This is where you went wrong, and where you still are going wrong to this day. You needed to stop badgering and pestering to take you back and move on with your marriage. Infidelity is not something you just say, "Okay, things are fine now, you are forgiven." It is something you EARN back over time. Stop focus on getting her to say, "I take you back" and focus on being a person she feels safe with again and wants to be with. You aren't going to be forgiven and taken back for at least 6 months to 2 years of being on your best behavior, meeting her needs, showing you have changed, and expecting NOTHING from her in return. This is your penance for your sins. You are just forgiven without having to earn it. Be patient and determined. Up to this point, you have given up WAY to easily.

This concept is one that so many people misunderstand and is foreign to some in many cases. Society teaches us to 'cleave unto' our spouse and put all of our trust in them. This is wrong, and will continue to be wrong until God stops churning out human beings and starts making robots instead.

From Dr. H:

TB,

At this point, I would use the holidays to your advantage. I would call her up and ask her if she would like to go shopping with you for the kids gifts. While out, take her out to lunch. During the time you are together, DO NOT TALK ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP AT ALL! Talk about things your WW likes to talk about. Does she like to talk politics, gossip, TV, etc? What TV shows does she watch? Watch them too and talk to her about them. Open up with her and tell her something funny that happened to you the other day. Just get her chatting with you. That is meeting a need, and it will make her feel closer to you. Keep doing it, and the cumulative affect after several months might add up.

Go shopping for her and give her a very thoughtful, but not necessarily expensive, gift. Maybe something to do to encourage her cooking hobby. I would also try and spend Christmas with her and the kids. Try and make it a wonderful experience. Again, keep the pressure off, just be the most fun, entertaining, likable person you can possibly be. Act like nothing is wrong. Keep a smile on your face. Fake it until you make it. Then hopefully after some good memories around the holidays, you can talk to her briefly about just putting the divorce on hold for just a bit. No expectations, nothing is changing, just put in on hold for a bit.

I promise you she is not 100% committed to divorce. She's probably 90-95% committed, but give her plenty of reason to cling to the hope of that last 5-10%. Slowly build up that 5-10% up to over 50% and she may just drop the divorce. Keep it up to 90% and she may become intimate with you again. Just keep building on that hope that she has but doesn't want to show you. Keep the pressure off and let her slowly lower her defenses with you again. Don't do anything that would jeopardize your goal and set yourself back, but if you do, don't give up. Just move past it, learn from it, and keep trying. There will be setbacks. It's how you deal with them that is the key. Will you throw a pity party and sleep with more women, or will you be right back fighting the good fight with determination?

I agree. I don't think she's 100% on board with the D. However, the chance is good that she will go through with it. I'm saying that because I have no way of knowing how far along the D is, or how invested in it she has become.

That shouldn't stop you from working on being the best you can be.

There is no downside to this. If she sees the change and decides to try again with you, that's great. If you are unable to recover your M, you are still better for having followed through on your commitment to better yourself.

So, I'm becoming a little confused on what I should and should do to start with. I was going to write out my NC letters and give them to her with begging for her to hold off on the divorce, wanting to make amends and serve her, with no expectations either way.

Or should I ask her to go Christmas shopping for the kids and not discuss our relationship? I'm not confident she'll even go for that.

Last night I left a gift she has asked for on her door step. No card or name as to who it's from.

I will change my description from intimate behavior to sex.

EDIT


STOP!!

mr_a,

you are discussing your issues on this thread and not the issues raised by the OP.

This is not the place for a discussion of your agreement with Dr Harley's programme, your experiences of sexual abuse or your feelings about living in a marriage without trust.

Can you combine the two? I'd say to start with asking her to go shopping. If she says yes, just shop. Don't get into relationship talk. Keep it light.

When you're done shopping, sit down with her somewhere and ask her to please consider holding off on the D. She may likely refuse. Regardless, give her the NC letters and tell her that you would like her to mail them for you.

She's going to be confused and suspicious of your motives. Explain to her that this is important for YOU as well as for her. That you are working on setting healthy boundaries for yourself and this will help you, and for her to see that you are trying to become the man she deserves.

How about "being physical"?

Ok, letters are written and awaiting envelops. In the mean time I'm going to read up on strengthening these boundaries.

Plan

1) Ask her to go Christmas shopping with you for the kids.

2a) If she accepts, chat her up like I said, take her out to lunch/dinner, and at the end of the night, discuss what I say in step 3.

2b) If she doesn't go shopping with you, discuss what I say in step 3 the next time you see her.

3) Tell her that your goal is to be a person she wants to be married to again. Tell her you know you completely screwed things up, you accept total responsibility for it, you are making changes in the hope that one day she'll want to be with you again. Tell her you don't expect her to take you back, you understand she probably doesn't think she ever would, but that will not deter you from your stated goal. Tell her you are not going to pressure her, you have no expectations of her, and that you are willing to wait as long as it takes to win her back. Tell her that you would prefer to hold off moving forward with the divorce in the chance that you might reconcile, but if not, you are still going to act like you are married, even after divorce. There will be no inappropriate relationships with other women, no pity parties where you drink and have any type of relationship with other women, nothing. You want to start things the right way and give her these NC letters to send out because that is the right thing for you to do (she doesn't need to send them out, but she should have the opportunity to should she want it). You let her know your new contact info so that those women could not contact you in the future if they wanted to. You also want her to have all your passwords to your phone, email, etc. so that if she ever were to consider a relationship with you in the future, you are going to be totally transparent. If she gets angry and vents during this conversation, YOU BITE YOUR LIP AND NOD SHAMEFULLY! Basically, you let her know that divorce is not what you want, you want her and the family, and you will do whatever it takes to keep the family together, and you will do all the heavy lifting. You know she loved you before and you are confident you can get that back with some hard work and sacrifice.

4) You do NOT initiate relationship talk again in the future. Only respond carefully if she does. Tread very lightly.

5) Get her a very thoughtful Christmas gift.

6) Figure out what her emotional needs are and try and meet the ones she allows you to meet (conversation, admiration-tell her how good her holiday cooking is, how nice she looks, how good a mother she is, etc.)

7) Figure out what her love busters are and avoid them like the plague.

8) Repeat 6&7 for up to 2 years and slowly make enough love bank deposits so that she falls in love with you again and agrees to reconcile with you. Be patient, and don't slip up.

Post what you think are her emotional needs and love busters and we can help you devise plans to make love bank deposits. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and start believing in your ability to save this.

EDIT: You might want to do step 3 in letter form. If you do it face to face, it might not come out right or sound confrontational. I would craft a letter here first and then give it to her alone with your NC letters, contact information, and passwords.

Allow me to give you the link to one of my favorite MB threads. It concerns the very topic above:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279757&page=1

Wow! I have been reading this thread in awe. So much of What TB has written could, easily have been written by my H (though, I know he isn't -- the circumstances are slightly different). The things he gained from the OW,...and, eventually coming out of the fog, etc.,not finding her what she was cracked up to be,..,and feeling as if he'd lost me for good.

The part about boundaries is SO true. My H admits to having (and has) weak boundaries. He continued to lie, cheat, during 2FRs,...but, even though he understood this, he would still tell me how it was (and is) such a terrible struggle for him to keep them in check, unless I show him this and such -- hold his hand. Ugh. He would often say he felt like he didn't know who he was anymore,...didn't like himself,...wanting a different life,...torn,...thought he was in a mid-life crisis. Talk about unstable ground.

My perspective became a vigilant matter of self-protection. He was no longer safe. He was an emotional wreck,...depressed,...very erratic (from one day or week to the next),... and very impulsive.

I choose to file for D as a means of protecting my family. I had no idea who this person was, anymore. He felt dangerous to me. And,...the woman he was with, felt dangerous,...bringing him to whole new lows, I had never, in my wildest dreams thought he could go.

He hated seeing the kids on a visitation schedule,...living a mile up the road from us (his loveshack),...driving by every morning (he says, in tears),...watching me mow the lawn and take care of the house as he drove by,....yet, he kept at it with the OW, because he felt it was hopeless,...felt he was worthless,...unwanted by me.

But,...prior to my filing,...he NEVER showed me he was done with her. He NEVER showed me he wanted me or the family. He just gave up. Left us.

Thing is,...I wanted him. I just had to draw the line in the sand,...and state NO MORE! No more other woman,..no more weak boundaries,...no more lies. I deserve better,..we deserve better,...the kids deserve better.

Now,...here's where it turns to the better.

He wrote me asking for a hold on the D. I was floored. I wrote back saying I didn't feel it was safe to do that. Told him,...maybe,...we could see if we could get back together post-D. He asked me what it would take and on what conditions I might be willing. I spelled it out to him,...and we made a 6mo plan, which included being separated, D on hold, court appointed kids visitations and fiances. For three months, we did the things we had on our plan. Including, him giving me access to PW's (while separated). We did the MB worksheets. We got together for nights out (and didn't talk about the A or mundane things). I invited him over for dinner, to watch a movie, he'd help with a home improvement, or do stuff for the kids, a night a week or so. We even took a family vacation!

Unfortunately, I discovered he'd kept her going,...had a sep bank account (which was a violation of the injunction),...and found several emails he'd written to her using a new account.

But, this time, I realized, I had a say in this. I still wanted him,...and I was willing to put up the fight. His saving in this (and where my willingness to do so, came from) was the messages he sent to her while we were doing our new plan, were all saying he wanted her to go away,...but she was awful about it,...and he had a really hard time telling her "no",..his boundaries were so weak, he couldn't do it. He tells me, now, he told her the nice things,....because he wanted to keep her as a "back up plan", in case he couldn't make it work with me. He needed me to stand up and hold his hand. Keep him from "doing the bad things".

Well,...I did just that. But it took him having to REALLY show he wanted me (he did) and to be done with her,...join forces with me,...be a united front to keep her out,...and he did. ...and I asked him if he would be willing to move back home....and he did.

He says, now, he feels I saved him. I'm still shell shocked and scared,...concerned about the boundaries....but, hopeful,...and willing to make improvements WITH him. He knows this is a chance. He knows I can easily put the D back on. I can keep the hold in place for up to two years.

My point is, it took him stepping up and saying he wanted me, setting up the plan for improvement with me, and showing that,..consistently,...slowly,..over days, weeks, months. It also took me saying I was willing to hold his hand,...even though, I was hurt and afraid.

NC letter, access to ALL and any forms of communications, transparency about day-to-day, interest shown in being with me, work with me, proving his intentions and feelings (honestly), showing he has understanding of what hurts he caused, showing remorse, apologizes to not just me, but other family members. Those were huge steps.

Daisy, thank you for sharing that.

So I just asked my wife to join me Christmas shopping for Santa gifts. This was her response:

"I got stocking gifts but otherwise wasn't going to get them anything else. I figure our families are buying them stuff. I told the girl this morning we are going to go shopping for a single mom with a 1 and 4 yr old who have nothing and the gird were ok with using their present money to buy for these poor girls.
It's only fair if u r there to see them open presents u bought them. So u can do more Santa at your home."

Okay, so shopping is out. How about calling her and asking if you could swing by when you're done with your (solo) shopping trip, that you've got something you'd like to give her. (The NC letters, but she doesn't need to know that up front.) Let her pick a time that is convenient for her, when she'll have a few uninterrupted minutes to talk with you.

Bob, it's starting to look that way.

Be aware that this is always going to be more about what you do than what you say, and more about what you do than what you feel. It will almost never be about feeling the right amount of remorse or contrition or whatever, nor about learning to express it properly.

It's about what you do. Focus on what to do.

(Folks here will know the difference and will let you know if you slip up. )

There is healing.
There is forgiveness.
This is possible for all of us. who seek those things.

That does not necessarily mean your marriage will survive.
Can you accept the fact that you may have caused too much damage for the marriage to survive, but there is still hope for you as a person?

I wouldn't view this as rejection. It's more like she's completely oblivious to your intentions. I would definitely craft a letter (from step #3 of my plan) and post it and your NC letters here, and then give them to her ASAP, so your intentions are crystal clear about doing whatever it takes to save your marriage and family. So far over the past 4 months you have vascillated back and forth about wanting to stay married by your actions, and it is time to start putting on a consistent front about what you want. This is where you make your stand. Make it now and continue to steadily fight to win her back. It is a marathon, not a sprint.

From your first post on this thread:



I am conflicted about helping you.
Conflicted because, if your wife says she is "done", I tend to respect that decision from a BW or BH.

Particularly when "I am done" is spoken with emotional indifference.

Still, follow the good advice you've been given.
Shut up the demands of your Taker.
(Your Taker loves and protects you, not your BW)
Listen to your Giver.
(Your Giver loves and protects your wife)
Throw away your expectations.
Be humbled.

It is infuriating when a serial infidel (you, T-Bob) speaks of "trust" in their very first post.
No one with a brain ought to trust you.

And trust is NOT love.
You are incorrect.
Your BW might love you, but it should be a long time (maybe 5 years or longer) before she ought trust you.

That "glimmer of hope" comment .... is your Taker speaking.
Your Taker has expectations.
Hope glimmering and trust coming up with the sun, all that stuff, is you wanting results prior to efforts.

If your wife were to post to us and say : "I am done".
I would support her.
Why?
Because the BETRAYED SPOUSE has that option.
To leave the broken marriage with his/her head held high.
It's her call.

Your job is to behave in such a way that causes her to re-think that decision.