices in the first place and then I should have done what was needed in the first place. Now my H feels like he won't ever get over the pain unless we split.

I will try to get him to come check out this site. I have asked him in the past, but he didn't really seem like he liked the idea. Any suggestions on how to ask? Something I could say that would seem non-pushy or something to make the site more appealing. I know how great the information is here, but H hadn't been very receptive in the past when I suggested it.

Can you ask him to come here and give us his perspective so we can help you deal with this? He could just start up a new thread. I really want to hear his perspective if possible.

I asked my H if he would come here and take a look. He us very hessitant and I'm not sure if he will, but I put the option out there for him.

I have been re-reading SAA, and going to start HNHN after. I know I have a lot of work ahead of me to make H feel special and loved, like he really is. He has been very nice around me and I feel he still wants us to be together deep down inside, but he wont admit it or let it be known.

Tomorrow is going to be an odd day I have a feeling. I want to let him know I am VERY thankful for him and that he is the only one I want in my life. I just dont want to overdo it with talking. I am going to do something to show him, im just not sure what right now.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! I hope it is a great day

It has been a few days, but they have been good days. I had talked to my H about coming here but Im still not sure if he will. I know I am doing better about stopping LB's though b/c when I was explaining the site and what it has to offer, I didnt push it on him. I know in the past when I have tried to offer either the site or books or any other helpful ideas, I have tried too hard to get him to want to check whatever it was out. He really doesnt like to be pushed that way and I am proud of myself for realizing this is a problem I have of being too pushy.

H has been sleeping in the bedroom with me instead of on the couch. He still has a lot of anger towards me about the A and has been talking a bit more openly about it. I get very upset with myself when he expresses his anger and pain, but it is giving me more reason to work harder to show him I am not that person anymore.

I am working on restoring that passionate love we had and I want to suggest some of the questionnairs and books to H again, but Im not sure if that would be too pushy too soon. Last night he mentioned how much work we still had to try to repair our M and he is still not sure if it will work out. I think he is more open right now to the possibility that we can get help on what to do.

I have been working on making permanent changes for the better with myself. After I had the talk about this site with H, I noticed some changes in his behavior too. We have been able to sit and talk without it starting a heated debate type of discussion and he moved back into the bedroom.

Yesterday was my birthday and I was just going to make it another day, but H surprised me at work with a new phone. Mine had been acting up a little, not much that I thought I needed a new one but H did. It meant alot to me that he did that. The phone is nice, but I appreciated him more. Today we went out to eat with his parents to celebrate and it again was a really good day.

Between some texts and my birthday card, H has said alot about what he wants for us. He does want to be a family and have a great relationship with me, but he is still scared. I will be trying harder than ever to ensure he feels loved and that he is making the right choice to stay together. I haven't brought up any books or other things that might help but I want to make that suggestion again without sounding like I'm harping at him. I gave left a few books out in our living room just in case but I don't think he has looked at them.

I have been working on meeting some of him ENs. I am making a point to make them important to me to though. H and I need to sit and talk more about what we both want and my ENs will be something I'll bring up. We have talked about it before but I want to make this time all about staying true to the MB plan. I don't know if H will be up to learning about it, again something we will discuss, but I can explain some ideas where he will be understanding.

One step at a time and eventually we will have traveled a great distance

The way to "bring it up" or suggest something is to ask him when he says things like "He does want to be a family and have a great relationship with me, but he is still scared" is by asking him...

What's your plan?

Just kinda say that from what you've read sentiments about wanting something better are the same as you staring at a broken car engine saying you wished it ran better. To fix the car on your own you'd need auto repair classes, a manual, tools...etc. A marriage can not be fixed by sentiments alone. It needs a plan. Recovery needs an outside objective professional PLAN.

MB is such a plan. How about we check it out? I've read a little about it so why don't we invest in our marriage and, at least, listen to a book on tape that I got which details a plan which I think we'll both like. I want to make our marriage better FOR BOTH OF US. You win too.

Such plan includes sex (sex sells) and it includes a way to put the affair behinds us both. (appealing since he stated he has a fear which is typically the WH's fear that they will never be able to be forgiven or live down the affair).

Mr. Wondering

MrW, that is what I want to do actually--sit down and tell him more about how great MB is and the plan that is mapped out. He has been very to the point about not wanting a counseling or anything like that--he said we know what needs to be done and we are smart people so we just need to do it. That is true to a point. We both know what we want from our M and know what we would like to see work, but its meshing everything together so we both benefit. That is where I need help. Your suggestion on what to say sounds great. I am going to use that when H and I talk again.

Get His Needs/Her Needs on CD (audio version)....

Take a road trip TOGETHER and listen to it TOGETHER.

The car is the perfect place to go over this stuff. No interruptions and no face to face conversations. He's trapped but yet comfortable. You can pause the cd and discuss at will.

If you already have the book...then read it OUT LOUD together.

The book "Surviving an Affair" is great...but much of it is covered at the beginning of "His Needs/Her Needs"...so presuming the affair is OVER...HNHN is, perhaps, the way to go for BEGINNING a recovery.

My wife and I did go to the MB Seminar weekend in Orlando but that was 2 years into recovery. The first two years we learned everything we could here on the forums TOGETHER and in a couple MB books. The principles and plans are pretty much all available here and FREE. Marriage Counselors are generally generally clueless so you don't have to go to one (which it appears will be another selling point for your husband...so give him the choice MB or a counselor betting he'll choose MB).

Mr. W