The barbs are killer -- KILLER. No way to respond plus public humiliation as the icing on top. She HATED you in that moment -- and I don't use that word hate lightly.

You can keep it up because it is justified. Or you can hold your tongue and work towards creating a healthy marriage.

Your choice.

I responded to the barbs by taking a vow of silence that would make a monk weep with envy at my fortitude.

You asked what FWW's think. That's what I think.

I think FWW would walk if I tossed out little barbs.

She'll push me over the edge when I'm shutting down to avoid nuking, and withstand the nuke... but I doubt she would ever tolerate small barbs in front of other people.

I don't really disrespect her like that, either. Just not something I do...

You speak highly of your FWW.

How does this fit in with the "whatever it takes as long as it takes" position.

You were awfully hard on me for saying what I would and wouldn't tolerate -- all sorts of labels and judgments ensued.

The difference is, I said it and you -- and I don't mean just you -- I mean the people who responded to that -- hate the thought that the WS has options too.

Which means you have to temper your stuff if you want to keep them around which means you don't get to just unload whenever wherever you feel the need because you just ASSUME they will be there to take it because every message you get says that is so.

Here is a contrary message: ain't so.

I know I need to cut it out.

I happen to agree with the BS and WS BOTH get to make a choice.

I also believe that once the choice is made, its just wrong to do it by halves.

I chose to give reconciliation a chance. That means we work toward that.

If I wanted to throw her A in her face whenever I wanted in a callous and maliciously hurtful manner, than I shouldnt have mislead her with the olive branch of reconciliation. I should have left her, and then I can be as hurtful as I want, she is free to discontinue contact with me.

As it stands, I have told her I want her back and that I will keep her safe, than I prove myself a liar and not worthy of trust when I abuse her with these comments.

It really is not cool.

I am working on them.

I think much worse comments several times a day and manage to keep most of them back, but its not ok to "just" shoot someone with a pistol only once a day. You have to just not shoot people, because oddly enough, people dont really like getting shot.

See? I knew you were sensitive!



"Whatever it takes for as long as it takes" sounds horrible, doesn't it? Oh, how could one suffer the indignity?

Yet, if you read through these boards, does anyone really advocate tolerating continued abuse, or wielding an A like a weapon toward a WS?

No. It's not advocated, and it's not supported. It still happens, regardless. People empathize with it. It's a very difficult thing to keep the person who has dealt you the most painful emotional blow you have received in your life close to you.

In fact, it's not really a natural thing to do. That's why we have anger, that's why we have resentment; to keep those who injure us far, far away. Recovery requires us to retrain our instinct to drive away those who have hurt us.

That is what a BS faces.

What a WS faces, is trying to stay close to this person who has every alarm in their mind and body now rejecting the WS.

It's a daunting task for either party.


If I speak highly of my FWW, it's because she is so repentant, that I pity her. She has shed more tears in all of this than I have. She has cried so hard, that I see and hear that she is physically in pain, and she often feels nauseated when the feelings hit.

I pity that, because it was her own decisions that brought this down on us both. I can't imagine having that responsibility. I don't want to be in this emotional hell, but I didn't have that choice. She did, she chose hell.


So, if there are times where I can't look at her, don't want to touch her, can't speak to her... does she now have the "option" to walk away? Is facing the damage that she CHOSE to do to her spouse, and herself, some kind of far reaching expectation? I don't think so.

Is creating total transparency too much to ask? I don't think so.

Oh, but the subject here is... what? A poly. This was the "intolerable" act. Embarrassing and infuriating. So what is too much to ask? To try to give the BS some peace of mind, to take an action of self-sacrifice and sincerity to confirm honesty. "Oh, but I'm honest!" Honest enough to lead a double life built on lies and subversive actions. And then expect the person you betrayed to just magically believe "Oh! My WS is honest again, just like that!"

Look, I'll extend you this branch; studies show that polygraphs detect lies about as well as pigs detect pork, but the validity of the test isn't the issue. The way I see it, is that it is the action, the sincerity involved in this is what matters.

It's an action saying "I am no longer willing to be deceptive, and I will do 'whatever it takes' to prove that to you."

I wouldn't say making yearly trips to the poly examiner is tolerable, but a single act to start reconciliation is a huge step.

If the affair proves anything...

it's that the ws has options, both legitimate and illegitimate and they will take them based upon entitlement.

In early recovery, BS's don't sleep to well at night on the promise "I'll be here as long as it takes".

Further, BS's would also love to turn back time and give back the legitimate option to divorce. It's not a prize.

Mr. Wondering

The barbs really are terribly painful I don't think I realized how much. He used to do that about other things...my organizational skills, my weight, etc....now it is my affair.

Last night we played a video game where you can launch balls at the other player...He said, "haven't you done enough to me already." I stopped launching balls. I also stopped enjoying the game.

I think both Sunny and HHH are right.

The barbs are terribly painful.

It can also seem impossible to hold them all back because EVERYTHING INSIDE YOU IS SCREAMING: "DONT TRUST THIS MONSTER SHE DESTROYED EVERYTHING YOU TRUSTED, GET HER AWAY NOW BEFORE ITS TOO LATE."

Everything. Everything is screaming it, there is nothing else in your mind. I have learned that I have just not talk, and have told WW that if we are talking and I stop, and she asks why, I am going to say "I am not talking," and asked that she accept that gratefully as a supreme effort of protection.

I am not talking because I want to hurt her, I am not talking because any word out of my mouth is going to be horrible because there is a panic'd terrified animal inside that is straining to get away from the pain.


TOO F*N TRUE! (Expletive added for emphasis)

SO NEAT that adultary is get out of jail free card.

Get out of jail free card??!?! Pffffttt, I would trade that for no affair ANY DAY. It is definately no prize.

FWW read this. I got the riot act. It is a DJ of me to even think this way.

Though, she said she only has a single instance in our entire marriage and relationship in which I ever barbed her.

I'm not proud of even that once...

Status report; purchased large Costco bottles of Multivitamins ("Mature" due to content), and B-100 "energy blend."

Taking 1 Multi three times a day, 2 B-100's in the AM and PM, and one when I get home from school/work.

Thus far, it has "installed a glass floor." Where I "bottom out" mood wise is higher up the spiral, and just seems to stop at a certain point.

I am also noticing an improvement in... er... output.

Additionally, SF has gained some benefit on my end. Interesting...

Good times!

The greatest SF benefit I've ever found is lifting heavy weights weekly week, focusing a lot on exercises that tax my whole body and particularly my "core". The 'core' isn't the abs, like so many people think. It's your hips, thighs, and butt!

Spend six weeks doing squats and deadlifts with heavy weights at least once a week apiece. Heavy enough you can't do more than 8-12 reps in a set. Building muscle in the largest muscle groups of your body (butt, hips, thighs, back) increases testosterone production in men, which gives us a huge boost in the bedroom.

Nothing better, dude. I've got weights in the basement, and lifting heavy in a way that taxes those large muscle groups brings the energy benefits within a week or two at most.

Well, let's just say this vitamin regimen - along with the energy boost - seems to have an effect on... hmm... the quality of blood flow?

Not claiming any miracles or anything, but the difference in blood flow is noticeable.

Adding weekly lifting heavy weights will add to that. Noticeably

Will have to do. I would say some good cardio work, for at least 30 minutes should as well.



Interesting quote for the day;

I really relate to this statement. Sometimes it feels like this happens to me once a day.

Wanna know the hardest part? She got it back anyway, even if I didn't want to give it.

I have this, though; my older sister divorced the father of her children, and left him in the dust due to his infidelity. He remarried to a woman who brought the worst out of him, and that eventually left to his death due to drug overdose.

What happened after she left him was in no way, shape, or form the fault of my sister - but the look of regret she had the day she buried him (10 years after leaving him, and his current wife was too doped out to care about burying him), and the regret she lives with every day is something I wouldn't want to face.

I also get to see the look of regret on the face of my own father that his marriage to my mother didn't work out.


Not going to be me. NOT. GOING. TO. BE. ME.

My mother is an unrepentant serial adulteress widow, living alone, having alienated most of her children -- including me -- with her ongoing self-absorbed behavior.

My stepfather, who was my mother's affair partner, died of cancer 3 years ago after a 17-year marriage to my mother. I never liked him, but tolerated him for two decades.

My stepbrother is dead as of a couple of months ago from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. His wife had an affair, and he used that excuse to ramp up the previous EAs (possibly PAs) he'd been engaged in. This behavior destroyed his marriage and eventually his life.

I'm right with you, brother. Not going to be me. NOT. GOING. TO. BE. ME. No broken home for the kids of this guy.

Me too guys- 4 kids who don't deserve this, and WS whom I still love completely, despite all of this.

NOT. GOING. TO. BE. ME. EITHER.

So, the way I figure, the whole thing started back in October, when they started having "relationship talk" and she commented to OM that "sometimes, it feels like we're roomates." Thus began the intimate conversation during lunch and breaks at work.

The dam burst in January, when the contact began outside of work, and it didn't take any time whatsoever after that.

Had a discussion the other night. I feel like we need to tell the older DD's. They know something happened. I know they've seen the pain and anger on my face, and they've walked in after FWW has broken down.

I feel like I owe it to my children to be truthful with them so that, hopefully, they never have to face this in their own lives.

FWW is terrified that the kids will "hate her." I don't know...

They need to no the truth so will no that they are not to blame for the tension in the house.

Simply state that a WW had a boyfriend and went out on dates with the OM (make sure to tell them the OM's name). Whats known an affair.

Follow up with that married women do not have boyfriends and go on dates. And, the same goes for married men, no girlfriends.