I have thought about talking to the doctor but have not done it because my attorney is not sure there will be a positive outcome.

I don't know enough about alcoholism to know if she is an alcoholic. If I look at the vicodin use over the last 3 years it has steadily increased. I believe she is at a point now where she can't get more through her doctor so she is amplifying the affect by mixing it with the alcohol.

Sbt
You wrote this back in october.

2500/365=almost 7 a day. How did you find this info out? Is it the same Dr. or different Dr.s? What is the medical condition these were prescribed for? What is the dosage per pill? I did a little research and found this.
100 mg's of hydrocodone itself may not be dangerous, but the thing with Vicodin is that it contains acetaminophen (Tylenol) and the hydrocodone dose is limited by the acetaminophen dose. You can take a max of 4 gm (4,000mgs) of acetaminophen in a 24 hr period. Depending on the strength of the acetaminophen (APAP) in your Vicodin, you may not be able to get 100 mg of the hydrocodone.
That can cause serious health issues including liver damage. Add alcohol to the mix and you have a serious problem. Google liver damage symptoms and see if it sounds like your wife.

Or she is just getting vicodin (or another drug) someplace else.

PI: Any attorney should have reputable PI contacts/referrals they can give you. You may not need this info for divorce action in a no fault state, but don't you want to know for your own decision-making what's going on?

I think talking to the Dr. may be ill-advised. Because of privacy laws, your wife's Dr. won't discuss her case with you without her signing a release allowing him to do so.

One way to try to track her drug use is to find out if she's using multiple doctors or multiple pharmacies to get the Vicodin from.....if so, that may be where your attorney can help you with determining if you can show a pattern of medication abuse usable in court.

I'd worry about sharing 50/50 custody with someone using that amount of meds and drinking...then driving with your kids, or even just being responsible for them.

Is your wife working? Is she self-supporting?

No. She has an post graduate education but she is a stay at home mom.

The rate is actually twice that for the last 6 months (12-14 per day, almost 5000 for 2010). They have 5mg hydrocodone and 500mg acetaminophen. So, yes, she is taking 6000-7000mg of acetaminophen per day, in addition to 60+mg of hydrocodone and alcohol. But if you didn't know you would never guess it. I don't see any signs of liver damage. I have been watching.

I am deeply concerned about her health. When I was accused of verbal abuse when I tried to talk to her about it however she probably got what she wanted...me to back off.

My attorney advised me not to get a PI because if WW found out i would be painted as a stalker in court.

Most 2010 prescriptions are from the same doctor. I believe she is taking them at close to twice the prescribed rate however. I don't understand how/why a pharmacy would repeatedly refill a 15 day prescription every 8-9 days. I think there is a mix of doctors in 2009.

I DO worry about 50/50 custody with someone who is taking this much meds and mixing it with alcohol. I don't even want the divorce. I want her to get cleaned up and then we can decide what to do about the marriage but her current course is to destroy our family while chasing highs from drugs, alcohol and A.

sbt,

haven't read your whole thread, so apologize if this already addressed. If all recent rx from same clinician, one option would be for you to call and let clinician know how many she is taking/day. They can't tell you anything about her (HIPPA rules), but you can tell them (or convey message through their nurse) what you have observed. Just don't expect them to tell you what they plan to do about it. Totally a one way flow of info from you to them.

If reputable doc, they will be concerned about risk of liver damage with excess tylenol (which is not really something that can be watched for without blood tests). If its a drug mill, they might not care, but at least you tried. Taking 7000 mg acetaminophen/day is dangerous.

I know the doctor for 2010. My attorney thinks he must know what is going on because the pharmacy shouldn't be able to refill early without his approval. I do agree with you. He needs to know it is being mixed with alcohol. What's the worst that could happen? She gets mad at me? Oh. She goes and has an A? Oh. She freaks out, flies into a rage and hits me? Oh. She files for divorce? Oh, done that too. What card could she possibly play that she hasn't already played?

Hi SBT, i am new to MB and will actually post for the 1st time soon enough. Your situation (sitch) and mine are nearly identical. reading thru ur thread is almost like looking at a mirror minus the substance abuse issues. i too have 5 children, SAHM, EA/PA...

i too have been bombarded with that same message of ILYBNYILWY (I love you but not in love with you) as well as bludgeoned with:
"I hate you,"
"I never loved you,"
"there is no hope for us,"
"we were too young,"
"I never wanted to have sex with you,"

blah, blah, blah... an A is an addiction pure and simple. i am unfortunately having to learn that the hard way and thru reading trying to become an expert at something i had no desire to become an expert in. i'm sure the experienced minds on this forum could tell u the same as what i have said above.

the one area of expertise (other than our cruel sitch's w/ WW's and 5 kids!) where i might help is ur W's prescription drug abuse, and that IS what it is. polysubstance no less: from the narcotic analgesic Vicodin w/ 12-14 tabs/day being inordinately high to the alcohol use to ever her addiction to the OM. i do not know what state u reside in, but the current trend for most states re: prescription drug abuse has been to establish "prescription monitoring programs," (PMP) i.e., prescriptions for controlled substances lik:

Vicodin (hydrocodone),
Percocet (oxycodone),
MS Contin (morphine),
Dilaudid (hydromorphone),
Xanax (alprazolam),
Lyrica (new drug but narcotic analgesic nevertheless, rest assured)
etc,

are tracked state-wide via reportable data sent by the pharmacies in your state when they fill individual prescriptions. you must be a professionally licensed provider in that state in order to register for the program. i live in CT which does have a PMP. it provides you with a full listing of all of the controlled substances written for a patient within a requested time frame (be it 4 months, 6 months or 1 year or whatever u set the range for). the average prescription (rx) for narcs is about 20-30 tabs. @ 2500 tabs/year, that is 120 rx's @ most w/ 20 tabs/rx. or perhaps she is being written for 100 tabs/rx. unless she has a documented condition for which she is under the care of a physician for "chronic pain" then there is no reason for her to be taking that much. it is a major RED flag for me as it is for you. i have nothing but disdain for any provider who writes for such inordinately high numbers of narcotic rx's. it is a veritable prescription mill, charging "co-pays" for rx's. insurance fraud as it were. it speaks of poor morals and a lack of ethics. that provider does HAVE to be concerned w/ accusations of fraud and illicit practices bc that WILL affect their bottomline. don't know if that data from a PMP is accessible by an attorney.

maybe that helps. emilyann is absolutely correct that you can let the clinician/provider know about your wife's abuse of alcohol which when coupled with the Vicodin use (i.e., acetaminophen + alcohol is potentially toxic to your liver) just don't expect any information in return bc of HIPAA (health insurance portability and accountability act) rules like she said. i would be shocked to learn that even a quack would ignore that info. they run a potentially very lucrative business. just be very careful that ur W doesn't get wind of this if u can help it.

it is one thing to express ur concern over ur W's substance abuse but another if she knows that it can and will be used against her. duh.

remember amigo, she is an addict. the A established that @ the least bc that is exactly what an A is. addicts are NOT in their right minds. they are bent to find that fix, whether it's the OM or OW, or a drug, alcohol... they lash out at anyone who stands in their way of what they want. funny enough, seeing that sentence there has struck home for me. am on the receiving end of that right now. ugh. you are not alone. you are a good man, one who was not perfect but realizes what is at stake and loves his W as i do mine. our WW's are not thinking straight. we have to do it for them. it is remarkable how we can find it within us to effect changes in our personal lives and how we do things. i am at fault for many things and have not been the father and husband i could have been especially re: her ENs. but that doesn't mean you can't do it now.

i will be following ur thread. my thoughts and prayers are with you. as an aside, talk about hard! never before could i appreciate why the Holidays makes people depressed. try maintaining good cheer in the face of the circumstances we currently find ourselves in. smile, grin and bear it bc the children are watching. to paraphrase Penny Tupy, it is being courteous in the face of overwhelming circumstances.

Why not get yourself a couple voice activated recorders and/or video cameras (you can return them later). A couple friends too for corroboration AND to magnify the situation. Then...when you knows she's going to be really out there on a trip (pills and alcohol)...

Confront her with an seeming "intervention". (it actually is one but YOU KNOW she's much more likely to go nuts)

State the facts about what you've discovered and get HER reactions and admissions on tape.

You know she'll go NUTS...

That's what drug addicts do once confronted. Especially one TRYING so hard to keep it hidden and ACT in control By confronting her in front of other persons you are exposing her addiction to the light of day WHICH WILL UPSET HER.

Best case...she agrees she needs help and you'll be offering to take her to a drug treatment facility where PROPER doctors will assist her with stepping her down and withdrawal.

Worst case....she goes banana's and you can call the cops and TRY (with your witnesses) to have her committed and a pyschological evaluation.

If she attacks you (or others) ...

YOU CAN HAVE HER ARRESTED and hopefully get her involuntarily (or voluntarily through the court system's diversion program for addicts) committed to a drug treatment program.

There is no "marriage building" to be done here....only a successful committal to a drug treatment program and then a 12 step program.

Your wife is sick and needs her husband's help. The mother of your five children is killing herself with pills and needs help.

Save your marriage or not...later.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - just protect yourself. A friend of mine did something like this alone with his wife and she attacked him AND HERSELF physically and tried to get him arrested. Fortunately, the cops believed him as he had no marks on his hands and he fortunately was able to show them a baggie of 150 or so assorted pills in her purse). The cops committed her and she is clean now...as far as I know. (they did divorce)

Thanks. If my state has a PMP how would I get info out? I know she gets 120 pills at a time. I think filled every 9 days. I think they are 15 day prescriptions. I dont know if she has sources I don't know about.

Regarding talking to the doc, I'm not sure how I prevent her from finding out but I think I need to do it anyway.

It is good to know there are others in situations like mine. In some respects I feel I need to get away from the whole mess (plan b) but I can't do that to my kids and I can't risk losing them in a custody fight. I have asked her to leave but she refuses and uses it against me ("if you knew anything about me you would know I can't leave my kids", etc. ). Also, the last thing my kids need is to be left alone in this to fend for themselves. They need stability from at least one parent.

I was headed toward an intervention at one point but in the process of trying to recruit her friends they turned on me, informed her, and bailed on me. So now I'm trying to decide if I should go thru with an intervention with just me and a professional interventionist. Her family has also refused to participate. They are all afraid of making her angry.

I'm going to go to an alanon meeting this week.

Thank you. I'm finally starting to see that something like this may be my only option if I want to see her get better and have any hope of saving our marriage later. My biggest fear is that I am wrong about the effects the drugs are having on her. Does she truly need them for pain? She had had (at least she says she has) chronic shoulder pain for many years. Hard to rationalize mixing them with a bottle of wine per day, however.

Btw, this just occured to me as well. She may very well have some kind of addiction to sex. Through all of this she keeps telling me she thinks about sex with me all the time and she initiates it almost every night...usually after a couple glasses of wine. I held on to it as some sort of signal that at some level she actually cares about me but more and more it seems to be just physical. Sex is a very emotional thing for me so I couldnt imagine it being anything less then that for her but even for me now it is feeling more and more like a duty. She wants/needs it so I give it to her. I just have such a hard time thinking that it could mean anything to her since she won't/hasn't stopped the divorce. I never thought of it in the context of the addictions until now.

I am sorry to hear that SBT. u and i have even more similarities in some regards. overall ur W's in denial. u r her H and u cannot provide a clear reason as for why she should be taking so much in the way of pain meds? W is obviously hiding something. remarkable that u can be married to someone and not know them completely. i feel same way. couple that w/ the alcohol and then i saw what u posted to Mr. W. overall, ur W appears to be suffering from polysubstance abuse if u will. see it w/ regularity. it does not stop w/ just one agent. it is not just the Vicodin (120 tabs every 15 days or 240/30 days which is nearly 3000/year; it is major major usage) but the alcohol as well and sex too.

i am not an addiction specialist. far from it. but have experience dealing with the type. they need to hit bottom. u have to raise the bottom before they will agree to do something. i am sorry ur W's family is not receptive. my W's neither. (similarity #1). u need a professional's input. the secret is knowing when u r in over your head. this is beyond the paygrade of either one of us. i am not a novice but this is beyond me. someway, somehow u need to get ur W to accept that this is a problem. too bad no friends or family are there for u. my heart goes out to u. would not be the least bit surprised to find professionals out there not just treating drug or alcohol addiction but expanding the scope of their practice to include sex, gambling etc.

we both have 5 children (similarity #2)
we have no help in the event our home situation goes south (similarity #3)
my W feels same about our kids as yours does about ur kids (similarity #4)

as for accessing the PMP, i would ask your lawyer bc suspect HIPAA applies there as well. similarly i would try to find out some of the background of the prescribing MD, i.e., he must obviously be licensed thus your state dept of public health or professional licensing agency in your state is a place to make inquiries. sometimes you can even google the name of the doc w/ "AND" public health and will get hits re: censure/probation etc. if this person is reputable or disreputable then there will be a way to find out. doing ur homework will help how u make ur next move. u r in the midst of a very difficult situation. i know. am there with u. the details may be different but overall sense we are kindred spirits.

in the end u have 5 other people who are now counting u as they are me. it cannot be a good thing to have a parent engaged in risky behavior with OM. our W's are in no condition to recognize that either. we have to do it. i am far from perfect. am an eff up in some regards, but thank God have gotten some insight. it helps.

OK. Been away for a while. Nothing has really changed. My question is this and I have asked it before. Can I still do a plan B with 5 kids and in the middle of D proceedings or is it too late and/or not possible because of kids?

Forget it. The problem with plan B is I can't leave the kids in her care. and I can't take them.

Sbt, I would have your attorney get her out of the house legally. They are in a precarious situation because of her drug use. Your attorney needs to make that happen. The concern I have with your attorney is that he is not being proactive, but REACTIVE. For example, you obviously need to hire a PI to see what she is doing and he told you not to do it. Even though you might not be able to use his evidence in court, you could very well get evidence that could be used in court without ever bringing up the PI.

Does she go driving while she is drunk or high? If she does, I would strongly suggest you call the police on her.

Most attorneys will knock themselves out trying to take the easier, softer way out because their main concern is facilitating an easy divorce, not the well being of your family.

Do hire the PI. I promise you will find out information faster than you could on your own. And yes, photos from a licensed investigator can be used in most states in court.

Oughta know, I had them. PI caught wxh with ow leaving a hotel at 6 am. Worked nicely in court.

OK. It's been a while since I've posted. I'll give the highlights.

The last several months have been an emotional roller coaster on several fronts.

Re. drugs
I filed a complaint against her doctor and called the clinic manger. Coincidentally, he can no longer prescribe to her. She was/is extremely angry at me for "slandering" her to her friends and family because she was "taking this under her doctor's supervision." She was up to 120 vicodin every 7 days. I'm glad I got it stopped. She now claims to be off it all together and I have no proof otherwise.

Re affair
I believe she has had continued contact with the main OM but have no proof after April - where I have a text message where she told him she loved him. She keeps a TextFree account on her phone but says she uses that just to contact her attorney (she filed for divorce last october). I have no reason to believe she isn't still in contact with OM even if it isn't physical.

She has been waffling on the divorce. We were supposed to have a pre-trial hearing back in June but it had to be rescheduled until October because she hadn't gotten anything done (custody evaluation, chemical dependency evaluation, psychiatric evaluation, etc.). The court was upset that it was being delayed.

Two weeks ago she sent in the paperwork to start the custody evaluation and through her atty asked me to send in the retainer. Later that day she sent me a text asking me not to send in the retainer $$. Then again later that day she sent me a text telling me to send it in because "it didn't matter." This was a Friday. I waited until Monday and asked her what I should do with the retainers. She said "I texted my attorney and told him to hold off for now." I said "OK. I won't send it in."

This put us back in limbo land. In the mean time we operate like a family. We sleep in the same bed, are sexually active, hug, kiss, talk, go on dates, etc. We talk mostly about the kids because I change the subject when she gets in her moods and wants to blame me for everything that has gone wrong in our relationship.

This morning (our anniversary BTW) I asked her to dinner. She responded with an assault (out of the blue) about how she can't talk to me and is done "beating her head against the same brick wall." She said she is going out with a friend tonight instead of dinner with me. I wouldn't have a problem with this if it wasn't our anniversary and if her friend wasn't recently divorced due to an affair she had in her own marriage a year ago.

Anyway, I find myself not knowing what to do. I don't think I can expose again because I have no recent proof she is actually seeing her OM. Although I think she is still in contact via texting. She is extremely angry because I exposed her A last year to her friends and family and most of them don't talk to her anymore - she blames me for that. Part of me thinks I should expose again but I'm not sure what I would be exposing.

Through all of this she has never really been emotionally invested in our relationship. I have thought about re-exposure and plan B but I don't know how to do plan B with kids. My atty says that if I leave I would probably end up losing the kids if she moved forward with the D.

Just the white tips of the waves but it should be enough to get things going here again.

I am curious why you aren't getting divorced? Why was that put off? There is obviously nothng to save here so why the complacence? I would not pay her retainer, but pay your attorney to get off his dead [censored] and get her removed from the home. It's not like you don't have evidence of her drug abuse and unfitness as a mother.

Plan A is not appropriate for an addict, so there is no reason to wait for plan b. Get her out and go into plan b.

Ask her to get out. If she says no, then aSk your Atty if it would be too much trouble to get off his dead [censored] and get her out?