Come on serious really !!!!!

Still having contact with ow , even if you are telling your wife is like throwing another dagger into her heart. How much more do expect her to endure ????

You should be the one telling her & putting into action what you are going to do to prevent this from occurring again.

Don't expect her to come up with ideas to prevent your behavior. Doing what she says.

Your not contributing to EP's on your own. This only enforces the idea that she is forcing you to do this. Not that you want to protect her & your marriage too.

I have this same issue with my WH, He says he wants to be here, he says he wants to make it work, but I'm the one coming up with the EP's. He's following them but in the same breath it's not us working together & I feel like he's only doing it because I asked him to. Which is great don't get me wrong. But they would hold more weight & make recovery a little smoother if he had some of his own ideas & ep's he has put into place & are following.

Bottom line !!!!!


DON'T JUST TELL HER ,SHOW HER !!!!!!
DO THE WORK COME UP WITH EP IDEAS ON YOUR OWN & CUT ALL CONTACT ASAP !

The two years is mentioned only in conjunction with Plan B. And only to suggest that if the affair is not dead within 2 years, there is nothing to save and the BS should just divorce.

The issue I see with waiting 2 years to make a decision is that the BS is not likely to put 100% into a marriage she isn't resolved to save. Therefore, the demise of the marriage would be a self fulfilling prophecy. It really needs to be all or nothing. And there is nothing wrong with deciding to move on.

On the other hand, if a BS decides to try to save the marriage and the WS doesn't get fully on board, she can still leave the marriage.

I think the thing that strikes me is "how long before we should make the decision?"

I have to say that is an incredibly selfish and non repentant statement in my mind. I think waiting till hell freezes over for her to come to grips isn't to long. It seems you need a timeline.
Maybe thinking this is her decision to make and giving her whatever time she needs to move forward would be more loving and caring.

In truth it sounds more like you wanting to put limits on what you are willing to endure.

hi seriously ws,

I am a BS and I also felt a lot of what your wife is feeling, It's only been a month since your wife found out all that she believed in is gone, it's hard for her to understand that her husband was so willing to throw all she held dear away for someone else......
Right now she feels devastated and her belief system and trust systems are gone.....she now knows she is married to a man that will lie and make decisions that aren't in her best interest...................those are the facts.........
She is trying to hang on to something, she doesn't know what that is anymore, she is trying to make sense out of someone else's decisions and there is no reason she can come up with that seems right in the logic side of life, how could your lives together mean so little to you, she just can't grasp that thought.......
You need to do everything in your power at this point to put all the extra ordinary precautions in place...........you need to have absolutely no contact with the OW, you don't talk to her, you don't see her, you don't read anything from her, you change all the ways she could possibly be in contact with you, you give your wife all access to any communication devices.
You put a GPS on your car on your person what ever it takes........
You make sure she always knows your whereabouts. You go to therapy yourself to make sure this kind of thing never happens again..........
You honestly answer any questions she might have, you never blame your wife for your decisions, because you know this didn't have anything to do with her, it was your decision, no one held a gun to your head, it was something in you that made you capable of this.............
You meet all her needs for now.............even if you don't get anything back, your actions need to speak for you now.......your word mean nothing right now........
You never let her down again, you say something you stand behind that, don't give her any reason to take any steps backwards..........
This is a long road, but if you love your wife and family nothing is to much.......
I think you will see with the effort you put in now will in the long term be the best decisions you will ever make in your life............I can see that you are that great man behind a bad decision and that you can do and get back to that........
PROVE THAT TO HER AND YOU..............

How about this; because you love your spouse, and you have just ripped their heart out, threw it on the floor, jumped up and down on it, then dropped your pants, squatted over it, and took a big, steamy crap.

It's called remorse, and it's called just compensation.

It's called living for now and tomorrow from THIS MOMENT.


Well, it shouldn't be "punishment." However... here's justice for you; your wife didn't get to choose to f(*& the marriage up beyond all belief. She didn't get to choose to go through the most traumatic experience she could ever imagine. She didn't get to choose to have her entire life polluted with the taint of an affair.

You decided that.

As my beautiful Indian mother always told me; "What do you mean 'we,' white man?"


This isn't a POJA situation pal. Glad you've decided to work it out, but it don't work without her, and it's not a we, it's a she. Get used to it.



How's this for a possible scenario; your BW taking "separation" as an opportunity for her to date. Sound appealing? That's why I wanted out - revenge. That's why a woman I worked with separated from her WH - revenge. FWW didn't let me out. She saved us both from complications. The woman I work with? Fortunately, the whole "dating" thing didn't feel right to her, and she decided to reconcile with her WH.

Separation is successful if divorce is the goal.


You are no example yet, bud. Give that time and action.

Remember, you chose this pain, your wife did not.

Ditto hhh

I am a recently betrayed husband, as well as a decade ago wayward husband. I've lived both sides, and somehow through the grace of God, found a way to keep a 20 year marriage together. Not to be cruel here, but you probably have no idea of the place you have put your wife emotionally. The deepest, darkest pit in hell is only the beginning of the place you have shoved her into.

You haven't described what led to the affair. What you need to do is determine what was lacking in yourself and in your marriage to commit the affair. Nine months is a long time to willfully and deliberately make the affair happen.

My WS said she couldn't understand how she got to where she was at; ie going from an "innocent" friendship, to an EA, to a PA, then to a plan where her and the OM would divorce from their respective spouses and live their fantasy life. Like you, she got to where she was at by deliberately leading herself into the pit. A WS knows exactly how they got there and why they allowed it to continue.

As a WH myself, I look back and see that my top emotional need was admiration from others. I jumped in hook-line-and sinker when a woman at work pursued me. I should have had the character to defend my marriage, but I put my wants before protecting my wife.

So, the first priority is to find out why you cheated for so long. The hardest part for me, having been on both sides, is the painstaking deception that is played on the BS. In my experiences, it is the lying part that is the most damaging. It brings about a slow death to your soul, as well as your wife's soul. When she is made aware of it, the cancer takes hold, and her heart and soul must fight for their very survival.

Like me as the BS, I started reviewing in my head, the dates and times she was away overnight for "work." I thought about helping her pack, and holding the kids while she drove off for her overnighters. After I found out, I thought to myself, what kind of person is she to deceive her husband and family, and not have a moral fiber in her body to look us all in the eyes as she drove off to secretly see the OM?

You have placed your family up as collateral on a loan that is now due in full. This is no longer about you at all. Your needs mean nothing. You don't have the right to any needs in the relationship. You must give her space to go back and review your lies. Answer every question in as much detail as she wants to hear. And show her through your actions, that you will circle the globe if that is what she needs.

You are in the fight for your life, that frankly, you have little control over now. Stand up and admit your every mistake, be the best man you can be for your wife through your actions, and follow all of the principles here on this site. This could end up being the biggest character building exercise of your life. And your future will be determined by how much love and forgiveness you wife is capable of giving you. It's not a place she should be forced into...

I gotta say,...that contact letter is just too nice. Indulgence? If I was an OW and was told I was an indulgence, I'd be flattered. It implies the wife was chopped liver. No,.... here's a better one....the last one my H wrote to OW (with my help!).


From here on out, this is the only communication you will receive from me - forever. I love my wife ... it took me too long to realize just how much I love her. I have recommitted to my life and relationship with her. She is the best thing that ever happened to me, and I am so very grateful she still wants me. I misled you - and, for that, I am sorry.


I was actually, not too happy with the sorry part. It should have just been,..."I misled you."

He also changed his phone # (a big step and was difficult to get work to do it), he removed BB messenger (a common way they communicated), gave me pw to all internet communications, blocked her on FB....yet, it still didn't stop her from sending messages to both me and him after that. The ones to him were under the radar to his work account, which I don't (can't) have access to. He DID show me when she did it -- or, at least, I have to trust that he did for all of them that he got. Unfortunately, even with these EP measures, the OW currently has access to people (realtives) that COULD give her his new ph#,...or, if he blocks her number, she could still call from a different number to get around that. Same with the email.

MY POINT is,...no matter the EP's (though they SHOULD be in place), it doesn't prevent the possibility of contact being made, if the OW is persistent. It's more important to have a plan of action (discussed and laid out, together, with your wife) if/when OW happens to work around any of the EP's,..and your wife HAS to be able to clearly see (honestly and transparently) proof that's it's safe to trust you in that circumstance,... such as being in the vicinity of the OW, etc.

Putting the EP's in place, may not change her feelings just yet, but it WILL show your intentions to keep the affair out of your marriage,...and where your feelings are about your wife (as well as the OW) right now. I cannot put enough emphasis on just how important that step is.

I agree with Delta about the separation giving the BS some space to get their bearings. I felt I had to, in my case. He seemed very unstable, either way. It wasn't meant as a punishment. However, I understand the MB insistence that it shouldn't happen and could lead to a relapse. It did, actually, in my case (even though I had put the D on hold). However, the separation also gave him better understanding of how it would be if we DID divorce (kids in shifts, living without the comforts of a family, or a wife -- and all of the EN's I already fulfilled for him). It was ultimately the part that made him really see and feel the consequences, for himself...and not just see the pain I was feeling, by wanting to push him away. By doing so, he experienced reality (for the most part),...the loss of all of the things he took for granted and discovered how worthless it would be if he was to throw it all away for what he was getting (or not getting -- or thought he would get) with OW. I became far more valuable to him than I was before.

I'm not saying that's what you should do, but I think it's important to really take yourself there,...in thought, and relay your understanding of that "missing" to your wife. In it, is the truth of what she means to you. The affair degraded how she feels about how you valued her (or didn't value her).

BUT...separation is not recommended by DR HARLEY and that is what this man is here for. He didn't come here for our personal opinions. Separation only increases the risk of divorce. It adds a whole new layer of problems to the stack. Just because a couple here did and lived to tell the tale does not mean it is advisable. Dr Harley DOES NOT advise it and that is what we are all here for: Dr Harley's advice. Our best thinking screwed up our marriages.

I know that everyone wants to be helpful but is very confusing to newcomers to come here and be given conflicting advice that is often based on personal opinions. I try not to do that because my best thinking screwed up my marriage. When I came here in 2001 everyone was giving their own personal philosophies to newcomers as a substitute for Marriage Builders and as a result, no one knew about MB and got any help for their marriage.

Give her space from YOUR needs, and don't smother her with your newfound remorse and "love." But as the Dr. advises, try not to physically separate. Remember that any "love" you show right now will be seen and felt as disingenuous.

@MelodyLane -- I agree with you. That's why I said he shouldn't do it, but rather go there only in thought,...in order to gain the understanding of what the damage of his actions can really lead to,...the true reality of D,...not just the fantasy of D or the pleasing notion of having both wife and mistress.

I like Wisertoday's advice about giving her space from her needs (and his VERY insightful post being both the BS and the WS)-- A LOT!

Thank you.

This is what concerns me...and the fact that seriouslyWS hasn't responded to the NC letter advice he has gotten and also the fact that he is waiting another week to change his number. In fact, I am wondering why after receiving multiple phone calls and text messages from her over the course of the last few weeks, he didn't think to change this on his own??

Despite your first long post about how much you need to change and you are suicidal over the pain you caused your BW, etc, I don't think you really GET what this has done to her...

NC & NCL is the first step of a WS demonstrating the changes (not proclamations of remorse, etc) he is willing to make towards just compensation of the BS, seriously. You need to step up to the plate here.

Hi SWS. Sorry you ended up here, but we'll try to help you and Seriously.

You and your wife's posts are taking me back to D day and the days soon after. GloveOil sounded alot like you, very depressed, remorseful, willing to do whatever it took to heal our marriage from the damage he caused.

The one thing that helped the most for us was counseling with a pro-MB counselor. I could say things to him there with her support that I couldn't when we were alone. It also helped that GO ACTIVELY sought recovery, by reading books with me, making changes to his numbers, emails, etc., so the OW couldn't contact him.

Things that slowed our recovery down: his inability to see the OW as anything other than a victim (his victim, her husband's victim, her parents' victim). He even took a phone call from her 2 weeks after D day where she said she was just calling to warn him that her husband came home the night before drunk and abusive, saying he was going to make trouble for my DH at work. Wasn't that nice of her? Blaming her husband for being mad about the A? Then my DH proceeded to obsess about what kind of retribution this poor man was going to implement in our lives instead of trying to rectify the damage that she and he had already caused. You need to be very careful that the sorrow you feel does not extend to the OW. Your wife will sense that and interpret it as you still caring about her.

There are alot of other things I can say, but first I need to hear that you have established no contact solidly (Daisy, I loved your version of NC letter; it is exactly what all BS want to hear from the WS), and you are reading Surviving an Affair. In addition, 27 hours of undivided attention time needs to be scheduled in your lives. I know you are away from home right now, but this can still be accomplished over the phone, via email, Skype, etc. Make your DW feel like she is all you are thinking about.

The idea of sending an actual letter is something I just got yesterday. One was sent today. Initially I had a phone conversation with the OW in front of my wife. After the initial no contact phone call, the renewed contact with me was only after my wife began contacting her to get more details about the A. In any case, an NC, approved by my wife has been sent as of 5 minutes ago. I am completely open to ways to "step up to the plate" that's what I'm here for. Thanks for the help on this path.

What are you willing to do to reconcile?

1)You have exposed a significant character flaw in yourself. What do you plan on doing to correct this deficiency? What precautions are you willing to put in place?

2) You have done serious damage to your credibility. What do you plan on doing to restore trust? It takes years to build up trust and seconds to destroy it. Are you capable of the discipline necessary regarding your behavior to rebuild trust?

3) Are you willing to NEVER flirt with another woman?

If you are willing to take extraordinary precautions for the rest of your life your wife may consider trusting you again. If you have the attitude that you are sorry now and are looking for a quick fix, I think she will sense that and not want to risk trusting you (and in return expose herself to being hurt) again.

You have a long road ahead of you. Are you ready for the journey? The resources and information are available. Are you ready to commit to doing what is needed to restore your credibility and your marriage?

MelodyLane is right.

If your BW chooses to remain married to you, it will not benefit either of you or your marriage to be separated.

When I counseled with MB (Steve Harley), he told me he understood why I booted my H out, but if (big if) I wanted my marriage to recover, H needed to move back in so we could begin that process.

I was just sharing with you the reasons I wanted to separate so you could consider some of things going your W's mind.

It's likely she'll want everything to do with you and then nothing to do with you all in a day. Maybe several times a day.

By the way, have you been 100% honest and open about your A? Is there any other detail -- minor or major -- your W should know? Anything you're holding back?

Great job on the NC letter.

But that was only part of what I was addressing when I mentioned "stepping up to the plate".

I was also pressing you to change your phone number sooner than a week (it should have been done weeks ago!) because it is incredibly disrespectful and painful for your BW to have to endure even one more day of this skank's continued attempts to contact you.

Oh, and let us be very clear that your W's FB message to OW is NOT the reason that the she has continued to text and call you. It is a common theme for a leach of an OW to cling on to any reason to make contact again. That is why it is strongly encouraged to change all the ways communication was made here on this site.

The other thing I was hoping that you would examine is why you didn't change your phone number yourself after several weeks of attempted contact by OW...especially given your first post that emphasizes how motivated you are to do whatever you can to repair your M and the pain you have caused your W?

The only reason I am pointing this out is...oftentimes the WH has allowed the OW to meet the EN for admiration and I am going to ask you to consider that you were still getting a zing of admiration/attention from the texts/calls. This is something that you are going to have to think about when developing your EPs to prevent another affair.

ITA. Unfortunately, her message to OW on FB gave OW a reason to contact you.
Change your number. It won't be the first time a company has had an employee have to change a personal contact number. I'm sure they can handle it.

Very true, SusieQ, about the "zing" they must feel, and the OW seeking/finding any reason to cling on,...and attempt to get attention or, so called, "closure",...expressing how sorry they are, or whatever.

My H had a BIG problem with telling OW to go away in the way that he really needed to,..and that was to be MEAN to her. I would have LOVED to have seen him do it,...but, instead he was all protective of her about it, claiming he was the one at fault, not her, etc.. Why? Because of his need for admiration. He didn't want her to think he thought bad of her (and wanted me to only see his fault, not hers). He didn't want her to see him as the baddie he really was (using her and his wife), or have her think ill of him, because he was so afraid I wouldn't take him back. He wanted to keep her in the wings in case I didn't. So what did he do? He made promises to her to appease her and give her hope. He would tell her how hard it was for him to say goodbye and be apart from her (claiming he didn't like doing it, but it was "the right thing" to do). He'd tell her I had all access to his emails, and then he'd write to her using a completely different account I wasn't aware of.

What I'm getting at, SWS,...take responsibility and fault, but also SIDE WITH YOUR WIFE regarding OW. Get mean,...get mad at OW,...let her know how unwanted she is. Get untied with your wife to keep OW OUT -- for good!

It's sad that the BS is the last one to be defended in all of this. My WW defended the OM up until the very end, when we made big strides in counseling. Not only are we lied to, but we have to endure hearing how the OM/OW is a neat, wonderful, person with lots of character! It makes me sick thinking about it.

I sometimes felt like I was a puppy getting kicked by his owner........