I would say he has definitely improved from when I first arrived here, talking with SH had the biggest impact. Remember him taking a crowbar to our fireplace when I was in the bathroom? Or stripping down our patio umbrella while I was at the grocery store? Stuff like that does not happen anymore. Thank God.

And he talks more, tells me about stuff going on, but then there's some icky stuff there...yesterday he told me about a situation at work, and long story short, he told me had decided to handle it in, imho, an unethical way, with deception by omission. You know what a problem I have with that, and it's beyond just not liking it when it's done to me, but when someone practices it in general life. I don't respect people who do that. So anyway, after he told me his plans, I asked him, "Is that how you would like to be treated if this was reversed?"

In my head, I was thinking, he just went to that customer service seminar, he's read Leadership and Self-deception, The Fred Factor, the Speed of Truth, and he just doesn't 'take' to any of it. There's a lack of introspection and absorption and application. I didn't *say* any of that, but that's what I was thinking as he was telling his story.

Anyhoo...he got mad when I asked him that question and told me I was telling him how to do his job. I calmly said I had only asked him a question, and if he didn't want to answer it, that was fine. End of discussion, until later in the day.

He said he was conflicted, that he felt he needed to do what he planned to do to support the family. Then I had the chance to say that I felt that the Bible teaches us to guard our support, our sustenance, by following the word of God, and if we do good things, right and moral acts, then we will be provided for, but doing wrong and immoral acts will certainly put us at risk of losing provision. He *heard* that.

He had another situation not long ago where he was faced with something similar, and he did the 'right' thing and was completely up front about it, and it worked out very, very well. I don't know why he doesn't build on his own experiences--"When I deceive, it ends up bad. When I am truthful, everything goes well."

And this current situation is not in any way of his doing. He was going to be deceptive to cover for SOMEONE ELSE'S MISTAKE. I do not get this mentality!!

What I get really exhausted about is the initial conversations go poorly, and he needs hours and hours to calm down and be rational. It is exhausting! I feel like the mother/coach/psychologist, and I just want to be the wife. I want to be able to have discussions with my H that don't end up with him melting down.

He's having migraines again, too. I speculate that these are tied to the times in his life when he is conflicted between doing the right thing, and following his nature to say eff it, I'll do what I think is going to benefit ME the most!

Actually, I do get this. Not for myself, but for him. It fills his need to be liked. He probably thinks that if he covers for this person, they will like him. What he doesn't seem to care about is if they respect him. I should ask him if he thinks being liked is the same thing as being respected.

I'm hugely grateful you see progress. I didn't come here to try to tweak your program. I know how awful I felt when my x threatened me with divorce, and when I saw the pattern another poster picked up on, I thought it may speak to you, too. I'm glad he came home and shared with you yesterday. There may be some DJ stuff in there, about how quickly you may expect he will get to total honesty with everyone, not just you, but you two are working the program, and will get there; I'm relieved and happy for you.

Like kt said on another thread, "Good people aren't dishonest."

I know I'm not the only person who thinks that. Who thinks the opposite? It drives me nuts, it really does. Being honest is a decision that can be acted upon immediately and consistently. Why would someone need to build up to it? You either are, or aren't.

CWMI, I'm fully supportive of spouses giving advice to each other. I think that we should. However, do you think in that moment he was just looking to talk?" I'm referring to the "is this how you'd want to be treated (responded? I forget the actual wording of you response to him. Now I have no idea the conversation so maybe he did want advice. But I'm just thinking about how a lot of times wives talk about their day or situations and the guy trys to start giving advice/solving the problem/etc and the wife just wants the husband to listen.

But I do think you're right that people should be honest 99.99999% of the time...even when that truth is hurtful...like when you tell me you hate my shirt. JK JK JK. I didn't say 100% because I still believe in letting my younger kids think there's a Santa Clause Does lying about Santa Clause count as being dishonest?

You know, CWMI, I used to have a lot of the actions your husband does. I would put off telling my wife about a situation until the last second that I knew she might not like so I wouldn�t have to hear her gripe. And, you know, it�s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission (as the saying goes). I would omit information to avoid conflict and then do the �oh! I forgot�.� Then she�d get upset and I�d get mad that she was mad and then we�d all yell at each other and have one big unhappy afternoon. Now, I don�t know if this is applicable to you or not but my wife would freak out when she heard something she didn�t like. She was very quick to fly off the handle and so I knew anytime I had news she wouldn�t like, she�d start getting very loud and disrespectful and so I�d put things off not to get the reaction.

That was years ago and I�m eternally grateful that I have learned that �honesty is the best policy� in all cases�specially dealing with my wife. I decided that regardless of how a person will respond, it should not dictate whether I�m honest or not. I won�t lie and say it wasn�t a relief and made it easier when she stopped having her AOs. But for her to quit having AOs I had to be very honest about how I wouldn�t tolerate her behavior. Anyway, I have no idea if any of that helps you at all or if I just rambled on for no reason . lol

I think it would be dishonest of me to not let him know that his decision about how to handle it caused me to lose respect for him. I didn't actually SAY that specifically, though, but I did say that I respected people who were upfront.

I think it depends on your/my H's definition of 'fly off the handle' as to whether or not I do, or my H perceives me doing so. I don't think I do, and I don't think I ever have as an initial response. I know in the past I have gotten all-out POd and resorted to yelling, as a frustration response to not being heard, but I don't have to be louder anymore to feel like I've said what I needed to say, and I don't own 'not being heard' as within my control. I say what I have to say calmly. Listening is someone else's job.

I can see the advice-giving point if I'd said that I thought he should handle it another way. I asked him if he wanted to be treated the same way. What if he said Yes, that is exactly how I'd want to be treated? What could I possibly say from there? There is no advice to be given from that point. My intention was only to encourage him to be INTENTIONAL himself, and honest with himself about who he intended to be in this interaction.

I agree with all of this. I know folks like this, too, and it gets my attention, too. I understand your disappointment. I'm trying to think of a better suggestion for you, and I'm drawing a blank. What's your plan for when that stuff happens?

Call attention to it. You're right, to a point, that it's a habit that people need time to consciously break. I get uber frustrated when he attempts to argue that it is the right thing to do (excluding the santa thing, of course!), I'm like, "Since when? Says who?"

lol...it only damages your integrity if people find out, right? omg...

CWMI, I wonder if some of your anger over your husband being dishonest at work is that you fear he will be dishonest at home as well. That is my fear when I hear the my dh has been "less than honest" at work.

No, my fear about him being dishonest at work is a whole conglomerate of things:

1. He'll invite the wrath of God (okay, perhaps a bit dramatic, but I do believe this!)

2. He'll get fired, jeopardizing our income.

3. He'll ruin his reputation and be unbearable. If he's not liked, he's not happy!

4. He'll feel guilty and be unbearable. Was it you who read Leadership and Self Deception, about how people lash out and make themselves into victims after they have done something against their own values? Yeah, that's tough to deal with.

5. It is an indication that he will never, ever change, and never, ever, be an honest person. Going back to point #1, I don't want to share that karma.

I'm not fearful that he will be dishonest at home. I pretty much expect it. I'm not angry about him being dishonest at work. I'm disappointed, and worst of all, I kinda pity him. How awful is that? I pity him like he's Willy Loman. I should invite him to see that play, but he'd never recognize himself. I better hush now...

As someone who is himself working through dishonesty I know how hard it is to break out of that habit. I identify myself as a "stay out of trouble liar". I have no idea when or how it started but when I look back at my life I can see the pattern reaching back to childhood. It is HARD breaking up the old pattern and creating a new one. But reading about your husband's problem at work makes me think that he is trying to do that. I think if he didn't know he had a problem with dishonesty, or if he knew but didn't want to change, he wouldn't have told you about the work issue at all. By telling you about the problem and telling you what he planned to do he was probably looking for permission to continue his old pattern, but maybe also looking for help in doing the right thing. He may have been trying to talk it out with you to help him change his course of action without even realizing it. It's easier to go with the old pattern because it's what we have the most practice with. Even though we know it's wrong. We find ways to make ourselves feel it is right.

Recognizing this kind of pattern in oneself and beginning work on it is really difficult. When I see it in myself it is so embarrassing. I feel so childish. My big fear is often how judgmental my wife will be, not about anything related to a lie itself. And then when I'm honest hearing "See?! See how easy it is? I told you so," is really awful, too. "I told you so" is infuriating.

I hope he "does right" in this work situation you described. And if he DOES, tell him you're proud of him.

I can understand "I told you so!" as an infuriating thing. Tell me, is it because you were given good advice and didn't take it, so therefore you feel, er, short-sighted? Or is it something else, like a perception that your advice-giver feels superior? Would you say the aggravation is more from you feeling inferior or a perception that they feel superior?

Ah, and we're down to the wire on the situation at work. Final outcome should arrive in the next day or two. Should I even ask how he handled it?

It's the last bit- a combination of both feeling inferior and a perception that they feel superior. And "infuriating" is the wrong word, in retrospect, but I think you understand my meaning. I know that being honest is always the right thing but there are times that I find it difficult to be honest about really small, stupid things. I have this inner conflict about "why can't I just tell the truth about this?!" I feel like I'm hijacking your thread with my own issue here, forgive me. I just found myself relating to your husband's dishonesty problem and the posts about "good people don't lie" struck a chord with me.

As for asking him how the work situation went, yes you should definitely ask him.

Don't worry about hijacking. Maybe you can help me understand my H, and maybe I can help you understand what it is like to live with a 'get out of trouble' liar...or any kind of liar.

What kind of trouble do you think you'll get in when you tell the truth? With my H, I think he ascribes motives to me that I don't have; they're motives I *think* he has, so he (maybe?) thinks everyone must think that way. For instance, that my aim in complaining is to punish, when really it is to incite change. I am thisclose to believing that he thinks 'getting one over' on someone is an admirable trait, something to be envied, as though it means the person 'getting it over' has some sort of special ability. Like it's a game.

CWMI-
I'm going to do a bit of t/j-ing as well.

You asked about "I told you so!"- In my family "I told you so meant the following:

1) The person who said "I told you" was right, and the other party was wrong. See, someone in the marriage always had to be "wrong" or "bad". And, as I learned, it was the wife who was doling out the "Told Yous" and the husband and child who were wrong and bad.

2)The person who says "I told you so" was preventing others from making mistakes. Because making mistakes is a shameful thing.

3) The person who said "I told you so" implicitly knows other people best. That means, that if I were in a conversation and got told "I told you", that meant, that essentially I was stupid and that my feelings and emotions weren't real or valid. I MUST be mistaking how I'm thinking or feeling.

As for the lying. Another habitual fibber here as well. I also learned it as a coping mechanism. I have a borderline parent. At any given moment, a borderline can rage. You don't know when it's coming. And, well, being dishonest was easier than putting myself out there to be raged at. Besides lying, I also used self- injury as a coping mechanism.

You fibbers really boff up people's lives, ya know that? Not just yours.

The last couple of days I've been struggling a LOT with this fib: my H told me quite a while ago, while we were doing really poorly, that he only said he wanted to have babies with me because he thought he was sterile and didn't think he'd have to follow through.

I'm trying to reason myself into thinking that he said that because he was being a full-out doodie-pie and didn't mean it, after all, we had another one after that who was planned. Never mind baby #4 who was post-op.

But then I remember him saying, in another doodie-pie moment, that he never thought our first child together was his, because I went out after work one evening the week before Christmas (he was invited) and ran into an old (platonic) friend, and he thought that could be the night that ds was conceived. That child was born at the end of the following November. *crazy*

So, putting together that 1) he thought he was sterile, and 2) he thought our first child together was not his, I can see how he could continue his charade into our baby #2 (my third). Our third (my fourth) was in nobody's plans except God's.

Anyhow, I'm feeling kinda borderline and ragey right now, thinking how in the F could someone 1)lie about wanting children 2)not disclose that they believe themselves to be sterile 3)accuse their spouse of gestating for eleven months 4)bring SO MANY PEOPLE into their little boffed up head-games? My word!

It's why I get so furious at people like TomOlympus...I feel like I'm living a totally twisted life, EVERYTHING I KNEW IS WRONG, it is a horrible way to treat someone, especially little children who are brought into this world based on a LIE you told. I hope none of the posters on my thread have been so horrible.

People, just do what you think is honorable and live it. If other people don't like it, well, why you trying to get everyone to like what you do anyway? Don't you know that will be a FAILED effort, no matter how hard you try? Not everyone is going to like you, and if you can only affect other people's reactions by deceiving them, all you have succeeded in doing is deceiving. If that is your end goal, have at it.

Here Here

Sorry to pick up on something that is SO not the focus of this post, but


What op? Not the snip? You were one of the tiny percent that conceives after this?

Oops!

His snip, and yes.

Fun conversation, that, and all the other didn't come out (thought he was sterile, baby not his) until #4 was three or four years old.