KayC, thanks so much for that insightful response. I don't know how you picked up on that key element from the brief description of my situation but you stated the sentiment that was rattling around in the back of my mind: She looking for a "replacement." Well, actually I was considering myself more of an "upgrade" but you get the drift, lol. I actually felt a couple of times like I was ultimately being expected to step into a certain role. And all that in a matter of a few short weeks.
Anyway, with your assessment I think I'll try to back away as gracefully as possible. I actually did get a text from her Monday. She was cool and conciliatory and not putting pressure on me or anything; but I will try to just fade off into the sunset. Easier said than done because the SF was the best I've ever had without question (and yes that's a reflection of my M'd life, sad but true). However, you're totally right, KCS, I'm strapping on the Reeboks.

Opt

Schtoop!! Always good to see you, man, even if it is just like looking in the mirror, lol!

Yeaaaaaaah, no. After further reflection I don't think I'm missing out on any sipping-tea-on-the-porch-at-70-together type of relationship. Besides, like Kaycee said, "if it's real it will keep." Who knows what happens in a year once things have gone around once or twice?

You know I'm going to try to hold you back on that one. . Are you still in the 'infatuation' stage (thanks AGG from another thread)? Anyway I think the whole thing takes on an entirely new dimension once the kids are introduced. Why don't you just continue to enjoy each other for a while? The kids will always be there. You can't be all kissy/lovey-dovey in front of them anyway, right?
On a side note: My bonehead exww had a date on the night before thanksgiving and you know what she did? She invited him to family dinner for the next day (the loser had "no place to go," gmab)!! Her whole family and my kids were there of course. Words can't even describe my horror. I had a very serious talk with the kids after that.

Dude you're always welcome here! The beer's in the fridge, just keep your boots off my coffee table!

Yeah, I was pretty much honest and not really impressed with her response to that. She was not happy when I said I couldn't promise exclusivity. She was real real sweet, right up until when she wasn't so sweet. I'll never forget the good times though, kwim?

Yeah, I had dinner with the woman I met volunteering on Thanksgiving. We had a great time. She's way more conservative, mature, a bit older than me, cute and in good shape, pretty eyes, classy. She's been D'd 10 years and seems to have a good handle on the whole dating situation. We're going to play pool on Sunday afternoon.

A-frickin'-men brother!

Opt

Opt buddy, at the risk of sounding like a prude, are you kidding us here?? Two weeks after the first date and you are at the SF stage? Not to be a pot calling the kettle black , but when you are approaching a relationship this way, you hopefully know a priori that this will be a physical relationship rather than one that leads to anything meaningful in the longterm. Right? I have yet to see a relationship that turns sexual this quickly lead to anything good down the line.

AGG

AGG not to sound like a dog, but what can I say? One thing lead to another.
However, I appreciate your advice. I will show my ignorance here though: why does a quick jump to physical intimacy preclude a meaningful relationship?
Be gentle. I truly want to understand this and didn't date much before I got married, haven't had many "partners."
Opt

Yup, I get that .


I didn't have many partners before I got married either, and after divorce, I somehow still viewed sex as a matter of "scoring" (sorry to any ladies that are reading). So, the sooner, the better, I thought. Then I started realizing that I was having sex with women whom I really did not know well enough to be having sex with (does that make sense?), but it was kinda too late to slow down (the horse was out of the barn, so to speak). And, I noticed that it was difficult to build any emotional intimacy once physical intimacy has been introduced.

So I read a ton of books, like "If the Buddha Dated", "Boundaries in Dating", and "Passionate Marriage", and became a convert. I started believing and understanding that emotional intimacy should precede physical intimacy, and that sexual bonding should be one of the last ways in which you bond with your partner, not the first. Another phrase I heard that I agree with is that the best sex starts between the ears, not between the legs.

None of this obviously proves that early sex will prevent a good longterm relationship. It just means that once you let that genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in, and in many ways, you'll be in over your head. I mean if you are already having sex, aren't you somewhat committed to the other person? Haven't you made some sort of promises? All to a person whom you really hardly know, despite what your hormones may be telling you.

From my personal experiences in dating, I found that if I got to know someone gradually, became exclusive after a month or two, and then allowed intimacy to take place after three months or so, that the sex was actually much better than if we took a shortcut. I was bonding fully with that woman, not just physically, and that made a huge difference for me.

YMMV of course.

Here is a good quote from some researchers:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/28/AR2010102808034.html

And another article:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Make-Your-Relationship-Last---Delay-Sex&id=3801416

AGG

Opt

BOUNDARIES

BOUNDARIES

BOUNDARIES


Go back and re-read.....(and ya might want to pick up the dating version like AGG suggested...... )

And while you continue learning and growing.......think on this

What does making love mean to you?

What are you conveying to your partner when you engage in love making?

Not

Ps....knucklehead.......{{{{Opt}}}}

I applaud your honesty and candor here. One thing that sex does is cloud the thinking. It can often be used (by women) as a tool for manipulation...trying to reel him in hook, line and sinker. Another obvious reason to avoid it. Not to mention there's too many things to catch out there and it's harder than you'd think to know who you can trust. Be careful and go slower! Try to just enjoy yourself and get to know the person/s you are dating. Time enough for all the rest.

BTW, it's easier for me to be objective with OTHER people's situations, much harder when I'm in it! LOL

But hey, you must be doing pretty well, I don't even run across people I'd remotely want to have sex with! I'm surprised she put out so fast, unless she was trying to reel you in, because women are attracted primarily through their emotions, rather than visual like men...I'm sure it's a combination for both, but still it's different for men and women. And I'm sure she did want to upgrade with her replacement, who wouldn't? I'd just be leery of anyone that wanted to cash in so fast. Something to be said for taking time...

Ma-a-a-a-a-a-ybe I shouldn't have said anything. . . but then again think of all the fun we would have missed!

I have the kids tonight so I can't respond to these posts now, but I want to say I sure do appreciate all the input. I'm a little embarrassed and officially all of the dopamine and serotonin has now drained out of my system, lol. But, I've found from this board that I learn more from openness and honesty (there's a concept). I respect people's opinions here (even if it's brutal) and I appreciate the time you folks spend to try to save me from future trouble.

opt

I'm staying out of this one.

Now Opt, I didn't scare ya did I???....

(I actually meant to put a smiley behind the "knucklehead"..... )

Do you remember about a year ago when Lexxy asked you a really hard question?


That's why I asked the above questions. I realize you're dipping your toes into the dating world. It's kind of your oyster right now....

But the thing to remember while you are enjoying the buffet, is what is important to YOU. Those are the things that that you put boundaries on.

I don't know if you have seen this, but a boundary is not the thing you cherish, its the PROTECTION you put around those things. Sex is all new and quite available right now, but instead of remember AFTERWARD what it means to you, the importance of it, its good to figure that out NOW, so you can defend it when it comes around the next time......

It's all a part of your growth......

Keep posting and please be forthcoming. Its good to have a sounding board during this time. And in all honesty, we all make mistakes and do stupid things....even ESPECIALLY me...

I'm glad to hear you and the kids are doing well....and about WXW- why am I NOT surprised....

Thank God you are such a wonderful dad!!!!! Have a wonderful holiday.....

Not

Folks were nice enough to give their input so I'll try to respond in kind, without getting bogged down in the details. It sounds like pretty much a chorus and I would expect no less since the philosophy on this issue around here is pretty clear and goes along with building a strong life-long relationship; it is Marriage Builders after all. I appreciate the input because as I stated when I started this thread, one of my concerns was how to apply the concepts, which I believe in, to the dating/after divorce stage. You folks have done a very good job of making clear how that is done, at least as for as the physical part of a dating relationship. I'm just glad I didn't know then what I know now.

@AGG: I appreciate your sharing your experience with me. I will definitely read those books. I am an avid reader when it comes to something that can help me understand something I'm interested in. I didn't know there was a Boundaries in Dating book, but Not2Fun turned me on to the basic version and it has been a big influence. The articles are excellent and mean even more since you referred them.

@Not: those are very insightful questions. I will do some more reading. And plenty of thinking as I move forward. Promise.

@KayC: In retrospect there were probably some "reeling in" attempts going on. Of course there's always the possibility that I'm just that irresistible, .
While my Boundaries may be weak in some areas, they are also exactly what saved me from being reeled in however. The strength I've gained in myself from going through the nightmare of infidelity and divorce, with support and reflection, gave me the power to simply move on when it became clear things weren't right. No self-guessing, just self-protection.

@Schtoop: h-ha, luvya, man!

@not again: yeah, I must be a knucklehead for sure because I'm just not seeing what Lexxxy's question has to do with my situation now. Frankly, I'm not sure I ever quite grasped it in the first place. At the time I think she was saying my infidelity from before wasn't a big deal then but ww's was in the present (highlighting the double standard).
~You know I always appreciate what you have to say and I know you have my best interests in mind. I'd be very worried about you if you dropped a grain of sugar on anything you said! [Geez did you call it about the exWW, huh?, thanks so much for the heads-up on that some months ago; made it so much easier to handle, especially since I had already alerted the kids about what to expect]. ...I don't always feel like a good Dad, but I'm doing my best. Definitely keeping all this drama away from them, lol.

I will continue to post. I have grown a thick skin and, again, I appreciate the help. Even if some of this doesn't get through my thick skull right away, there maybe someone in the future who reads this thread and fully benefits.

Not sure where I will go in the dating world next. However, I am definitely armed with valuable insight.


Thanks again, friends.

Opt

Yes, she was sort of saying that. But if you remember, Pep came back and highlighted it and said "EXCELLENT QUESTION!!".

Not just because of highlighting the double standard, but also because it was a good question. A question meant to make you think of the "Why" of it.

See, when you think of what sex means to you, the value you place on it, it is THEN that you start to make you boundaries around it and move to protect it. This applies to sex whether or not you are married. Unless, of course, your a dog.....

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a downer. And I'm really not even trying to bust your chops to much about what did happen. Like I said, we all make mistakes....and you are going to, too. But its when we LEARN from those mistakes that we grow....


It's would be much easier to just let do what you want, much like our kids. However, if I didn't care, I wouldn't say anything at all. You won't see me comment too much about your dating adventures. After all, this is one area I know NOTHING about....

Heck, even my "sex" advice might be a bit stricter than most, but then again, I've only had one partner.....

But I do think you want to grow from all that you have been through, and if you ever think my advice or thoughts aren't for you, you can say so.....I won't bite....



It's because I truly believe that your WxW is not your typical wayward. If she were, even without learning much about life, she wouldn't have dared engaged in another affair after her first one. Just take a look over on the OC board (which btw, I think you have a lot to offer over there with your experience...). It truly takes a saint to accept an OC. And yes, that is a huge compliment directed towards you, my friend.



This is good, though remember, kids pick up much more than we think they do......they are always watching, learning and soaking up what us parents do.

Cheers and have a great holiday!!!!!

Not

Not, as always I appreciate your time and effort. You have yet to lead me astray. Your advice (like others' here) is often challenging, but I like a challenge and I think I'm up for it.

You're right, I need to get over to the OC board. D9 is growing up and there will be some challenges there; I'll need help for sure. I feel like I need to get a couple of things behind me first (like the first period of being single, reestablishing my life, getting through the holidays, etc.). And I truly appreciate the sentiment, but I am no saint.

In the meantime, I was a little cavalier with the kids about the dating. They both saw her picture on the phone and knew when I was talking to her a few times. I don't think any of that is necessary, in retrospect. I'll be keeping my private life much more private in the future. I think the kids need to understand my devotion to them.

Hey NOT, you've known my sitch for a long time. You might be interested to know that OM#1 has essentially disappeared from the neighborhood. I have literally not seen his face since July 3rd when I gave him a "you disgust me, you cockroach" look (and he subsequently fired a bottle rocket at my house, lol). OM#2, pretty much the same; funny how he never wants to sit on his porch anymore now that Wexw moved out. I don't know if he still hangs around with her. I think he's moved on, lol. I guess wXw was more attractive with a ring on her finger.

Anyway, you have great holidays too, n2f! (((hugs)))

Opt

I'm kind of curious on your take on this one, not that it applies to my sitch anytime soon. For me, I would want to get my kids acclimated for lack of a better term to their father having adult female friends, dating, etc. So that when they do eventually meet one of these women that it's not unexpected and a shock. But that's just me and what I thought when I read your post.

I think it's possible to show your kids how devoted you are to them and at the same time, help them realize that the circumstances have changed and dad is getting out there, meeting new people. Shrug, what's your take on it? I know conventional MB wisdom is to isolate the kids from your dating life and I understand that to a point (not having them meet every girl you go out with) but why prevent them from knowing you're dating at all? Just curious my friend!

Travis

No, you have it right Travis. I appreciate your interest.
Just before the D was final I had a talk with both kids to let them know I would probably start dating and asked how they felt about that. I told them (mostly daughter) that Daddy's need to spend time with other adults from time to time. (Can't remember exactly what I said). I told her I would be going out with women, but that she not ever lose her place as my little girl. I wanted them to know there would be times when I wasn't as available (like if I was out on a date) because up till that point they were coming and going with little regard to the custody schedule, which was fine. But I said nothing was more important to me than them, so not to feel nervous about losing me or anything. Get my drift?

So, this latest episode, I think I was just a little to revealing; not that I feel a need to be secretive. In fact S14 asked today if I was still going out with "T." I said no it didn't work out and he asked why. I said she was trying to get too serious and I wasn't ready for that. He asked if I had kissed her and I said yes; I didn't see any need to lie (I didn't elaborate, lol). Any further questions would have gotten a "Nanyabusiness." ~~ I did the best I could.

Opt

Sounds good Opt, was just curious as to your take on it. Sounds like you have it down pat. Thanks!

Travis

Mmmmmmm I don't think so, but I sure am trying.

Opt

i am a fairly newbie in saa, but headed to d soon i believe. just wanted to commend your attitude regarding your future, and your children.
my entire guise of staying married to ws has for a long time, been our children. i am now realizing that a man who behaves this way is not really deserving of someone as special as ME .
i did not cause this separation/impending d and i am confronting my own part in our lousy relationship. sadly cathartic, reading a great deal, praying even more and learning to accept the reality-all difficult with so much unknown ahead of me and my children.
it is refreshing to get a male perspective from someone who truly cares about his children.
best of luck to you!

'Atta girl!

Thanks so much for the encouragement. It means a lot, truly it does, regardless of your experience with MB. I fall short in a lot of categories, but I suppose I could do worse. When it comes to the kids, I was blessed with the advice here that "someone has to be the parent with integrity and that ain't gonna be a wayward" (paraphrasing). I feel that responsibility on an awesome scale. I can't change that I married someone with immaturity to spare and no reason to anticipate any positive changes. But I can eliminate my immature behaviors and selfishness. And it's hard not to be selfish when you hold yourself in such high esteem, lol; but I try.

Thanks again MomInPink.

Opt

I was reading this thread and noted this Fred. Its good news to hear that formula, and I am no expert, but it does seem to be about right.

Someone whom I know who leads an AA group involving all substance abuse, say that "With the 12 steps and God, anything is possible". We talked about how it was important to include both things, because God is so loosely interperted,<sp>, and I have first hand experience in that. We need to be fully grounded, but reaching up, grounded being the first priority IMO, or we can not see up.

Well what came first to mind, when I saw the formula, was what I read some years ago in behavioral studies, that if you had a problem for 1 year, it would take a year to reverse its effects habitually. This of course is a depressing place to come from if you are trying to examine yourself with a microscope, because you try to fix it all, and think and feel differently, well, hehe, you will be going in a constant spiral as every revelation shows us we have made poor judgements, based on our limited knowledge, and our emotions. More self doubt, based on our own examination of ourselves, and our desire to be and do what is right, well it can drive us backwards in self-esteem and worth.

So that is where we must go to God for our value right? Trust Him that we are worthy of inner peace? I would hazard a guess that in that trust that we ARE loved and worthy we will also turn to trusting his guidance within our conscience also.

When I first read the 1 year to fix 1 year issue, I was 23. At the time I felt there were so many things I needed to 'Fix" about myself, and was willing to wait to really live for 23 more years. Ok, I can hear you laughing now, , I know, I really was taking things too seriuos. But eventually I got over it, and lighted up, and relaxed, and trusted God that my mistakes were made with the best of intentions, and that was what really counted, the intentions of my heart.


Anyway, just wanted to comment on formulas, and express how much relying on God and trusting Him for my future worked, and works better that anything I could come up with, examining myself.

Hope things are well with you, you too Opt, and anyone reading