This is why getting a counselor with MB experience is so important. Recovery after an affair is a very narrow path. If you are the least bit interested in not getting divorced, I would recommend couseling with the Harleys, doing their online course, and possibly going to an MB weekend. I'm not pressuring you to recover your marriage. It is your right to leave after what your husband has done. However, if you aren't sure that is the course you want to take, then it would probably be in your best to actively work on your marriage. There is a difference between holding your husband accountable for his actions and punishing him. I understand your love bank is in the red. The quicker you allow him to meet your ENs, the less you will feel this way.


It's probably a little of both. That's typical of most marriages. Dr. Harley lays out a plan on how to address this situation. Besides, I don't know how you could have possibly had a happy marriage with all the time spent apart. You couldn't have possibly met each other's needs sufficiently with the amount of time you are spending apart.


That needs to stop. He shouldn't be getting angry with you after what he has done. Just understand that most of it is his own frustrations. He's not mad at you but rather frustrated that he can't just "fix" this. Men are fixers and get frustrated when it is taking them a long time to get something done.

He wants to be praised for sleeping on the floor instead of the bed they f%$^%ed in.


I hate to admit this, but I do the same thing. I pat myself on the back. I have been showing off and flexing my body lately (I have recently lost about 60 lbs and am pretty ripped now). I guess I am a little needy too. But also, my wife very rarely says anything positive to me. She's hypercritical. She NEVER initiates SF, and it's like I have to beg her for it. It's not fun. I feel like I am emotionally STARVED for admiration and SF. I feel that I have to take care of meeting these needs myself because she doesn't seem to want to. That probably turns off my wife even more. Well, I have some resentment for her not meeting my needs. I am less motivated to meet hers. Then she starts feeling neglected. Well, in my mind, if she wouldn't neglect me, she wouldn't feel neglected. Obviously, I am still having trouble in my marriage. My wife is no longer wayward, but we obviously aren't actively applying MB principles, and that mainly because she's anti-MB because she hated that I exposed her. So this is what happens if you don't follow the MB plan. Is this what you want? Or do you want to say, "I take some responsibility for the state of my marriage pre-affair, and I am going to change because I want to show my children a positive example of a marriage unlike my father showed to me." That is why I haven't had any kids yet.


Negativity will get you nowhere. The longer you drift in uncertainly and do not follow the MB plan, the less likely you are going to recover your marriage. The negativity will only hurt you. I can tell you, back after my WW's affair, I really wanted to save my marriage. I worked hard at it for about a good 2 years. After 2 more years of not getting my needs met, I'm starting to feel a little more ambivalent about it again. So, maybe I'm not the best person to take advice from. But then again, maybe I am. Don't allow yourself to continue drifting without a plan. Get a plan, and commit to it.

I just told your husband not to move out without a court order. If you don't want your husband to stay in the house, file for legal separation. But just realize you will be starting the road toward divorce if you do that. Separation will help you disconnect from him. So, even though he screwed up big time, I'm not going to let him throw away his custodial rights and help to facilitate a divorce he doesn't want on the premise that separation might help his marriage. It won't, and it will hurt him legally in any future divorce case.

You have every right to choose to divorce him, but he is under no obligation to help you end his marriage. His obligations are to enforce NC w/ OW, set up proper boundaries between himself and other women, avoid love busting behavior, and try and meet your ENs, even if you aren't motivated to meet his right now. You are entitled to just compensation for his mistakes, but that isn't having to do whatever you ask of him. You shouldn't just forgive and forget, but you should not punish him for his actions either. The affair is 100% his fault, but at this time, I would look inward and contemplate your role in the state of the marriage. You had said looking back, it wasn't a great marriage anyway. Well, you guys had no chance to have a good marriage with the lifestyle you were living. Couples need 15 hours of undivided attention, and that is impossible if you are living on separate continents half the time. I would also examine your marital boundaries and make sure no one can start meeeting your ENs and influence your decisions during this vulnerable time.

Again, your WH should NOT move out, and I am telling him not to without a court order. If you want him to move out, do the work yourself to legally remove him from the home.

I side with you, Seriously with this one. It's coercion, to have to be around him until you are ready to. It's sleeping with the rapist. It's catering to him in a way that hurts,...deep down,...and will for a while. Go slow. You don't have to make anything legal -- and I wouldn't recommend it. Just time away,...stay in contact with him via email, phone, planned visits for a while,....share feelings, make a plan together,..share your thoughts about your marriage and history, together,...reminisce about the good parts,...let him lean in and reconnect, but on YOUR terms. Healing FIRST (you need it!),...let him take the kids for a couple of weekends, even -- you need that, too!...THEN recovery with the 15hr UA. I know, right now, that 15 hours stuff can feel pretty darn creepy to go there. Right now,...he feels dangerous,...unsafe,...down right criminal. I know.

Hear everyone's words on this, but,..in the end, do what feels right for you.

(((cyberhug, seriously))

IMO -- you'd have to be a saint or a doormat to allow a rapist back in your house and in your bed,....without your WILLING consent,...and that's JUST what he is to you, right now. He got his la-ti-da time while you got stuck having to be the responsible one, with PROPER boundaries, mind you,..thinking about your family, your kids,...and not so much about yourself. I know. I've been there. You were neglected, taken for granted, taken advantage of to the highest degree. What makes him think he can just waltz back in to the house after that? And,..expect to have you praise him for "being home again?!,...all better, now,....love me,...praise me,..tell me you still want me,...tell me I'm doing a good job with meeting your needs?!... Ack!!!! There's so much that needs to happen before you can even GO THERE!

Sorry,...this riles me. BIG TIME. My H is also a high ranking exec who has frequently traveled the world, while I stayed home with the kids -- basically a single-parent, really. Always longing for the family time we didn't get, but here and there, and not getting a breather for myself, most of the time. To me, he GOT all the fun and what did I get? I got an A,....an A where he was addicted to the sexually charged, over-the-top, aggressive, ego-stoking ATTENTION and praise from her,...and comes home, thinking he can just get that from me after all of that?! Get this,...I did (Plan A). To be the neglected one for so long and be asked to give back after that,...it just feels so wrong, in so many ways. Heal first. Get your footing,...then.... approach it cautiously,...with a good (positive) self-protective, self-supportive mantra. Know what your boundaries are. Share them. Draw the line in the sand!

Resentment. No fun!

Sorry,....

Thanks all of you.

I appreciate that you get where I'm at... even GloveOil. I know it's not great to be negative, bitter, and resentful, and I appreciate you all not judging. I know I'll need to get a handle on that.

Someone said it was ok to feel whatever feelings I have, so that helps me (in between beating myself up for not being more Christ-like toward my H).

I know the fight is now on whether he gets to come home or move out. It's just so f#$@ing infuriating that these past years I have been BEGGING him to leave this job, and let us all move back home, but he wouldn't. Now that he is willing to, it's because of these sh#$%ty circumstances that he created, not because of my desires, and I don't want it this way!

I didn't want to move to the country we lived in for the past three years. He promised me that the second I was unhappy, that we would leave. I had a panic attack upon arrival, I told myself I'd try to go 6 months.

But I sucked it up for almost three years (I left at the end of July). Being away from friends, family, church, hobbies, fair and equal treatment, opportunities for my children... it was very difficult. I was depressed sure, but I also tried to make the best of it. I worked on a novel in my spare time, took Japanese classes, made friends, tried my best to cook good food with the meager offerings, decorated the house, found activities for my kids to be involved in. Even tried to get pregnant.

Though he said we'd leave whenever I was unhappy, the plan (whether happy or not) was to stay for 2 years. The EA started at 25 month mark. Ggggrrrrrr.

At about that time, I told him that I wasn't happily married. It happened on my birthday, when I felt, as usual, totally unimportant to him. H just pretended like that conversation never happened. He told me he checked out emotionally after that.

I internalized it, thought it was my issue. I tried to work on things about myself. Did I mention that he f*(&ed her for the first time while I was recovering from a boob job?

He may be the first H in history to do that.

That's the reason why I stayed gone in Jan and the first bit of February... trying to make myself look and feel sexier. And I know he makes it sound like I was averse to sex... can I count all the ways that's untrue? 3 times a week minimum, oral sex, filmed sex, sex in the shower, any position fine, etc. etc. My only issue was self consciousness about my breasts, which I made a plan to resolve.

Now I look down at my body, and I see these breasts that cost me my marriage, and I want to take a knife to myself.

So anyhooo... , here we are. Sorry back on the moving in or out issue. Now that it's his idea, he's going to give it all up, job, money, career prospects, the ego stroking, sex with skanks, and join us back home.

When he was here for October, it was so great. I was finally back in the US, with church, friends, etc. etc. Happy* (except missing him!). When he came, I wanted him to see that I wasn't just a depressive. I think in a way, I had inadvertently done a Plan A on him. He was finally there in the flesh, and I was meeting his EN, etc. But it wasn't fake, I was thrilled to have him, and was hoping that he'd realize he should choose us.

When he came back in November ready to end his A, and said, "I've been with someone else," I died inside.

I thought to myself, it happened after I left in July. It's all my fault, I'm such a fool for ever leaving him for so long!

But to hear that it had been going on since February, while I was living in that GFORSAKEN country made me want to rip my hair out.

I feel like I have already lost years of my life.

He had no mercy on me, he disrespected me as a human being. He let me go down this fertility road this fall, knowing that I was refusing certain tests (STD, Pap), and he never said a GD thing.

I told him I thought we were "playing with fire" being apart so long. Our oldest asked me if H and I were divorced (kids at school had asked). I told him--I was heartbroken. Did it change anything? No. Did the plan change? No. I told him I didn't care how much money we had or if he quit without having a job. I guess he just wasn't ready to give the OW up.

Ok, I guess now I'm just venting. I haven't been so good at processing or accepting the truths of the past or my new reality.

So back to moving out... we've been separated before (August, September, and the past 3 weeks). But that first chunk of time was when I thought we were on the same team, missing each other desperately, but doing the right thing financially for our future.

Now I see from phone records that he called her right when me and the girls got on the plane, and had her in our apartment whenever he could.

In the past when we were only physically separated, he took the first chance he got to mess around with someone else... he alludes to some vulnerability on that point as well if he were to move out now. That's not good enough for me.

I've learned that we are all wired for infidelity (yes myself included), but I just hate this idea that I have to be policing, and the nearest warm body to make sure this doesn't happen again.

What about personal integrity? Joseph of the Bible "got himself out" when Potipher's wife tried to get him. I know H can be faithful if he is locked in a room for the rest of his life, but what about basic moral agency? Doing what you're supposed to be doing "even in the dark"?

Ok, so I know this is a MB website, and I'm not arguing the logic here. Letting him back in is better for the M. But letting him back in assumes I want to save this M, still not so sure.

When my parents started their awful and horrendous D, they both refused to leave the house for months. It was AWFUL. The house became a bitter, a horrid, often silent battlefield. My mom told me to say "Have fun on your dates" when my Dad would leave. I just wanted to stay in my room. I stopped living with parents before finishing High School.

If WH comes back, I feel like, for me, it's going to feel like the same thing. I've created this dream house, this sanctuary (for him too).

But now I am no longer going to feel secure in this space. I'm afraid my impulse will be just to hide away in my room, and know that he is lurking around somewhere waiting to give me all the things I used to be begging for, but now will only resent.

But if he's not here, I see myself doing all the things I have been doing, spiritually with the kids, cooking, plus more. I want to start working out (I'm 115 lbs btw in case anyone was wondering why he wanted me to go the gym so bad).

And I think I would be happy for him to come with me to get the girls after school, go to the park with them, help me prepare dinner, go bowling, help me put them to bed, maybe watch a movie together and play a board game?

But then go... at least for a while.

I don't want him there when I'm getting dressed or putting on make-up, or reading a book.

Is that playing with fire? Sounds like what I can handle for now.

Thanks all for your thoughts, wisdom, or "I've been theres."

Ok, I guess I already know what the tribe is going to say on this.

The next question is, how can I get my mind right about him in the house?

How can I let him back in and still be the usual happy person in the house?

Do I just pretend? Ignore him? Interact during specific hours?

How did you all do it?

@Loveisachoicefor me --- nope,...there isn't one (I already admitted that) -- so shoot me. Go right ahead. I'll pop right back up, again.

Can't stand posters thinking they're all righteous with the MB stuff. We've ALL read the articles and books,...and most of us are still learning and beginning,...even with understanding of it. But, truly, seriously, DOES NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING SHE FEELS UNCOMFORTABLE WITH,...whether or not it's the MB way. That's my point. This is a very fragile time. He is NOT entitled to having his affair, and then having his wife just accept him back in the house with open arms. SCREW THAT! She can put up the "no fly zone" (for a while,...until she's ready) if she feels like it,...and not have to be legal about it. She CAN and SHOULD be calling the shots with this.

Seriously,...if you are uncomfortable with anything, say it. DO NOT FORCE YOURSELF TO ANY UNCOMFORTABLE PLACE! Tell him to bugger off, while in the house. Tell him to sleep in the dog house, literally. Why not!? If he wants to be home, you have every right,..... EVERY right to call the shots.

IMO -- He should be happy (no,...forever GRATEFUL) you even LOOK in his direction. I know, it takes every ounce of strength in those early days, to do just that, without feeling that painful, painful, ...hard to breathe,...unbearable agony...,10-fold.

Wayturds are the meanest, cruelest, most selfish creatures. Believe me, I still cringe when I think about some of the things my H did to us while he was foggy. I am sorry for all you have been through...

((seriously))

This is going to be kinda scattered because there have been several posts and I am trying to catch up, but I just want to echo what Jim said to you earlier..about your LB$ being in the red and your earlier post is riddled with more lovebusters on the part of SWS...he definitely has A LOT of work to do...but to be fair, he's not going to go from A-Z overnight!

I can identify with much of what you said, I went to Plan FU on my dday. I believe my LB$ was very low and my H had also away for a few weeks prior to and also following, since I had kicked him out (which can really fuel the detachment/feelings of not wanting to try). Oh! and my H is also an admiration junkie...I would guess many WSs are...

I would just encourage you to hold off on making any decisions until he comes back home and you spend some UA time together. Can you two make a coaching session with Steve? I can't tell you how much I think that would help you two.

Anyway, just take it one step at a time and don't worry about meeting his ENs for admiration for now. You certainly DO NOT have to admire him for any of his actions to repair the damage he has done. And as an aside, since this is one of my H's top ENs, I have learned a lot about it and there is more to it than praising and complimenting. IDK if that makes you feel better or not ~ for me, it did...

Hang in there!

I would compare it to the feeling one might have to facing the killer of a child....in your home, no less!

That's okay. Let it all out here. Yes, your WH wasn't a great husband for a while now. In addition to living apart, you guys also did not practice the POJA. If you guys were practicing that back then, you wouldn've have moved away to wherever. Now he's probably willing to POJA. If he agrees to the concept, you don't have to worry about being put in this situation again. Not using POJA builds up resentment between couples. I'm sure you understand that. Just come and vent here. But the past is that, the past. It is there for us to learn from, not dwell on. The whole job situation was a mistake he made on his part. But that mistake cannot be undone. I would focus on how you can prevent situation like that in the future.


I'm starting to get a better picture of your M now. You stopped meeting his need for admiration and SF (the way he liked) because you weren't happy that he strongarmed you into moving away for his job. He lovebusted you for with his independent behavior and then you responded by meeting his needs less and in a less fulfilling way. It is certainly understandable. I am not motivated to meet my wife's needs when she is lovebusting me. It's only human nature.


I'm sure you know now what a mistake it is to internalize things. And no, your WH would not be the first to do that. unfortunately.


I understand how you feel. I am actually jealous of that kind of sex life. But it wasn't your breasts that caused these problems, it was lack of POJA and poor marital boundaries.


It's better late than never. Many times we don't realize what he have until we lose it. Many of the BSs never actually have their WS's admit it.


I know how it feels to feel like your marriage was a lie for so long. I can certainly sympathize.


Like many attractive, successful, powerful people, pride did him in. Hopefully this truly humbled him and he's learned his lesson.


Separation was a bad idea then and it still is now. I think the allusion to his vulnerability is just an understanding of his fallibility. I don't think he would screw up again, I just think he has realized that he CAN screw up, so he better keep on the straight and narrow path in the future.


You don't have to police if both agree to employ proper marital boundaries and both of you live open, transparent lives. The idea is that you couldn't have an affair if you wanted to without the other person easily finding out. The point is you wouldn't worry about future infidelity if you practice your marriage the MB way. As far as personal integrity, it's all about not putting yourself in the position to be tempted. Why was Joseph getting proposition anyway? Was he not practicing proper marital boundaries. I can speak from a man's perspective and tell you that turning down sex is extremely hard, so you better not put yourself in the position where you need to turn it down because eventually you will fail. I think your WH has learned that the hard way.


I'm not saying you have to determine to take him back now, but the saying around here is give 100% up until the point you decide to give 0% (get divorced). Otherwise you are just cheating yourself and your marriage, and you may regret it in the future. If you give 100% all the time until you decide to divorce, you have nothing to regret because you tried all you could.


That's just divorce. It is unavoidable. If you don't want your kids to go through that, don't be awful to each other. It was awful for you because your dad was going around having dates while being married. You don't have that issue at home.


Sounds like a good situation to employ the POJA. But he shouldn't bend on living at home. And you shouldn't bend about wanting some space to cope. Sit down like adults, discuss what you can and cannot handle, and make arrangements that are accomodating of you both. Have rules and safe words in place ahead of time, so that if things start heating up, they can be quickly diffused. Avoiding each other does not solve the issue. You two need to learn how to coexist, communicate, and work with each other. This is the perfect opportunity to put some MB principles in practice and see exactly how willing your WH is to commit to making this a marriage that you can be happy in again. I would try and involve the Harleys via phone counseling for some of these conditions because I am sure theses negotiations could get somewhat contentious.

Listen, I completely understand how you feel. However, I want you to look at it this way. You have chilren with this man. You have a long history with this man. You have had your problems in the past. He has unilaterally acted on moving the family and taking a job in a far away place. He hasn't employed the POJA to take your feelings into consideration. Now he professes that he will. This could be the opportunity to get the marriage you always wanted. What better person to have a marriage you have always wanted than with the father of your children. Also, most people don't come into marriage willing to follow MB principles. It usually takes something like this to get people to see that they need the MB principles. Your WH is probably more willing to use MB principles than most other men you would meet out there in the world. I promise that you can be extremely happy with your WH if you both follow the MB program. It will just take some hard work. This could be your opportunity to get the relationship you have always wanted, your opportunity to fix what was always wrong in your marriage. I know it sucks that it would take something like this to be the catalyst, but better this than living in an unhappy marriage the rest of your life.

POJA.

Figure out what you need beforehand. Discuss the conditions with Steven Harley or Jennifer Chalmers before or when he comes back.

It's not righteousness, Daisy, it's statistically proven that separation leads to divorce and not reconciliation.

Even if it leads to a short term reconciliation, it opens the door to vulnerability to further damage on the part of both spouses.

seriously, please don't make the mistake of thinking Christ never got ticked. (Can't say 'PO'd' in the same sentence ) Christ hated sin, and Christ did get angry. Don't beat yourself up over being angry and feeling betrayed over this grievous sin against you and your M. What happened to you is the epitome of betrayal.

POJA is all fine and dandy,...but, I scoff at the notion that the WS gets any fair deal, until they make some deposits. And, by that, I mean,...LET THE WOUNDED PERSON REST! LET THEM SCREAM, if need be. IT HURTS. Let the WS talk to the hand, if necessary. And, NOT expect the BS to get up, walk around, serving the chap sandwiches on a plate when our legs have been broken in several places. We need to be pampered,...nursed back to health (however, it need be),...initially. Once we are on the mend and once we have secure EP's in place,...then, and only then, should the BS be expected to give to the WS or be willing to do a POJA. That includes having to play "nice", cater to their self-esteem and admiration wishes, WS not wanting reminders, etc. There is NOTHING worse than having to cry in silence and agony or not getting our privacy and peace from the scoundrel until we can get our bearings together emotionally after such a fallout. This is especially true, I think, when the BS was in the red prior to the affair.

POJA, says it's fair. That only works if both partners are starting out with a fair amount in each other's L-Bank,..or have at least SOMETHING in the bank to give. Not-ah,...right now, it isn't fair. Not in the slightest.

This is the part of the MB program (having to give EN's to the cheater when you can barely stand to look at them, when you are still raw and sore,...and feeling the injustice of it by the things that you were lied to about, while they got their kicks,....feeling the instability of your new reality, hating it, feeling unsafe to care,...unsure, you name it) is the ONLY sour issue I have about it. I understand the concept (looks great on paper!),...but, I truly feel if not given proper healing conditions, initially, the BS CANNOT, and will not, be able to find the love they need to fill their hearts again,...to be open to it again...and be willing,...fully willing, to give to the WS without feeling they are being taken advantage of in some form.

Right now,...the BS needs to be pampered. They are broken and they were broken by the act of the other...NOT by the state of the marriage. However,...if they were mistreated prior to being broken (shoved in a box,...tussled about, taken for granted, prior to it),...even worse!

Some might go off, saying I'm too blaming about this,...but,..HELLO,...It was a crime upon the other, there IS blame, you bet there is. I'm SICK and tired of hearing about the BS being responsible in ANY way for a WS's act of wrong doing. In some cases,...repeated wrong doing. The WS ruined the marriage by THEIR choosing,...the WS had NO CHOICE IN IT. They were hurt by it,...REALLY HURT,...and to be asked to step in and clean it up, while they can barely get up off of the floor,...without pointing the finger at the perpetrator?! There needs to be accountability for that!

Haven't seen this necassarily argued, Daisy...


You think people here don't know that? I was in the Red... deep in the red. DEEP.


Because, you know... life is always fair. This is taker talk.


This is a demonstrable lack of understanding on how this all works.

You see, if you engage the WS, and you make LB$ deposits, and you don't have your needs met... if the WS refuses to come around, then you will fall out of love with the WS, and it will be easier to end the M without waffling. If the WS does not come around, does not avoid LBs, meet ENs, implement UA, PoJA, and PoRH... then the BS has all the ammo they need to separate righteously... plus ten.


Not in total disagreement, but replace pampered with PROTECTED. Protected from further LBs and from further dishonesty.


What you will often see is a new poster referring to unmet EN's being the "cause" of transgression. No, it was a contribution to a M that was vulnerable. Over, and over, and over again it is stated that it is poor boundaries on the part of the WS that finally leads to an A. Often times, these poor boundaries are fed by the belief by the WS that they would "never cheat."


It's all misdirected and misrepresented here, Daisy. Bad day? Post up on your thread a bit!