Athena, bring the body and the mind will follow. You can't very well whine about this "not working" when you are not taking the steps. You can't cut corners on this program. IF you want this to work, you are going to have to do the work for several weeks in order to develop feelings. You are not going to be able to cut corners.

Half measures will AVAIL YOU NOTHING.

So, whether you feel like it or not, sit down together with him TONIGHT and schedule out 20+ hours of undivided attention time for the next 7 days. Plan out the times, where you are going and what you will be doing. Plan on having sex on every day you have UA time. No, it doesn't FEEL romantic at first. It feels forced and stilted. But this is how it becomes natural. The more sex you have with him, the more bonded you will feel to him.

But you have to do the work, Athena. A feeling is not going to attack you by osmosis especially when you have not set the stage to make it happen.

This program DOES NOT WORK without the UA time. So get to it!!

Exactly! You got it now. Dr Harley speaks of a woman who started off HATING her husband. She agreed to follow his plan to see if it changed anything. She said one day they were driving down the road and she realized suddenly when she looked at him "I LOVE HIM!!" All of a sudden it hit her that those feelings had come back.

If you take the right steps and go through the motions, they will come back FAST, Athena. Feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions. You will be surprised at how quickly they come back.

Athena, sex is not expected to set off fireworks at first, but you should go ahead and do it to get in the practice. Having sex will help HIM fall in love with you and motivate him to meet your needs. All these needs feed EACH OTHER, so don't skip SF just because don't feel like it now. NONE of this feels natural at this point. But you still go through the motions. The feelings will come.

I am kinda worried that going through the motions will actually hurt us more right now. I agree we need to practice to overcome some sexual issues, but can't shake my disappointment in SF. I hate to admit that I am comparing a lot and BH is coming up short. I am just not sympathetic or caring enough towards him right now to want to work through the sexual issues. Perhaps spending the time together will help and then I can make myself be with him.

I called him at work to express my frustrations over not finding the time to be together. At first he was defensive and I realized I was committing a love buster (disrespectful judgement or angry outburst, I don't know which), so I apologized and cleared it up. But then it felt like he was making excuses for us not finding the time. Yes, we are busy, but we need to MAKE time.

He was working from home the other day and I took the day off to do some stuff around the house. We hardly saw each other. A couple of days before we were talking about maybe taking a nap together or going for lunch and I had even thought about some SF. But none of that happened. I didn't want to interrupt his work and he didn't want to interrupt mine. We had a whole day to make progress and didn't do a darn thing. I think that is what is frustrating me. I blame myself for not being more open about my expectations, but I am also disappointed that he didn't seem to try anything either.

I've complained about his shortcomings (in my eyes) so much and I'm the one who cheated, so I don't feel I have the right to expect anything from him anymore. I feel like it is all up to me to fix and if I'm not on my A-game it all falls apart.

athena, did you see my post about scheduling that time together? I would also check out this link.

Yes, I know we need to schedule time. But it feels like we need to schedule time to schedule time!

The link was good. I think I do have an aversion. Not towards sex, but towards sex with him. It doesn't take much to turn me on, but it also doesn't take much to turn me off. And unfortunately he has been exhibiting a lot of the turn offs and I feel uncomfortable beating him down (yet again) by telling him what they are.

ok, sit down tonight and do this!


Well, he needs to be told what is bothering you. You both should tell each other so you can make changes. That is not beating him down, it is giving him vital information.

"you have to override your feelings with your intelligence in learning new habits." Dr Harley on Wednesday's radio show.

Steve made a very similar comment to me once, and he stated that overriding those feelings with logic is incredibly difficult and in order to do it you need to be very thoroughly convinced of the logic of the plan you are using. He said something to the effect that you better make sure your logic is iron tight so it will be strong enough.

These are both very interesting points. The logical person in me COMPLETELY agrees. However, the side that has trouble sticking to an exercise routine or eating healthy seems to be the one who shows up more often! Perhaps I need to work on my own mental strength and will power in order to stay focused when my feelings are confusing me.

So I am now quite convinced that the Rule of Protection and the Rule of Honesty conflict greatly when a love bank balance is very low.

I tried to be honest and tell BH about the things I was unhappy with, but no matter how I would have said it, it would have still hurt him greatly. However, because my balance is low, I wasn't being very gentle in how I told him (love buster) and it probably hurt him even more.

We both agreed that until we start increasing those balances by spending sometime together, we can't get into any relationship discussions or constructive criticisms and sex is off the table.

I do feel responsible for all of this - I am driving the roller coaster (or pushing the hormonal swing, if that is what it is). He is trying to be a steady eddie and I am the one bouncing all over the place seemingly inconsistently. I am frustrated with so many things right now and take it out on myself in my head, and when I let it out, it is directed at him. I need to make posters of the love busters and hang them around the house to remind myself what not to do. Perhaps put some ideas on it for what to do instead. I feel so ignorant about this (simple) process and need to have constant reminders about how to do it.

athena, you are onto something. I counseled with Dr. Chalmers on two occasions earlier in the fall. Since my H was not on board with MB - and still isn't - her advice to me focused on what I could do. One of my assignments was to make a list of LB's and come up with alternate behaviors in place of each.

For example - an alternative behavior to both AOs and DJs is offering grace. I don't mean "saying grace," I mean you extend grace to the other party (your BS) by taking a moment to consider where they are coming from and trying to understand them. Simple communication techniques can help with this - reflection, for example (paraphrasing what you heard - "Let me make sure I understand what you are saying" etc). It takes some practice to get to where it doesn't sound stilted and unnatural.

When H and I were in counseling with our first counselor (I really liked her - felt like we actually worked on things - unfortunately we were going to her during the 4 months that I trickle truthed my H - you can read my thread for that doozy - and it essentially negated all the hard work we'd done) she coached us through reflection using an exercise where we talked about something that the other had done during the last week that we appreciated and why. Simple stuff but effective.

Anyway my suggestion would be to do just what you're saying - make a list of LBs and come up with alternative behaviors. Doesn't have to be a poster, but you will want to remind yourself of them frequently. You can do the same with the ENs, and come up with creative ways to meet them.

Just my $.02...hang in there.

athena,

You do need to be honest with your H as Mel said. He needs to hear what is bothering you. Are you listening to what bothers him and what he needs?

Have you gone to him today and said "I know what I said to you was hard for you to hear, but I appreciate you listening to me."

He needs reinforcement, he doesn't need you hiding and dodging.

So you think the rule of Protection and the rule of Honesty conflict? I think you don't understand them yet.

I mentioned to your H there is a difference between "radical honesty" and "brutal honesty" and that you two need to discuss this. But, just because you told him some painful truths, it does not mean you are not protecting him or the marriage.

You see he needs to hear how you think and feel. He needs to know what he is dealing with and have you share these with him. But, as I suggested to you a moment ago, he also needs to hear that you understand he is hurt, and that you take no pleasure in telling him things that hurt. He needs to hear you respect him for listening and appreciate him for doing it. He needs to feel your hand on his arm, neck, back, etc. as you tell him these things.

You will be surprised how well the Rule of Honesty dovetails with the Rule of Protection. You are telling the truth to protect your marriage, to put on the table issues that you are dealing with, and so seek his understanding is to protect your marriage and him. He will not be blindsided to lead astray if he knows your thinking even if it hurts him.

Let me ask you one last thing. If you had a friend that was hurting emotionally and you want to support them and let them know you cared what would you do?

Hang in there Athena99, you can do this. It is painful which is why Harley had plan B so preserve the love bank for recovery. It takes a lot of love to endure recovery and it cannot be done without it. It would seem to me your H loves you far more than you realize. Let him know you appreciate it.

God Bless,

JL

Dr Harley is discussing the process of falling in love on his Friday radio show. He says it takes 3 to 6 months to fall in love as long as you are meeting the 20 hours of UA time meeting the 4 intimate EN's. He describes how he has taken couples who NEVER loved each other and taught them how to fall in love.

Athena and Helo, go listen to Friday's show here

Thanks for the link ML ... that was a really good show to listen to. I think I may tune in more often!

You can also email them your own questions...

I think I may do that. Helo and I have been discussing some of the finer points of MB and if we have a question or a personal issue we would like to get into detail on, that would be a good idea.

I have to say - MB is really growing on me. I am a very structured person and having a program that is so clearly defined, self-referential, and positive ... gives me a lot of hope and the tools/explanations I have been searching for.

Seriously, I just went to the section for Radio Archives and in the topic drop-down box, the ENTIRE MB program is outlined ... this list in itself is a great reminder of how to keep on track.

Emotional Needs
- Affection
- Sexual Fulfillment
- Conversation
- Recreational Companionship
- Honesty and Openness
- Physical Attractiveness
- Financial Support
- Domestic Support
- Family Commitment
- Admiration

Love Busters
- Selfish Demands
- Disrespectful Judgments
- Angry Outbursts
- Annoying Habits
- Independent Behavior
- Dishonesty

Policies
- Policy Of Joint Agreement
- Policy Of Undivided Attention
- Policy Of Successful Negotiation
- Policy Of Radical Honesty

Athena99,

YOu touch on something that I have always found both surprising when I came to this site and very comfortable with. People in similar situations react, think, feel, say, and often do the same things. That really surprised me years ago. I always had the feeling the everyone was different and felt things differently. I was wrong.

However, the good news is that since there is such commonality in peoples behavior, then an orgainzed well thought out plan that works, works a great deal of the time. Some of MB seems counter intuitive and sometimes even counter to itself, for example your questions about rule of protection and honesty. But, with thought and reading it becomes clear it is all well founded.

And if you read other information about recovery you will begin to see bits of MB in them, but it often isn't as well organized or expressed as here.

I am glad to see that you are beginning to gain some insight into things, and I hope that your recovery continues.

God Bless,

JL

Athena, I've been thinking about you and your H.

How are things going?

Well, to be honest, I am struggling � with so many things and it is really frustrating.

First of all, I am suffering from depression. I�ve been on antidepressants for almost 9 months, but lately have been forgetting to take them and have started feeling really low again. OM was always around to remind me and since NC, I haven�t let BH fill that need. I talked to him about it this morning and he is going to help me out now.

We have been making the extra time together, but not the 15-20 hours. Much more than before, but not enough.

I had a dream about OM the other day and it was an innocent dream, but I left the dream feeling like I had actually been with him. In the dream, we weren�t talking, but just sitting beside each other and it felt really good just to be in his presence. At a time when I was feeling really depressed when I was awake, it felt really good to wake up to a happy feeling. So much so that when I woke up I had a hard time shaking those thoughts. I wanted to spend the day in bed just re-living that dream. I am frustrated because I am going through the withdrawal and my own dreams are sabotaging it for me � I can�t control them!

I am struggling with meeting BH�s needs. I know I haven�t been doing it at all very well and even though I am struggling with the depression and want to sleep all of the time, it feels like he isn�t even trying to meet my needs. He says he is walking on eggshells because he doesn�t know the �right� way to talk to me sometimes or what the right kind of conversation is for me. I told him that what I am used to in my relationship with OM is to talk about the relationship a lot. Every time we got together, our relationship was first and foremost � we talked about it incessantly - what are we going to do about the situation, what are our next steps. We spent a lot of time talking about, analyzing and appreciating our relationship. And I am missing that now.

I started thinking about my needs. BH and I haven�t sat down to discuss our needs and how we want them met (I know � this should have been done by now). I haven�t told him what my needs are so it is not fair of me to complain that he is not meeting them, but I feel like he is not even trying. He is waiting for it to happen on its own � not asking what my needs are. I don�t know if he is waiting for me to meet his needs or tell him what to do to meet my needs. But I told him that I can�t help him when I can�t even help myself right now. I�m in a very low and dark place and it makes it difficult. I know I need to deal with the depression before I can start working on my marriage, but at the same time, I wonder if the failures in my marriage are contributing to my depression � so it is a chicken and egg problem right now.

But also that I look at my needs and feel that OM met them very well. I tell BH what my needs are and he can start meeting them too � I get that. But how many times do I need to tell him that?! I told him that I may not be giving you the green light to show me affection, but to push through it anyway. I�ve told him again and again and he doesn�t get it. He admits he doesn�t get it. I sympathize with him in that he is having a hard time � walking on eggshells around me. But I feel like I am the only one working on this and I am not able to do it very well right now. So it is all going to fall apart. If both of us aren�t able to focus on getting those 15 hours and if I�m dealing with my depression, it is all going to fall apart and it is scary.

I am still in withdrawal. I think about OM way more than I should and I try not to, but GOD, he pops up in my dreams! OM met my needs so well and right now when I am dealing with my depression it is even more evident. A year ago when I was first feeling low and didn�t understand what was going on, it was OM who was there for me to listen to me. I laid in bed crying one night and told BH how sad I was feeling and had visions of driving my car into a concrete pillar and he didn�t say much. He just said �oh�. A few months later, OM convinced me to see my dr and before the meds had kicked in I had a really bad day � I was losing it. OM stayed with me and made me call a crisis support line. He didn�t leave until I was talking to someone and had calmed down. Only then did he give me some privacy to talk and he went up to my office to collect my things and made some excuses as to why I wasn�t coming back for the afternoon. He saved my life that day. Not by what he said, but by what he DID.

And I know BH just didn�t know what to do in the moment when I first opened up to him. I understand that, but at the same time, I need someone who can step up and deal with stuff like this. I don�t know how long I can wait for him to figure it out. I know this sounds so stupid, but I�ve got (or had) someone in my life who understood this and was there for me and met my needs so well, in ways that I didn�t even appreciate back then. I know he is married and that I am a danger to his marriage, but I can�t dismiss how he made me feel and how much he met my needs. I appreciate it now because I am not getting those needs met. OM was a natural at meeting my needs and BH struggles with it � it is not easy for him. I don�t think I can wait to see if he ever figures it out.

It is like a reverse plan B. Instead of moving out and seeing how many of my needs BH was meeting so I�d come crawling back, I am now seeing how much of my needs were met by OM � needs I am not getting it in my marriage. I realize this must sound like fog babble to all of you, but this is my life and how I am feeling. Someone last week told be to stop whining � it is not about the feelings it is about focusing and doing what you need to do whether you feel it or not. I understand that. But in my depressed state, it is hard to get up and do anything � hard to get up, hard to stay up, hard to go to work, hard to listen to my kids argue � I just want to pull myself away from everything, crawl back into bed and lay there until the pain goes away. So I am either dealing with that extreme pain or god forbid I let myself think about OM and how happy he made me. It is like the only bright light I�ve got in my life right now. And it is gone.

I care about BH, and I feel awful that I am not giving him the chance, but I have given him the chance. 2 years ago I told him that I was ready to walk away from our marriage and a year ago I told him I was thinking of killing myself because I was so unhappy. He can say he loves me and he can say he is trying, but I don�t SEE anything. It is not registering with me.

I did tell BH about some of these thoughts and he agreed to come to counseling with me about my depression. I need to talk to a dr and I think he needs to be there to understand what is going on and what he needs to do to help me. Perhaps that is where I need to start � taking my meds and talking to a dr. But it feels like the marriage is put on hold while I get my life in order.