Holy cow, NED, you think every time a husband says something clueless and insensitive his wife should go laugh about it with her friends?

Or did I miss something more serious here in this story that you saw and I did not?

The best thing for their kids is for their parents to be in love, not divorced and peaceful. They are both here wanting to make things better, the husband as well as the wife. And they are making great progress and showing great willingness to change for each other. Both of them! No matter how young their children are, no matter how much they forget, they would be affected by the divorce of their parents for the rest of their lives. With this kind of effort and motivation, they seem more than capable of correcting what is wrong with their marriage and falling back in love, as many, many people have done. So to even suggest that separation might be in order seems like a damaging thing to do, to me

NED, don't you feel like you could be projecting a lot of your own experience onto this situation?

No, have I ever said that, ever? If you talked to B or anyone who knows me, I am very respectful of him and don't laugh at him at all except like if he's being cute and I'm laughing with him. Like the other day I was telling him that at work we're doing a dessert thing for Cinco de Mayo, and he says, oh, when is that? And I'm like oh it's on Cinco de Mayo, because we live in South Florida and our kids have taken Spanish so I know he knows that cinco, de, and Mayo mean 5, of, May. So then there was this aha! moment and we all laughed together.

From the advice you gave there, I assumed that you are seeing the same thing in Hill and Grace's situation as I am.

I agree that the best thing for kids is for parents to be in love, but it takes consistency in love and respect, not rubbing the partner's nose in it when their actions don't fall in line with unrealistic expectations. You may be right about "making great progress and showing great willingness to change for each other." I hope you do turn out right. That stuff takes time to assess.

I am a child of divorce and I agree that it has long-lasting effects. But as just one person, while seeing my Dad leave for an OW was sad all those years ago, living in daily strife with my mom and stepdad was horrifically much worse.

Believe me you won't see me go over there and suggest separation. I haven't seen either of them post on others' threads, so I don't think it's likely they would wander over here and read my posts. IRL I don't discourage folks from working on their marriages, I have their kids over so they can go out on Date Night and all that, even if I think over time their marriage is a hopeless cause.

From what I've read, the underlying disrespect, no, I don't think I'm projecting. If that were the case, I'd say that about more situations, not just very isolated ones.

Yes, you seemed very upset at the idea that grace shouldn't go talk about Hilltopper's clueless mistakes to her friend:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=163430&Number=2500524#Post2500524

And now, while you are not posting to them directly, you are still over here saying very discouraging things about their marriage. Of course, they could come right here and see it, so it's not as if you're having a private conversation they can't see.

I don't think you and I are seeing their marriage in the same way at all. You seem to be coming from the point of view that he is unlikely to change. And yet here they are, working in a program that gives great hope of change.

I don't think you ought to be encouraging a wife to "get out" simply because her husband has made some clueless and insensitive remarks and reactionary. And I don't think you can really claim you aren't providing that encouragement simply because you are posting that opinion on a different thread. You have no idea what other people's posting and reading habits are.

What are you seeing that makes you brand him such a bully? And why are you coming from the point of view that people cannot change and that being a good husband is not behavior that men can learn?

That's quite a leap.

Do you feel like in marriage women ought to be able to talk to their friends about whatever their husbands do?

I am amazingly thankful that my wife Prisca does not go blab about my mistakes to other women. How embarrassing! I've never known any of Prisca's friends to encourage her to "get out," but I'd still drop dead of embarrassment if Prisca shared my mistakes around freely. To me, that is part of protecting each other in marriage, and it's a very reasonable expectation for both husbands and wives, not a sign that somebody is a bully.

Chiming in to agree. You know, sometimes people can say or do some amazingly stupid things. I know I've been known to. I'm glad DH doesn't share that with others, and I'd never talk about his 'flubs' with anyone else, either.

Here's the slippery slope of sharing this type of thing with friends (other than the obvious disrespect and disloyalty that the spouse would feel if they knew about it): Some friends are loyal to a fault. When you vent to these friends they're going to side with you, regardless of whether or not you're justified in what you're saying. And you've just colored your spouse to them. When you're done venting, and feel better, the friend may still be righteously indignant about the heel who is mistreating you so. Even after you assure them that you were just 'venting' they may still have mentally placed a black mark against your spouse. They are in your corner, not necessarily your spouse's.

Good rule of thumb to use when I'm talking to friends out of earshot of my DH: Would I say it if he were sitting next to me? If the answer is "No" I don't say it at all.

I hear you saying you think today that he made a clueless mistake. I don't think it was a mistake. I think he lets himself say this stuff. To me a mistake would be more like if he forgot to take the trash out, not forgetting to speak to a spouse with basic respect. I don't think he would lack basic empathy, or he wouldn't have a job, because he'd be fired if he said that stuff to his coworkers. But somehow, with empathy or not, he does find a way to treat them with basic respect.

You may take what I said about getting out with the kids as discouraging their marriage. I would consider it a wake up call, especially after a brief Plan A, as in the When to Call It Quits article. Dr. H's wife broke up with him twice before they were married. If they were reading here, on my thread, wouldn't they post like "please cut that out" if I was discouraging them? They have a ton of encouraging posts, many from you, some form me, on their threads. How would my one or two posts that you don't like change the outcome. I'm not that powerful. You know this. I'm asking you, markos, I like you, and your wife, please stop treating me or my posts as discouraging.

I see patterns over time, a sense of intuition who has the underlying basic respect for their spouse, and who doesn't. I'm not saying change is impossible. I'm just saying if it were *me* I would get *my kids* the heck out. Even Dr. H says he wouldn't choose to recover his own marriage after an affair. We all have our limits.

You know their threads better than I do. I feel like I'm just repeating myself and adding nothing new at this point. For me it all boils down into either you see your partner as an autonomous equal, or you see them as someone who has taken something from you that belongs to you. It's the entitlement. "I changed for 3 days, where's my reward?" Who comes here and says that, or even thinks that way? Very few, even in State of Conflict. But that's fine, they can raise as many kids as long as they want to in a house like that. It's a free country. It's going to take me years to untrain that stuff out of my kids, and that's if it's not too late. Which it may be. I want to vomit when I hear my DD15 make excuses for her friends' insults. One guy called my then 17 year old sister "trick" on her Facebook page, and when I posted asking him who he thought he was talking to her like that, I was the one she unfriended. She says that's how kids talk to each other now.

Sure folks can change and learn new habits. If I had it to do over again I would not leave my kids in that for an extended period of time while I figured out if I could make my marriage work. He said he's been working on this since January, I would think that may be more than long enough for change to take root, if it's going to happen. Folks do change, and I think I've been one of the biggest cheerleaders here consistently over time when they do.

Sure. In practice I don't share B's private stuff, like his thoughts and feelings. But the rest I use my own discretion about. B did tell me I shared too much, so I toned it back, out of respect for his request.

I think both men and women should reason through with others these kinds of power and control issues Hill and Grace post about, though, like AOs, including vulgar insults. I don't agree this falls into "blabbing about mistakes", "amazingly stupid things", "flubs" or "venting". Especially when this stuff is still going on after months of being here, when the information on Love Busters is so clear. This is serious stuff.

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/power_and_control_wheel.html

Just caught up, it looks like things may be turning around for them, that'd be great. It was really just a tiny comment, I didn't mean to turn my thread into a commentary about all that.

Word.

HT and HTW will make their own choices. The idea that it is wrong for NED to express her feelings about what she derives from their posts, in her own thread to boot, is really out there.

It seems to me that the harsh and discouraging label is being applied with extraordinary selectivity.

Please don't bring debates from other threads over here in order to avoid our board policy of sticking to Marriage Builders concepts. Talking about other posters and calling them names ["bully"] is inappropriate and against our TOS. Let's end this discussion now, please.

Any questions, shoot me an email.

Fireproof

What a relief, two of the men responsible in my Dad's case were caught last week.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/05/2202633/possible-break-in-the-case-of.html

Wow, just realized that my thread name is pretty appropriate. A lot to let go of. Like anger and bitterness over these folks who did this to my Dad. But I have a lot to hold onto, like my good memories of him. He was so good with my kids, they would jump on his back and he'd carry them around. He was so patient and caring. Mother's Day we had a nice day with my mom and our family. A lot to be grateful for.

NED, I am so deeply sorry about the death of your father. What a shocking and tragic loss. How grateful you must be that they caught the killers. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{NED}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I love that you have good memories of him NED. My mother passed away last year, shortly before Mother's Day. She was a very loving and caring person, and I will always cherish the good memories I have of her. I am grateful for that.

I am glad to hear that you are hanging onto the good things, to see you through the bad. I am grateful that you had a Dad who you have fond memories of.

{{{NED}}}

NED, I've read your journey and your post to me on my thread "Other Wives...". I think I truly know how you feel. I'm tired too. But I'm really curious about the "life" afterward. I too feel peace when I think of a life without H. Relief, peace, you name it. Does that describe me as WOW. I've even read that book. haha Oh by the way...Sorry about your Dad. I'm trying to learn from others before I make my decisions. I even did some reading about legal separation laws in Texas. I scared myself for "thinking" that far ahead. I have hope sometimes and then I cringe. My question for you is "Do you have peace now?" Sincerely looking!

Kemp, sorry I didn't see this earlier. Life afterward is pretty cool. I don't walk on eggshells anymore. I had second thoughts once or twice, and once talked to the kids, and they were like no way, they don't want to go back to that, the bad moods and all that. The kids are doing really well.

If I never met another man again, I still think single life is way better than the marriage we had. B and I are really good friends now, so it's not that I'm like a bitter woman or something. I have been on a few dates, and that's fun, too.

Last week and this week was the trial for the unman who shot and killed my Dad. The jury came back with the verdict today. Guilty on all counts! What a relief! And the third person was *finally* caught, just this last Sunday! He had fled when the other two were arrested last May. The getaway driver pled guilty last month, and testified last week.

I am so grateful to the folks who put all the evidence together to make a complete picture. The folks who called 911 at the scene, helped my Dad there, and then came to the trial to testify. The ex-girlfriend who got a letter asking to falsify evidence, and instead turned the letter in to the police. The law enforcement folks who have a ton of experience with this and knew where to look for the pieces to put together. The prosecutors who recreated the picture in a way that answered a lot of questions I had. I am feeling a lot of closure already.

*****edit****

Happy for you NED. I know it couldn't ever replace your father.

I just wanted to send a

NED, I'm happy for you that this portion of all of this is over. And my continued condolences for the loss of your dad.

Thanks JustUss, for looking out for me, I haven't been good about editing that stuff out later. Brain, tc, thanks for the kind thoughts. This place becomes like another family after all the trials we ave been through together. My kids are doing well, getting their questions answered too.

How are you and your children doing?

And your new boyfriend? Does he have children also? Blended family?